Registration Fees: A debate

The Istanbul

This thread has been prompted by regular 'bitching' posts about tournament registration fees and the price of sausages and pizzas on here.

Q: What do players feel are fair registration fees to pay out for a tournament where organisers:
a. advertise and promote the event;
b. provide professional dealers;
c. provide a venue;
d. provide food


My answer (informed by years of self-deals in pubs etc and my conviction that people are entitled to make a fair days profit for a fair days work) is:-
I believe that a % of 10%, subject to a reasonable minimum charge is fair where prize payouts are 100%. Obviously smaller buy-ins would have fixed costs regardless that have to be recouped. Would we rather be in a situation where the guys currently running excellent tourneys decide that its all too much work for too little money and give it up leaving us reminiscing about the great games that were run for the price of a few pints while trying to watch drunks at self-dealt games haplessely trying to slip aces??

I also think it would make commercial sense for organisers to SPELL OUT payouts and related costs for a while to make people cop on to value (eg 'we took in €2,000 in reg fees today...our dealers cost us €600....room costs are €300...food is €500...leaving us with €600 profit....thanks for your support...please come again:).

Look forward to responses.

carfax

NSPC;
Pre-Event Promotion; €1,500
Venue; €2,500
Dealers; €4,000 minimum
Equipment Hire/ Transport of Tables etc; €700 minimum
Total Budget Estimate is €9k

€7 registration fee with 400 players mean we take in €2,800 so it runs at a loss of €6,200.....Obvisouly this tournament is an exception as it basically could not be run to the same standard without the sponsorship of Devilfish Poker who haven't even launched yet but have been good enough to help us offer this tournament to students (many of whom have done nothing but moan from day one tbh).

mickste

Stephen, are you personally going to lose 6,200 euro on the NSPC?

5starpool

I think what Stephen is saying is that if he did not get support from a sponsor (which he has) that he would have to charge a much higher reg fee to run the tourney otherwise he would make a 6200 loss. I am assuming that the sponsor is making up this shortfall in exchange for publicity.

LuckyLloyd

By the way, I would be happy to go without the suasage rolls at the break if it means a cheaper reg fee. Who's with me?

BIG-SLICK-POKER

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

By the way, I would be happy to go without the suasage rolls at the break if it means a cheaper reg fee. Who's with me?

Our hotel expenses are huge to run these events .


I mean u take what we had on the weekend

€35 reg this included
Dealers all tables
2 Dinner Breaks @ Soup and sambos €8.50pp and Hot Dish 12.95 pp so take nearly 22 out of the reg and see wats left

Hotels are getting more expensive and really the minimum charge we can have on games is the Following with dealers and food
With hotels charging these prices we feel that the players would be better off gettting thee own food for festivals but for future events here is what our charges will be


Big Slick 2008 - PRICES

€20 Rebuy €5 Reg inc Dealers last Table @ Pub Games

€50 + €10 Dealers Inc (No food )

Super Sat €100 Reg inc (No Food)

€100 + €20 Dealers Inc (Tea Coffee Break)

€200 + €20 Dealers Inc (Tea Coffee Break)

€300 + €30 Dealers Inc (Tea Coffee Hot Food Break)

€500 + €50 Dealers Inc ( 3 day game )
Day 1 - Tea Coffee Break
Day 2 Hot Dish - 2 chioces
Day 3 - Tea coffee Break

€1000 + €100 Dealers Inc (3 Day Game)
Day 1 Hot Food Break
Day 2 Hot Dish
Day 3 Soup and Samos

bohsman

I am sure most of the casinos around Ireland would happily rent out their poker rooms and provide food etc for a fraction of the cost hotels are charging.

Goodluck2me

bohsman wrote: »

I am sure most of the casinos around Ireland would happily rent out their poker rooms and provide food etc for a fraction of the cost hotels are charging.

surely they would want some of the cash action though, most of them wouldnt be big enough either id imagine.

DEmeant0r

goodluck2me wrote: »

surely they would want some of the cash action though, most of them wouldnt be big enough either id imagine.

Well then how about renting a few casinos that are close to each other for bigger events? For example Fitz and Luke, they are minutes away. Communication to TD about who got knocked out at what time and what position will prob be a bit of a hassle though.

Not sure how viable that is, but I'd imagine it'd be cheaper than renting conference rooms in hotel though.

carfax

5starpool wrote: »

I think what Stephen is saying is that if he did not get support from a sponsor (which he has) that he would have to charge a much higher reg fee to run the tourney otherwise he would make a 6200 loss. I am assuming that the sponsor is making up this shortfall in exchange for publicity.

