STT's, advice required

eagle eye

I have been playing STT's online for two years.
I will admit not to having a clue about bankroll management for most of that two years, for example I regularly came home after a night on the town and blew my bankroll, and also played way above the level I should have played at with the bankroll i had at that time for Poker.

I have played over 2,000 stt's.

I have not used PT or any of that equipment.

My stats differ from site to site, but I am averaging between 4% and 14% roi on different sites. I used to think that 15 buy-ins was a good setup but I don't know if thats enough.

Funnily I have a much higher roi at higher levels, in one instance I have a 75% roi, but only over 25 games.

I now wish to take it a lot more seriously.

So any advice will be appreciated, such as how many buy-ins should I have for the level I am playing at, what sites are best for stt's, if i am playing 300 plus games per week, what sort of rb should i be looking for, etc.

ArmaniJeanss

I play 10handed $20s & $30s.

I know that the 15 to 20 times buy-in is generally recommended but I don't think its enough to be honest.

I've played just under 2000 games and am running at 17% ROI, but in those ~2000 there has been a run of 70 games without a 1st, 40 games without a 1st or 2nd, and 17 games without a 1st, 2nd or 3rd.

And during my worst run there was a 45game (i.e. $1K) downswing.

max_power

30 bi's + imo, baaad things can happen.

dannydiamond

Yes get a good rakeback deal.
i'd reccommend working off at least a 40 buyin BR.
Completely ignore any stats you have for small samples of games.

BIGMICKG

eagle eye wrote: »

I have been playing STT's online for two years.
I will admit not to having a clue about bankroll management for most of that two years, for example I regularly came home after a night on the town and blew my bankroll, and also played way above the level I should have played at with the bankroll i had at that time for Poker.

I have played over 2,000 stt's.

I have not used PT or any of that equipment.

My stats differ from site to site, but I am averaging between 4% and 14% roi on different sites. I used to think that 15 buy-ins was a good setup but I don't know if thats enough.

Funnily I have a much higher roi at higher levels, in one instance I have a 75% roi, but only over 25 games.

I now wish to take it a lot more seriously.

So any advice will be appreciated, such as how many buy-ins should I have for the level I am playing at, what sites are best for stt's, if i am playing 300
plus games per week, what sort of rb should i be looking for, etc.

300+ games a week!!!??? wow thats a lot! i assume ur playing fulltime and playing turbos?? how many tables do u play at once?

Requiem4adream

Bigmick is the man to listen to for sng advice eagle eye!! *although Mick did you say you played non-turbos mainly?

BIGMICKG

Requiem4adream wrote: »

Bigmick is the man to listen to for sng advice eagle eye!! *although Mick did you say you played non-turbos mainly?

thx man lol. i prefer non turbos cos the variance is so much lower and its easier to have a much higher av. roi. although i do play alot of turbos cos the non turbos just dont fill fast enough

luckylucky

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

I play 10handed $20s & $30s.

I know that the 15 to 20 times buy-in is generally recommended but I don't think its enough to be honest.

Not sure where you saw 15 to 20 buy-ins recommended, you can easily lose this on a bad run in sngs.

A lot depends on your aims. If you don't want to have your bankroll at risk but you are not reliant on your bankroll for income then I would be looking for about the 40 buy-in mark or higher like dannydiamond suggested. If you were a full-time player you need more again. As a full-time player I generally look to have around 80 buy-ins, I think 100 is even better. Though when I wasn't rolled for bigger games I did take the occasional shot with less than that.

BIGMICKG wrote: »

thx man lol. i prefer non turbos cos the variance is so much lower and its easier to have a much higher av. roi. although i do play alot of turbos cos the non turbos just dont fill fast enough

You can defo have a higher roi per game in a normal speed game, but per hour I think the turbos (as long as they are not super turbos where it becomes a complete lottery) may perhaps be more profitable as you can play a lot more of them, and also the time you wait around for the normal speed games to fill is actually costing you money, if you regard time as money that is.

Also addressing OP 25 games means nothing. You need several hundred games to get any sort of reasonably accurate picture. And several thousand to come really close to your true roi%.

For instance my worst performing alias is -30% rOI after 30 games, but i have another one about 70% after 30 games. Neither of course are in anyway an accurate reflection of what my E(ROI%) should be, just ran sick bad on the first one, while I was a poxy fooker on the 2nd.

eagle eye

BIGMICKG wrote: »

300+ games a week!!!??? wow thats a lot! i assume ur playing fulltime and playing turbos?? how many tables do u play at once?

