Access to information...

Ronan H

Hi... I couldnt get into the legal forum so this was the next best place that I could think of...

My boss is being bullied quite badly at work by a number of colleagues. It appears that they are colluding in an attempt to have her fired / blacken her name / whatever. Someone in the IT department has warned her (very much on the quiet) that there are Emails on the company server going to and fro between these people which very blatantly prove that they are colluding to cause trouble for her.

Could anyone tell me if she has a right to have a copy of the Emails seeing as they are about her and what way she could go about doing this? She will be making a representation to senior management about the bullying and I would imagine that the Emails would be a very important aspect of her "case" as such.

Thanks in advance.

Head

Eoin

Unless you've been banned, you may just have tried to get into the wrong legal forum - try here, or the Work & Jobs forum.

dudara

Moved to Work & Jobs

dudara

Ronan H

Thanks for the relocation. I couldnt get in to Legal because it was asking for a password...

Head

kaiser sauze

Head wrote: »

Hi... I couldnt get into the legal forum so this was the next best place that I could think of...

My boss is being bullied quite badly at work by a number of colleagues. It appears that they are colluding in an attempt to have her fired / blacken her name / whatever. Someone in the IT department has warned her (very much on the quiet) that there are Emails on the company server going to and fro between these people which very blatantly prove that they are colluding to cause trouble for her.

Could anyone tell me if she has a right to have a copy of the Emails seeing as they are about her and what way she could go about doing this? She will be making a representation to senior management about the bullying and I would imagine that the Emails would be a very important aspect of her "case" as such.

Thanks in advance.

Head

She has no option apart from going through the company's own disciplinary procedure; they should have contingency's written into everyone's contract for this. You say that she is a 'boss', it might give her the authority to access these emails.

It is better than going through the direct legal route, and a lot less public and messy.

Kimbot

Thread carefully mate.

The IT person could get in trouble for snooping in other peoples emails. Personnel can take care of this matter but you will need solid proof.

Ronan H

jonny24ie wrote: »

Thread carefully mate.

The IT person could get in trouble for snooping in other peoples emails. Personnel can take care of this matter but you will need solid proof.

Therein lies the problem. I believe the Emails would be proof enough, however it seems that there is no way to access them without getting the IT person in trouble... Double edged sword...

Head

Eoin

A professional company should make everyone sign an internet and email usage policy, which gives the company the right to monitor e-mails. That said, I wouldn't be too impressed if I was told my emails were being looked at because of rumours that I was sending emails about someone else.

kaiser sauze

eoin_s wrote: »

A professional company should make everyone sign an internet and email usage policy, which gives the company the right to monitor e-mails. That said, I wouldn't be too impressed if I was told my emails were being looked at because of rumours that I was sending emails about someone else.

It is always a catch-22, there is no proof until they are looked at, or the employee consents to having their mail perused.

Situations like this are always going to be started by a rumour and there are rarely any easy ways of sorting it out.

Someone is always going to object.

Supercell

People bitch about their boss to other coworkers all the time but that doesnt necessarily mean they are colluding to rise up against her. This is very thin ice she is treading imho.

I agree with the others, she should discuss her grievances with HR and let them do the appropriate investigations. I really don't think she should mention emails at all - she could land the IT guys in a lot of trouble for disclosing that information to her.

She could of course say she suspects that they are colluding behind her back and let HR take it from there though.

Eoin

kaiser sauze wrote: »

It is always a catch-22, there is no proof until they are looked at, or the employee consents to having their mail perused.

Situations like this are always going to be started by a rumour and there are rarely any easy ways of sorting it out.

Someone is always going to object.

Unless someone who has received a copy of the email complains, then I don't think it's acceptable to read the emails. While it's a business tool provided by the company, there is still an expectation of privacy.

Incidentally, there is a trust placed in those who maintain the email systems, and the person in IT who passed on that info acted very irresponsibly to pass that info on - and that's before the initial act of reading the emails. Unless it coincided with some check for very innappropriate use of email, then it was out of order. I wouldn't consider dismissal too harsh a punishment for that.

biko

Ask the IT worker to approach one of his/her bosses with the info? Depending on position IT staff can read anyones mails.

Alternatively get "some misplaced / found in a waste basket" printouts of the alleged mails and approach a senior boss. If indeed the mails show that they are clearly bullying her they might get fired/quit.

I worked for a company where one boss kept personal notes of his staff on file, drinking habits, work morals etc. He was fired when this came to light. He actually mailed it by mistake to his staff :rolleyes:

Eoin

biko wrote: »

Ask the IT worker to approach one of his/her bosses with the info? Depending on position IT staff can read anyones mails.

