Using 'the clock': pros/cons?

El Stuntman

I don't play in many tournies larger than say a 200 buy-in and it would be fairly unusual to hear 'clock' called in these smaller donkaments. In fact I'd say I could count on the fingers of one hand the amount of times I've heard it in the couple of years I've been playing these games.
(I've called it once myself and felt dirty afterwards :rolleyes:)

In the GJP 500 game at the w/e, it was a different story - it must have been called at least 6/7 times on the final table.

The hand that sticks in my mind was this:

we are 8-handed and on the pay bubble.

battle of the blinds; the two protagonists are Keith (dunno his 2nd name) on maybe 80k and some French dude, 30k or so.
Blinds are 1200/2400 with a 300 ante

French dude is steaming somewhat having had his raises snapped off a few times recently. He is second shortest stack on the table. There is some banter when it's folded around to the SB and Keith eventually completes and French guy spoofs on some more before declaring no raise.

Flop is AhKh and a black six

SB checks. French guy moves all-in. Keith goes into the tank and French guy calls clock very quickly (within a minute)

Keith allows clock to run down and calls with King-rag. It's good against a raggy flush draw (Th 2h)

Consensus was that the call would not have been made without the 'clock' move.

Would be interested to hear more experienced tournie players thoughts on using the clock and how you can best use it to your advantage??

5starpool

Personally I think talk of using the clock to your advantage is within the dirty realms of angle shooting one way or another. Unless an unreasonable length of time has passed, or unless someone has been constantly slow, I would never consider calling the clock, and even then I have never seriously called clock on someone (messing a couple of times, but never in a proper situation).

On the other hand I have only had it called on me once, and it was after a short period of time thinking by someone who had never played with me before in a 1k event, and I certainly didn't like it being called on me since I had a real decision to make for my stack.

smurph

El Stuntman wrote: »

I don't play in many tournies larger than say a 200 buy-in and it would be fairly unusual to hear 'clock' called in these smaller donkaments. In fact I'd say I could count on the fingers of one hand the amount of times I've heard it in the couple of years I've been playing these games.
(I've called it once myself and felt dirty afterwards :rolleyes:)

In the GJP 500 game at the w/e, it was a different story - it must have been called at least 6/7 times on the final table.

The hand that sticks in my mind was this:

we are 8-handed and on the pay bubble.

battle of the blinds; the two protagonists are Keith (dunno his 2nd name) on maybe 80k and some French dude, 30k or so.
Blinds are 1200/2400 with a 300 ante

French dude is steaming somewhat having had his raises snapped off a few times recently. He is second shortest stack on the table. There is some banter when it's folded around to the SB and Keith eventually completes and French guy spoofs on some more before declaring no raise.

Flop is AhKh and a black six

SB checks. French guy moves all-in. Keith goes into the tank and French guy calls clock very quickly (within a minute)

Keith allows clock to run down and calls with King-rag. It's good against a raggy flush draw (Th 2h)

Consensus was that the call would not have been made without the 'clock' move.

Would be interested to hear more experienced tournie players thoughts on using the clock and how you can best use it to your advantage??

It must be a french thing, or perhaps it was the same French guy. A french guy called clock at our table and was not even involved in the hand. Joe beevers raised and Dave Colclough re-raised all in. While joe was going into the tank deciding the French guy calls clock. The dealer (fair play to him) announces that he is not calling clock as in his opinion Not enough time has passed.

What was even more annoying is that there was 1minute 30 seconds until a break... I mean WTF... It was a decision for Dave Colcloughs tournament and It would have crippled Joe.

Eventually Joe folds, and the french bloke says "I didn't mean to be rude but it should have been an automatic call".

Joe beevers was fuming with him. Bad form in my opinion.

BigCityBanker

I dont like having it called on me. And Ive called it in the past but only in extreme circumstances where I feel a very long time has been given to the player in question.

Also I feel its relative, I think the last time I called clock was on the FT of a Jackpot donkament where the player had 6 minutes to make a decision before I called clock. I followed his progress on the clock so its not a case of 'it was only 2 mins', it was deffo 6 mins and in the case of a 50e buyin tourney where 8 players remained on an average stack of maybe 15bb's i dint feel it unreasonable.

I had it called on me it the Drog cash games, in a hand where i eventually called with KJ on a AJX board. I had it called on me in the SE 1000 game after a short period of time and folded KK on a Q high flop as a result.