I played 290 in four days last week, 5 minute blinds. I played between two and eight at a time. I am just trying to find a comfortable amount to play at one time right now.
I have found four at a time, and open another four when the blinds reach 50/100 seemed to be my optimum. I don't think i could play this many on ipoker for two reasons, firstly the traffic is not there to do this for 6 hours a day, and secondly i don't seem to have enough time to act at all tables. This might change with more play.
I also still need to work on improving my game, so any advice on where to go?
Also what sites do you recommend for stt's?

eagle eye

dannydiamond wrote: »

Yes get a good rakeback deal.
i'd reccommend working off at least a 40 buyin BR.
Completely ignore any stats you have for small samples of games.

I agree with you, the small sample means nothing, i just threw it in there to see if anyone else had something similar.
What sites do you find it comfortable to multi-table?
Not asking for the name of an rb company, but what network do you find you get the best rb deal on?

eagle eye

luckylucky wrote: »

Not sure where you saw 15 to 20 buy-ins recommended, you can easily lose this on a bad run in sngs.

A lot depends on your aims. If you don't want to have your bankroll at risk but you are not reliant on your bankroll for income then I would be looking for about the 40 buy-in mark or higher like dannydiamond suggested. If you were a full-time player you need more again. As a full-time player I generally look to have around 80 buy-ins, I think 100 is even better. Though when I wasn't rolled for bigger games I did take the occasional shot with less than that.

You can defo have a higher roi per game in a normal speed game, but per hour I think the turbos (as long as they are not super turbos where it becomes a complete lottery) may perhaps be more profitable as you can play a lot more of them, and also the time you wait around for the normal speed games to fill is actually costing you money, if you regard time as money that is.

I actually don't know where I read about 15 buyins but I definitely got it from a fulltime professional online player. I personally don't agree with it. I suppose if you were playing at high stakes and only playing one at a time it might be fine. But certainly not at grinding levels i.e. up to and including 30 bucks.
I don't want to play anything less that 5min blinds. I find it a lottery as you say if I play anything with a shorter structure.

eagle eye

Just wondering if any of you use pt or the likes for stt's, and are they useful for these games?

RasTa

15 is defo wrong. I normally 8-10 table a couple of times a day and like to play with at least 80 buy-ins for the level. Although in saying that I just play small stakes and turbos. Doing an experiment for 2008.

BIGMICKG

eagle eye wrote: »

I agree with you, the small sample means nothing, i just threw it in there to see if anyone else had something similar.
What sites do you find it comfortable to multi-table?
Not asking for the name of an rb company, but what network do you find you get the best rb deal on?

pokerstars is great for multitabling cos the software is so good and simple. oh and the traffic there is excellent. dont know if ur familiar with stars rakeback system its fpps. not very good when ur starting off but if ur playing seriously ull become platinum star or supernova and then its pretty good

BIGMICKG

You can defo have a higher roi per game in a normal speed game, but per hour I think the turbos (as long as they are not super turbos where it becomes a complete lottery) may perhaps be more profitable as you can play a lot more of them, and also the time you wait around for the normal speed games to fill is actually costing you money, if you regard time as money that is.

Also addressing OP 25 games means nothing. You need several hundred games to get any sort of reasonably accurate picture. And several thousand to come really close to your true roi%.

For instance my worst performing alias is -30% rOI after 30 games, but i have another one about 70% after 30 games. Neither of course are in anyway an accurate reflection of what my E(ROI%) should be, just ran sick bad on the first one, while I was a poxy fooker on the 2nd.[/QUOTE]

had this debate a 1000 times with people and im still pretty sure ur hourly rate would be still slightly better playing nontubos. well especially at the $100+ games for 2 reasons. the turbos at these stakes are mostly full of grinders playing 9+ tables perfectly just living off rakeback. and no matter how good a player u are because off the fast structure in these games its almost impossible to have a long term roi above 5% at 9 seater turbos. quite easy however to have an roi above 10% at non turbos

eagle eye

BIGMICKG wrote: »

pokerstars is great for multitabling cos the software is so good and simple. oh and the traffic there is excellent. dont know if ur familiar with stars rakeback system its fpps. not very good when ur starting off but if ur playing seriously ull become platinum star or supernova and then its pretty good

Thats where I played last week. The traffic is the reason, but no rakeback is a problem at my current level, I need Rb as long as my roi remains between 4% and 14%.