Yes, but they shouldn't be doing so, unless they have very good reason to - and from what I can tell, emails of this nature wouldn't be anywhere near a good enough excuse.

10-10-20

Without bringing the IT guy into this, during her representation to senior management she should request that they follow up on her complaint by checking the interactions on the e-mail accounts of the involved parties.
As mentioned above, most companies have a data policy which allows for this.

Eoin

10-10-20 wrote: »

Without bringing the IT guy into this, during her representation to senior management she should request that they follow up on her complaint by checking the interactions on the e-mail accounts of the involved parties.
As mentioned above, most companies have a data policy which allows for this.

Yes, but having your email looked at because there are some rumours floating around?

kaiser sauze

eoin_s wrote: »

Yes, but having your email looked at because there are some rumours floating around?

In this case, they seem to be more than just rumours.

10-10-20

eoin_s wrote: »

Yes, but having your email looked at because there are some rumours floating around?

Nobody has to mention rumors. I expect the OP will present evidence of collusion, and this would be sufficient to request that the method of communication between the parties be looked at.

Eoin

10-10-20 wrote: »

Nobody has to mention rumors. I expect the OP will present evidence of collusion, and this would be sufficient to request that the method of communication between the parties be looked at.

If there is any other evidence. All I can make out so far is someone has heard that people are bitching about a boss at work by email.

Ronan H

Thanks for all the replies. Just to clarify a few things, there is no rumour in effect here. My boss IS being bullied by colleagues. Its not people on her staff team and its not people who work "under" her as such. So in effect, nobody is - bitching about their boss - as has been suggested. It is a bigger situation that is happening in much bigger ways that just via peoples Email accounts, thats only part of it and since it would go a long way to prove what is going on thats why I made the thread.

I was trying to find out what her rights were in respect of the Emails. I am sure she will be taking the normal disciplinary route to deal with whats going on. Someone has suggested that she request to have the communications between the people looked into, which appears to be the best answer to the question. I just wanted to make sure that the Emails werent ignored as they are very important.

Thanks for all the suggestions and discourse so far. Much appreciated.

Head

homeOwner

Head wrote: »

My boss is being bullied quite badly at work by a number of colleagues. It appears that they are colluding in an attempt to have her fired / blacken her name / whatever. Someone in the IT department has warned her (very much on the quiet) that there are Emails on the company server going to and fro between these people which very blatantly prove that they are colluding to cause trouble for her.

Do these people work for her or are they her peers?

I think she should just leave it alone for the moment. Going to HR will only put on the owness on her to proove these rumours and could work against her. As it stands the only person who has proof is the IT person who shouldnt be disclosing the content to her.

If she does her job well and maintains a professional manner there is little other people can do to "have her fired/ blacken her name". Of course now that she knows who these people are she can watch her back and make sure she is on top of things to give them no excuse to find something to use against her.

Ronan H

homeOwner wrote: »

Do these people work for her or are they her peers?

I think she should just leave it alone for the moment. Going to HR will only put on the owness on her to proove these rumours and could work against her. As it stands the only person who has proof is the IT person who shouldnt be disclosing the content to her.

If she does her job well and maintains a professional manner there is little other people can do to "have her fired/ blacken her name". Of course now that she knows who these people are she can watch her back and make sure she is on top of things to give them no excuse to find something to use against her.

Two of the other people are similar level managers but due to the nature of the company there are shared interests and involvement on an ongoing basis, others are more senior management.

Leaving it alone is not an option, she has been on stress leave a couple of times as a result and it is at the stage now where she feels she may leave the company, it has got to that level. In the years I have worked with her she has always done her work to an impeccable level with absolute professionalism. I understand what you say about just continuing to work in that manner and having nothing to worry about as a result, and that is fine if others around you are acting in a similar manner, however in this instance there seems to be alternative agendas for some people.

I dont really want to go into it much more, I really was only looking for information regarding the Emails. There is a lot more going on that would help make it clearer here but I cant go into them as it wouldnt be fair or appropriate...

Thank to all for their input.

Head

kaiser sauze

eoin_s wrote: »

Unless someone who has received a copy of the email complains, then I don't think it's acceptable to read the emails. While it's a business tool provided by the company, there is still an expectation of privacy.

Incidentally, there is a trust placed in those who maintain the email systems, and the person in IT who passed on that info acted very irresponsibly to pass that info on - and that's before the initial act of reading the emails. Unless it coincided with some check for very innappropriate use of email, then it was out of order. I wouldn't consider dismissal too harsh a punishment for that.

eoin_s wrote: »

Yes, but they shouldn't be doing so, unless they have very good reason to - and from what I can tell, emails of this nature wouldn't be anywhere near a good enough excuse.

eoin_s wrote: »

Yes, but having your email looked at because there are some rumours floating around?

eoin_s wrote: »

If there is any other evidence. All I can make out so far is someone has heard that people are bitching about a boss at work by email.

