Why is it not illegal to mismanage a Web site?

AlanF

Over a period of about 4 months I catalogued over 800 Irish Web sites that were allowing the posting of links to everything from Viagra to Paedophilia.

Is it just me or is this wrong?

Maybe I am wrong and it is okay in today's society to set up a Web site that allows people to post whatever they want and not be responsible for the content, no matter what this content is.

A Quote from the ISPAI:

"However, these cases constitute only anecdotal evidence of what you appear to have proven through systematic survey; that is, a considerable proportion of individuals, companies and institutions are amazingly lax in protecting their Internet security and monitoring their websites."

However nothing has being done in relation to the issue I raised back in May of 2007, and today the situation is getting worse.

Should the Owners of Websites/Domains be held accountable for not making sure that content not connected to the theme of the Web site is removed?

Tom Young

AlanF,

The situation is somewhat interesting. The ISPAI are correct in respect of the statement/quote they have issued.

I work in the Internet industry and can vouch for the fact that your searches may be merely temporary links or posts on unprotected parts of peoples hosting or website arrangements.

Can you outline how you are searching?

The ISPAI and Hotline literally check every report and are thorough. Text as you mention above is not in fact content but merely wording which is migrated or re-linked from place to place.

Criminal acts require intention or recklessness generally, in most instances the later might be in place but the real criminal is the person hosting, posting and moving the data around the place.

There are a number of statutory protections in place.

Tom

AlanF

Tom,

Thank you for your reply.

I myself work in the IT Industry, and have being utilising the Internet since 1992.

I am also aware that what I have mentioned are simply links to content which is held on another website, however it is not just words/links that are posted but also inline images, some of which are very explicit and are easily found on multiple Irish websites either intentionally or by mistake .

You say that the person who is responsible may be the person hosting, posting the links, etc. But if you find these links on a Site that are over a year old and continue to attract new additions, surely this is a case of neglect by the website owner?

Does the Website owner not have a responsibility to insure that their website is fit-for-purpose?

I have found Websites (Domain’s) that are owned by a Government Body that has millions of links to prescription drugs, pornography, etc. I have also found Irish businesses, Senators, Third Level Institutions, as well as personal websites with similar content. These are not isolated incidents and have being going on undetected for a number of years.

I have mentioned earlier that I have catalogued over 800 websites. These websites are Domain’s and do not incorporate Social Networking Providers which would bring the total to well over 1,000 when sub-domains are included. I must also point out that some well respected Internet Industry names are also included in this list.

I have also brought the issue directly to some of the website owners who to-date have not done anything to rectify it however some who were contacted have removed either some or all of the content, so they are clearly aware that their website is being used to advertise content which could be illegal but still allow it to continue. Are they not responsible?

How I have found the content is not the issue here, but I initially stumbled across a website that had a Guestbook with in excess of 28,000 entries, when I took a closer look I found that most of this content 99% was SPAM, then using this SPAM I extracted some “Key Words” and now can use Google to find any amount of this inappropriate content on hundreds of Irish websites.

If someone whom I do not know asked me to store a box in my home do you think I would be obliged to do so without knowing its contents, otherwise I would be legally responsible the box’s content were I to agree to store it.

So what is the difference with websites?, if as a website owner/webmaster you allow unmonitored posting then should you as the owner/webmaster not be held responsible? Especially when the content in question has being available for months and in some cases years.

I have used the Hotline to report such content, yet nothing has happened, and this is after 6 months, in fact the situation has worsened.

As a Parent I am concerned, but as an IT Professional of over 20 years I am appalled at the way technology is being used by some people who clearly have little knowledge in the use of that technology and their blasé use of it.

Tom Young

AlanF wrote: »

Tom,

Thank you for your reply.

I myself work in the IT Industry, and have being utilising the Internet since 1992.

So its safe to say your a competent user then I'd imagine. I've worked on peered networks in the EU and US and currently sit on the IETF working groups for certain global Internet standards.

AlanF wrote: »

I am also aware that what I have mentioned are simply links to content which is held on another website, however it is not just words/links that are posted but also inline images, some of which are very explicit and are easily found on multiple Irish websites either intentionally or by mistake.

Indeed, links which are easily removed and replaced, see DTI work on this and the problems they faced here:

http://www.dti.gov.uk/consultations/page13985.html

http://www.out-law.com/page-7670

AlanF wrote: »

You say that the person who is responsible may be the person hosting, posting the links, etc. But if you find these links on a Site that are over a year old and continue to attract new additions, surely this is a case of neglect by the website owner?

Actually not unless they are made aware or are aware, otherwise they are not liable at all. Mere neglect.

AlanF wrote: »

Does the Website owner not have a responsibility to insure that their website is fit-for-purpose?

Not at present they don't, in-fact in some jurisdictions Fit-for-purpose might make most of us shudder.