BIGMICKG

eagle eye wrote: »

Just wondering if any of you use pt or the likes for stt's, and are they useful for these games?

never bothered with it for stts dont think its any benefit. altough essential for cash games. theres a few programs for stts : sngwiz and sngshark. never bothered with them either altough a couple of people recommended them to me

BIGMICKG

eagle eye wrote: »

Thats where I played last week. The traffic is the reason, but no rakeback is a problem at my current level, I need Rb as long as my roi remains between 4% and 14%.

but the fpps are as good as rakeback .no?? + if ur playing that number of games at once ull get platinum star in no time

nicnicnic

there used to be a lot of good stuff on variance in the 2+2 faq stt forum

eagle eye

BIGMICKG wrote: »

but the fpps are as good as rakeback .no?? + if ur playing that number of games at once ull get platinum star in no time

Well just started last week and earned 2140 points. Only playing average 11 dollar sng's. Thats between 16 and 6 turbos.
Why would it be so good if i get to platinum star?

BIGMICKG

eagle eye wrote: »

Well just started last week and earned 2140 points. Only playing average 11 dollar sng's. Thats between 16 and 6 turbos.
Why would it be so good if i get to platinum star?

because at the moment ur just getting ur base fpps. if ur platinum star u get 150% bonus on all fpps earned. ie for every 1000 fpps u earn ull get another 1500 on top

eagle eye

BIGMICKG wrote: »

because at the moment ur just getting ur base fpps. if ur platinum star u get 150% bonus on all fpps earned. ie for every 1000 fpps u earn ull get another 1500 on top

No monetarily speaking what use are they?

BIGMICKG

eagle eye wrote: »

No monetarily speaking what use are they?

u can get loads of cool stuff for them. have a look in the fpp store. u can cash them in also. u cant get $1500 cash for 100,000 fpps

luckylucky

eagle eye wrote: »

I actually don't know where I read about 15 buyins but I definitely got it from a fulltime professional online player. I personally don't agree with it. I suppose if you were playing at high stakes and only playing one at a time it might be fine. But certainly not at grinding levels i.e. up to and including 30 bucks.
I don't want to play anything less that 5min blinds. I find it a lottery as you say if I play anything with a shorter structure.

I am a full-time professional online player and from time to time play sngs. A full timer is the last person in the world who should be playing with just 15 buy-ins, especially at the higher stakes where the compettion is tougher and ROI% even for the best players can never be as high as it would for small stakes. Also it shoudln't make a significant difference whether you single table or multi-table! On an aside I would question the strength of a full-time player if he just singled tabled though!

Are you sure you didn't read 15 buy-ins in relation to cash games? this is still low but at very small stakes it's not crazy low.

Btw I'm not saying it's wrong to play with 15 buy-ins, I'm just saying your bankroll is in peril if you do, on the other hand you could spin it up. So as long as the individual realises the risk v reward factor.

eagle eye

luckylucky wrote: »

I am a full-time professional online player and from time to time play sngs. A full timer is the last person in the world who should be playing with just 15 buy-ins, especially at the higher stakes where the compettion is tougher and ROI% even for the best players can never be as high as it would for small stakes. Also it shoudln't make a significant difference whether you single table or multi-table! On an aside I would question the strength of a full-time player if he just singled tabled though!

Are you sure you didn't read 15 buy-ins in relation to cash games? this is still low but at very small stakes it's not crazy low.

Btw I'm not saying it's wrong to play with 15 buy-ins, I'm just saying your bankroll is in peril if you do, on the other hand you could spin it up. So as long as the individual realises the risk v reward factor.

I fully agree with you that its too low, I was just explaining where I got it, still cannot remember who, but it was from some online site, not 2+2 or here, but somewhere like that.

BIGMICKG

luckylucky wrote: »

I am a full-time professional online player and from time to time play sngs. A full timer is the last person in the world who should be playing with just 15 buy-ins, especially at the higher stakes where the compettion is tougher and ROI% even for the best players can never be as high as it would for small stakes. Also it shoudln't make a significant difference whether you single table or multi-table! On an aside I would question the strength of a full-time player if he just singled tabled though!

Are you sure you didn't read 15 buy-ins in relation to cash games? this is still low but at very small stakes it's not crazy low.

Btw I'm not saying it's wrong to play with 15 buy-ins, I'm just saying your bankroll is in peril if you do, on the other hand you could spin it up. So as long as the individual realises the risk v reward factor.

it is wrong to play with 15 buyins.
15 buyins is ludacris!! especially at turbos i regually lose 10+ sngs in a row. whoever mentioned 15 buyins to u is bull****ting

nicnicnic

I always maintained 80/100 minimum I really don't think most players have any Idea how well/badly you can run in stts. I've had a 1000 game batch with 33% roi and 1000 with 1%

Grafter

15 buyins is from http://www.pocketfives.com/5C57520F-8A89-43F3-97E6-54D240CB3E59.aspx but the devil is in the detail.

prendy

OP sorry to crash your thread but am i stupid playing Party for low stakes STT's..
is the rake too high or is it the same everywhere? i dont play much...maybe 20-30 games a week.