Your replies make no sense to me whatsoever.

The only situation where I could agree with you is if these people are using private, Gmail for example, accounts. Since this is fairly clearly not the case here, as there has been mentions of "IT", your logic is flawed. Even if they were free, the company has every right to question why these people were frittering away company time and resources on personal matters.

If, and I'm assuming here, the mails are bouncing around company servers and are company email, eg. karen@toymanufacturer.com to other Toy Manufacturer email accounts, then the company has every right to look at these mails. They are not "Karen's" property, nor any of the other senders/recipients. They are paid for, provided by and owned by, "Toy Manufacturer". As such, the ultimate responsibility for the content of mail bearing that domain is with "Toy Manufacturer". They are also legally responsible for all the content of all of the mail with that domain.

Seriously, get off the great white horse.

Eoin

kaiser sauze wrote: »

Your replies make no sense to me whatsoever.

The only situation where I could agree with you is if these people are using private, Gmail for example, accounts. Since this is fairly clearly not the case here, as there has been mentions of "IT", your logic is flawed. Even if they were free, the company has every right to question why these people were frittering away company time and resources on personal matters.

If, and I'm assuming here, the mails are bouncing around company servers and are company email, eg. karen@toymanufacturer.com to other Toy Manufacturer email accounts, then the company has every right to look at these mails. They are not "Karen's" property, nor any of the other senders/recipients. They are paid for, provided by and owned by, "Toy Manufacturer". As such, the ultimate responsibility for the content of mail bearing that domain is with "Toy Manufacturer". They are also legally responsible for all the content of all of the mail with that domain.

This all boils down to the internet and email usage policy in the office. Emails can't be monitored covertly (with certain exceptions that don't cover this case). There is a right to privacy - maybe not to the same degree as there is with snail mail, but it's still there.

It isn't up to IT to decide how much time is frittered away. I think that IT support have a tendency to overestimate their role in defining what's acceptable usage. I've worked in several areas of IT support, and been guilty myself in the past.

The OP can't give too much more info away, but from what I can tell, it looks like someone in IT with access to emails has abused their position by reading them.

kaiser sauze wrote: »

Seriously, get off the great white horse.

That's quite unnecessary.

kaiser sauze

eoin_s wrote: »

This all boils down to the internet and email usage policy in the office. Emails can't be monitored covertly (with certain exceptions that don't cover this case). There is a right to privacy - maybe not to the same degree as there is with snail mail, but it's still there.

It isn't up to IT to decide how much time is frittered away. I think that IT support have a tendency to overestimate their role in defining what's acceptable usage. I've worked in several areas of IT support, and been guilty myself in the past.

The OP can't give too much more info away, but from what I can tell, it looks like someone in IT with access to emails has abused their position by reading them.



That's quite unnecessary.

Nope, it boils down to ownership, and those people don't own those emails, even though they wrote them.

The privacy issue only arises where the employees have signed a contract. If they have signed no contract then there is no implicit right to privacy for company email.

I never said that it was up to IT to judge the time wasted, that is up to company management, naturally.

Eoin

kaiser sauze wrote: »

Nope, it boils down to ownership, and those people don't own those emails, even though they wrote them.

The privacy issue only arises where the employees have signed a contract. If they have signed no contract then there is no implicit right to privacy for company email.

I never said that it was up to IT to judge the time wasted, that is up to company management, naturally.

It isn't as simple as that - there is a right to privacy, which has to be taken into account by the company. It's up there somewhere on www.citizensinformation.ie site somewhere.

kaiser sauze

You mean this: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/employment/employment-rights-and-conditions/monitoring-and-surveillance-at-work/surveillance_of_electronic_communications_in_the_workplace/?searchterm=privacy%20at%20work

I quote:

While employees in Ireland have a legitimate expectation of privacy in the workplace, this right must be balanced with the rights and interests of the employer. (In particular, the employer's right to run their business efficiently and above all, to protect themselves from any liability or harm an employee's actions may create.) While a monitoring policy may be considered convenient to service the employer's interests, it must be clear that the employer's interest cannot justify an intrusion on an employee's privacy.

Ronan H

eoin_s wrote: »

The OP can't give too much more info away, but from what I can tell, it looks like someone in IT with access to emails has abused their position by reading them.

Someone in the IT department has read the Emails. I suppose the issue here is whether they did so illegally or not, and it appears that there is not black and white answer to that. I guess it depends on the individual situation, policy etc... Ill suggest she contact Citizens Information and the Data Protection people in case they can offer any advice.

And lads, dont be fighting .

Head