In the 500 game at the weekend a player not involved in the hand called clock on Hee Haws Cantona when we were in a hand and he was facing a turn push from me. The player who called clock was French.

El Stuntman

so the moral of the story is that not only are the French cheese-eating surrender monkeys, they're also a bunch of angle-shoting gimps?

mdwexford

The dealer shouldnt have allowed a clock to be called in El Stuntman's example if less than a minute had passed.

Personally i wouldnt call a clock on anyone anymore unless they were taking an age over every single decision or if they had done something to get under my skin i might call it either. Usually when i see someone call a clock i just think what a tosser, especially if its for someones tourney life or at a crucial stage etc

Russh

I've noticed this creeping in now more and more....Between the short handed game and the main event game in Drogheda I've seen it called about 6 times....

And then to my amazement in the cash game the same guy call's a clock on three different opponents and even started on about him being raked while players are thinking about a hand....tosser....

The dealers should be the ultimate decision makers on whether or not sufficent time has been allowed to call a clock...It takes away that element of angle shooting (which it is definately used for)....It's a sick play imo....and should'nt be used to one's advantage....

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

ditpoker

smurph wrote: »

It must be a french thing, or perhaps it was the same French guy. A french guy called clock at our table and was not even involved in the hand. Joe beevers raised and Dave Colclough re-raised all in. While joe was going into the tank deciding the French guy calls clock. The dealer (fair play to him) announces that he is not calling clock as in his opinion Not enough time has passed.
What was even more annoying is that there was 1minute 30 seconds until a break... I mean WTF... It was a decision for Dave Colcloughs tournament and It would have crippled Joe.

Eventually Joe folds, and the french bloke says "I didn't mean to be rude but it should have been an automatic call".

Joe beevers was fuming with him. Bad form in my opinion.

fair play to the dealer... a boardsie?!?!

Goodluck2me

I think that 2 mins is ample time to make a decision, 3 mins max.
people take too much time too often on the most basic of decisions.how do you think people manage online?

Goodluck2me

ditpoker wrote: »

fair play to the dealer... a boardsie?!?!

pretty sure it wasnt me, although ive done it before i cant recall doing it over the week tbh.

Carl, sam and Killian to name a few would certainly enforce it too.

phantom_lord

El Stuntman wrote: »

so the moral of the story is that not only are the French cheese-eating surrender monkeys, they're also a bunch of angle-shoting gimps?

the guy who called the clock on conor doyle on my table when he was faced with a really tough decision was french too. *shakes fist*

Lazare

cooker3

ditpoker wrote: »

fair play to the dealer... a boardsie?!?!

It was me.

Shortstack

It is a different culture thing. In France it is very common to call the clock on people to speed up the game. All the French over here were very surprised about the length of time taken over hands, mostly comments like "Is this being filmed?". They simply don't see the need for long dwells. It was at least two different players in the examples posted above.

The French guys who came over for the festival really changed my perception of the French in general (which was based upon the ridicously rude and arrogant people in the service industry in Paris I encountered). Whilst their table etiquette is different from what we know here, they were all great people away from the table. They were all very complimentary about the Irish players in general. At least one of them will be back for JP's Irish Masters game most likely more.

They all loved the festival and reckon we will be invaded by their countryfolk for the next one.

dannydiamond

Having the clock called on you in one isolated hand is bad form unless someone has already taken a couple of minutes,and this is up to the dealer to see reason either way.
Players taking to much time persistently is angle shooting in itself,and if sufficient time has passed I see nothing wrong in calling the clock on someone,we all know them a***holes who take 2 minutes to fold every hand preflop,I say clock 'em all and we'll embarrass them into submission....

thechamp87

did the pair of kings hold?

El Stuntman

thechamp87 wrote: »

did the pair of kings hold?

yes, to the tune of under-the-table fist pumps from everyone else!

doke

smurph wrote: »

It must be a french thing.

French guy at my table near the end of day 2 was short-stacked and called clock on the guy to his immediate right pre-flop after about 5 seconds. Again, the dealer refused to accept it.

French guy justified it by saying he was short-stacked (so I guess he wanted as many hands as possible dealt to give him a better chance to find a double up).

Few hands later he did go all-in and I had a marginal call or fold. In the end, his calling of clock earlier swayed me to fold.

Twice I saw guys call clock on themselves. What's that about?

smurph

doke wrote: »

Twice I saw guys call clock on themselves. What's that about?