Iago

nicnicnic wrote: »

I always maintained 80/100 minimum I really don't think most players have any Idea how well/badly you can run in stts. I've had a 1000 game batch with 33% roi and 1000 with 1%

This is not meant as a bad beat post, but just to emphasise what others have said above, last night I had a couple of hours to spare so I played some SNGs. Over the course of 25 $33 6 pacs I lost around $300 (10 buyins) thanks to hands such as below

SnG 1 : All in preflop AA vs KK
SnG 2: All in on a flop of As 3d 4d with Ad Jd against 5d 6d and 4s 4c
SnG 3: All in preflop with JJ v's AQ
SnG 4: All in preflop with KK v's AQ
SnG 5: All in on a flop of Ts Qs 5h with TT v's As Ks
SnG 6: All in preflop with AK v's A4
SnG 7: All in preflop with QQ v's AA

and so on and so forth. It's infinitely possible to lose 10-15 buyins in a very short period of time, and I always look to have around 50 buyins for any level I play at.

RasTa

Aye I've lost about 15 since yesterday. Can't win a flip or AJ v A6. QQ v A7 etc etc. If I loose 30 i'll drop down.

Mont

Does anyone else find dropping down in levels causes you to lose concentration - I just cant concentrate playing $5 or $10 games after playing $50, $30 ones - I seem to lose my $ faster as I just dont care about the stakes plus some of the play can be questionable to say the least.
I normally just play one table at a time - preferably HU Cash - as its normally pretty frantic so thats enough for me atm - Just wondering when multi-tabling STT's (say 6-8 tables) what sort of range of hands would you recommend to play? - I presume TAG has to be the optimum or is it?

tipp86

I have no problem multi tabling stts its when i get heads up i find it difficult to concentrate any advise? What is a good realistic roi to aim for?Im currently running at 36% but over a small sample

RasTa

What's the sampe size? Here is my results so far for this years experiment but they are big time misleading in terms of roi as I took down one of those 10/180's and I play 6.50/45's. But I am hoping to keep it at 20% until I get to 1,000 and then I shall probably kill myself.

murph01

Maybe a stupid question,but what exactly does roi stand for
thanx

newbie2

murph01 wrote: »

Maybe a stupid question,but what exactly does roi stand for
thanx

Return On Investment

google is your friend....

Chucky the tree

RasTa wrote: »

I play 6.50/45's.

Any idea what a decent ROI on these would be? I have just started playing the micro 45 man turbos.

RasTa

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Any idea what a decent ROI on these would be? I have just started playing the micro 45 man turbos.

30%+ I suppose is decent.

eagle eye

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Any idea what a decent ROI on these would be? I have just started playing the micro 45 man turbos.

Most people reckon 9%+ over a long period is excellent.

luckylucky

eagle eye wrote: »

Most people reckon 9%+ over a long period is excellent.

At higher stakes it is. At lower stakes you're in profit so that's always good , but it wouldn't be excellent, merely good.

BIGMICKG wrote: »

it is wrong to play with 15 buyins.
15 buyins is ludacris!! especially at turbos i regually lose 10+ sngs in a row. whoever mentioned 15 buyins to u is bull****ting

In the context of bankroll management it is totally ludicrous I agree. However context is all important! Not everyone's aim is to protect their bankroll, that is they are not in the same boat as you and I are.

If someone puts in $165 say on to a site, i.e. enough for 15 $10(plus $1 fee), as long as they don't mind losing this. i.e. they have a decent job and losing $165 is not a big deal etc etc. then there isn't anything wrong with them taking a shot at $10 sngs. In other words bankroll management is not really a factor at all.

On the other hand take a serious winning part time player who has built up a roll of say $8k playing $100 sngs and they don't have big savings to fall back on. It would be ludicrous for him/her to take a shot at $500 sngs as they now have a decent bankroll to protect and they have only 15 buy-ins. And like you say this can easily be lost by even the best players on one of the many bad runs you inevitably get in sngs.

tipp86

RasTa wrote: »

What's the sampe size? Here is my results so far for this years experiment but they are big time misleading in terms of roi as I took down one of those 10/180's and I play 6.50/45's. But I am hoping to keep it at 20% until I get to 1,000 and then I shall probably kill myself.

Its around 100 so a rather small sample i was just wondering from a point of view what i should hope for

RasTa

A min of 1,000 and then you can reassess if you have the will to live.