AlanF wrote: »

I have found Websites (Domain’s) that are owned by a Government Body that has millions of links to prescription drugs, pornography, etc. I have also found Irish businesses, Senators, Third Level Institutions, as well as personal websites with similar content. These are not isolated incidents and have being going on undetected for a number of years.

So you admit that these are undetected. Have you notified the owners? This is merely a screnario where they have left their hosting space or site unsecured (or indeed a server) or they've been hacked.

AlanF wrote: »

I have mentioned earlier that I have catalogued over 800 websites. These websites are Domain’s and do not incorporate Social Networking Providers which would bring the total to well over 1,000 when sub-domains are included. I must also point out that some well respected Internet Industry names are also included in this list.

800 is quite a lot and I can imagine it has been very time consuming. Again I reiterate that unless they are or, are made aware of the content its totally irrelevant. Text headers and hyperlinks cannot be deemed content in the context of pornography, images etc. They are merely tags and reachthroughs which can move/migrate.

AlanF wrote: »

I have also brought the issue directly to some of the website owners who to-date have not done anything to rectify it however some who were contacted have removed either some or all of the content, so they are clearly aware that their website is being used to advertise content which could be illegal but still allow it to continue. Are they not responsible?

Technically as the owners yes. They have some responsibility, unless that can't find the content or the content is moving, which can happen.

AlanF wrote: »

How I have found the content is not the issue here, but I initially stumbled across a website that had a Guestbook with in excess of 28,000 entries, when I took a closer look I found that most of this content 99% was SPAM, then using this SPAM I extracted some “Key Words” and now can use Google to find any amount of this inappropriate content on hundreds of Irish websites.

The question is though, is it *actually* inappropriate content or merely tags and wording? Site owners have been know to hypermark sites so they get caught be Google and the likes in greater seaches. I am not sure your searching is as clinical as the mechanisms used by law enforcement or indeed the ISPAI and INHOPE organisations (who actually find real content).

AlanF wrote: »

If someone whom I do not know asked me to store a box in my home do you think I would be obliged to do so without knowing its contents, otherwise I would be legally responsible the box’s content were I to agree to store it.

That is a matter really which boils down to negligence and liability. Do you ever leave your windows open?

AlanF wrote: »

So what is the difference with websites?, if as a website owner/webmaster you allow unmonitored posting then should you as the owner/webmaster not be held responsible? Especially when the content in question has being available for months and in some cases years.

There is a myriad of answers to this question. The Internet is nascent and global thus making jurisdication and control a challenge. In theory and practice many matters are actionable online, but others are just impossible to track, trace and prosecute.

AlanF wrote: »

I have used the Hotline to report such content, yet nothing has happened, and this is after 6 months, in fact the situation has worsened.

Have you not heard back from them at all? I bet (based on your search mechanism) that they found little or no real Content, but merely hyperlinks, words and tags, which does not create liability.

AlanF wrote: »

As a Parent I am concerned, but as an IT Professional of over 20 years I am appalled at the way technology is being used by some people who clearly have little knowledge in the use of that technology and their blasé use of it.

There are a lot of bad drivers on the roads also. Sorry to use this analogy but I am sure you'll see my point.

It's almost impossible to police.

AlanF

Very well articulated, and some very convincing arguments put forward to justify the lack of responsibility afforded by some website owners.

However I fail to see your point regarding bad drivers on the roads as there are laws governing driving and anyone found to be breaking these laws will be prosecuted, whereas with the issue I have outlined Irish Law is unable to come to grips with the fact that prescription drugs and extreme pornography are being made available to anyone who has access to the Internet via unregulated sources from websites that are being grossly mismanaged.

Also thank you for pointing out that the basic research I did on my personal time is not up to Law Enforcement Standards, this is probably due to the fact that I do not have the available resources nor the budget that the Law Enforcement Bodies would have.

I will not go into my credentials in detail as I do not feel the need to do so. I in mentioning my experience was just outlining that I had experience in the Internet area mentioning this was to set the context, not to boast about it.

So what in essence you are saying is that if anyone wants to set up a website and allow people to post any content they wish as long as that content is not physically hosted on owners website then the site owner can not be held legally responsible for any of the content including content that may be illegal in Ireland by just saying “well I didn’t know it was there”, or “Ooh, are there dirty pictures on my website?”, or “Ooh I am sorry that your son died from an overdose of drugs he found via my website”.

From what you have put in your reply it follows on that if I were to publish my list of 800+ Irish owned websites with screenshots of the type of content (strategically blurred of course due to the extreme nature of some of the images as well as its possible illegality) I and most people with a bit of social conscience, which I am sure you are one, would find objectionable, I could not be held responsible for nor would I face any criminal charges under Irish Law if I hosted the content on a Third Party file upload Server, and just linked into them from my website?