Yeah I shouldn't really have discussed our costs so hope I don't get in trouble with Karl H on this one ....Anyone can work out these costs though, I mean you can ring up the hotel and ask how much it costs to rent the room, and everyone knows that dealers gets 10 squids per hour minimum....The costs I didn't include there would be the tables that we own, main event tournament chips, side game chips, laptop, projector(s), tournament clock....

5starpool

If you want me to edit out specific amounts then let me know, although that cat seems firmly out of that bag though.

bops

everybody knows that tourney organisers don't make a real profit from the tourney reg fees at festivals. The truth is that they have no real intention of making $$ on these fees. The real money is made at these festivals on the cash tables in rake.

The way live poker is heading here, as one can easily see in the large fall of tournament entries, the answer is 0% reg fees. Soon a smart tourney organiser will cop on to this, they will get the numbers required to make the $$ tables profitable, and outweigh the loss of the reg fees. They will get the crowd, and therefore the rake

connie147

bops wrote: »

everybody knows that tourney organisers don't make a real profit from the tourney reg fees at festivals. The truth is that they have no real intention of making $$ on these fees. The real money is made at these festivals on the cash tables in rake.

The way live poker is heading here, as one can easily see in the large fall of tournament entries, the answer is 0% reg fees. Soon a smart tourney organiser will cop on to this, they will get the numbers required to make the $$ tables profitable, and outweigh the loss of the reg fees. They will get the crowd, and therefore the rake

Bops,
Every tourney organiser knows that there is no profit left over from a reg fee (unless of course the entry is €1,000+) thats held in a venue outside a casino. Yes the cash table rake is used to help cover the rest of the costs and have a profit to show for the work put in.

I dont ever see the day when a decent tourney with dealers is put on reg free. Its just too risky.

Connie

carfax

bops wrote: »

everybody knows that tourney organisers don't make a real profit from the tourney reg fees at festivals. The truth is that they have no real intention of making $$ on these fees. The real money is made at these festivals on the cash tables in rake.

The way live poker is heading here, as one can easily see in the large fall of tournament entries, the answer is 0% reg fees. Soon a smart tourney organiser will cop on to this, they will get the numbers required to make the $$ tables profitable, and outweigh the loss of the reg fees. They will get the crowd, and therefore the rake

Agree with the first highlighted part Bops but as regards the second part that tourney organiser would go broke very quickly, don't see it happening mate as we have looked at all sorts of ways to cut costs and this just would not be viable for a large field, dealer dealt poker tournament....

Without sponsorship on a major festival of poker your minimum reg fee for a main event is €50 per player to make it any way worth your while with months of preparation, promotion and organisation. I just can't see us (for example) being able to turn our noses up to €30k in registration fees for this year's IPO and that tournament is only possible with heavy sponsorship.....

I could see some casino clubs being able to run small tournaments with no reg fees but why would they when tournament players are willing to pay something towards the service they receive.

As a tournament player (albeit in temporary retirement) I have no problems paying a 10% reg fee up to about €300 for a good structured tournament (what I mean by that is that imo the EPT €8,000/ WSOP $10,000 events should have a maximum juice of €300 per player with some very decent food put on for that price)....

VEGAS NIGHTS

I realise that traditionally players see the reg fee as a % of the buy in and are very much set on 10% being fair. Usually if players are asked "what do you think is a fair reg fee"? The answer is nearly always automaticly "10%".

If a tournament is dealer delt then the longer that tournament lasts the more it's going to cost to run due to wage bill. A €100 freezout with 5,000 chips and 15min blinds will cost a lot less to run than a €100 freezout with 10,000 chips and 30min blinds. So is it fair to say that only a 10% reg fee is acceptable and 15% is not???. Or perhaps a €100 freezout 2-day event might cost €20 or even €25 to run.

I ran a game yesterday which was €100 + €15 Freezout

45 runners @ €15.......€675
SNG reg fees............€135

Wage bill.........€360
Room hire.......€150
sundries........€30

Laeving €270 pre-tax profit.

If I charged "10%" it would leave €45 pre-tax profit.

This game didn't include any food at all. Players paid for their own lunch from the venues carvery.


My point is that I don't think a blanket % of the buy in is a fair representation of a fair reg fee.