Are you sure they didn't say "time". That's from America where a player asks for time, because he is saying that he has a big decision and need to mull over it a bit longer.....

doke

smurph wrote: »

Are you sure they didn't say "time". That's from America where a player asks for time, because he is saying that he has a big decision and need to mull over it a bit longer.....

No, was definitely "clock".

Both times they folded too.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

doke wrote: »

French guy at my table near the end of day 2 was short-stacked and called clock on the guy to his immediate right pre-flop after about 5 seconds. Again, the dealer refused to accept it.

French guy justified it by saying he was short-stacked (so I guess he wanted as many hands as possible dealt to give him a better chance to find a double up).

Few hands later he did go all-in and I had a marginal call or fold. In the end, his calling of clock earlier swayed me to fold.

Twice I saw guys call clock on themselves. What's that about?

Dara,

That was me, Arnaud Matten called clock on me after 10 seconds as he wanted to try double up with 11 mins to go at the end of Day 1, the dealer did not accept clock and TD was called. I gave him the evil Irish stare and he grovelled with an apology at the close of play:p

5starpool

doke wrote: »

Twice I saw guys call clock on themselves. What's that about?

Ya, I have seen this a few times in general. They call clock on themselves as they are not able to make a decision and they know they probably won't have clock called by anyone else soon and they really want to force themselves to make a decision. Strange thing though.

doke

Jabari Ashy Stack wrote: »

Dara,

That was me, Arnaud Matten called clock on me after 10 seconds as he wanted to try double up with 11 mins to go at the end of Day 1, the dealer did not accept clock and TD was called. I gave him the evil Irish stare and he grovelled with an apology at the close of play:p

Thought it was you but wasn't sure.

That's a great evil stare you've got. Also loved the shouts of "just this one time":cool:

CelticPhantom

doke wrote: »

Twice I saw guys call clock on themselves. What's that about?

It's a bit like when you have a decision to make and do not know which one to take (out of 2 choices). You take a coin out of your pocket and give option 1 as "heads" and option 2 as "harps". You then flip the coin and put it on the back of one hand, with the other hand covering the coin. With the coin still covered you ask yourself "Do I want this to be heads or harps?".

The idea is that your subconcious will force you to pick the option that you really want. So if you say 'I want it to be heads', then you really prefer option 1.

PS Don't look at the coin before putting it back in your pocket, you'll only frustrate yourself.

Players who call time on themselves cannot decide whether to call or fold, by calling time on themselves they are forced to make a decision.

califano

5starpool wrote: »

Ya, I have seen this a few times in general. They call clock on themselves as they are looking for a cheap laugh. They know they probably won't have clock called by anyone else soon and they really just want a cheap laugh.

FYP

eagle eye

I've seen clock called a few times, and the two times the call was made, they both lost.
I really believe that you have your mind made up in a minute or so at the very longest, and any longer is just ridiculous.
I mean after a minutes thinking its obviously a coin flip, so why would you have to wait any longer?

Flashbadger

smurph wrote: »

It must be a french thing, or perhaps it was the same French guy. A french guy called clock at our table and was not even involved in the hand. Joe beevers raised and Dave Colclough re-raised all in. While joe was going into the tank deciding the French guy calls clock. The dealer (fair play to him) announces that he is not calling clock as in his opinion Not enough time has passed.

What was even more annoying is that there was 1minute 30 seconds until a break... I mean WTF... It was a decision for Dave Colcloughs tournament and It would have crippled Joe.

Eventually Joe folds, and the french bloke says "I didn't mean to be rude but it should have been an automatic call".

Joe beevers was fuming with him. Bad form in my opinion.

I was at that table as well collette and I throughly agreed with the french guy. I also find it out of order that the dealer can overrule a clock call, i have never seen this happen before and I actually asked teh TD if it was allowed.

Joe beevers had taken 90 seconds at least if not 2 mins on that decision. 60 more seconds would be more than adequate. The decision was a joke too as he had raised to around 9k preflop (from 1st pos) and dave C went all in from mid pos with a 23k stack. Joe had a 16k call to make to win 50k. He folded and it was seriously on the verge of chip dumping that eh can fold that hand. There is no hand in poker that can take 4 mins to make that call as its practically an insta call with any 2 hands.

I am with my gallic cousins on this one - there are hardly any times in poker that you need more than 60 secs to make a decision. I dont call clocks as I am very polite but people who take ages over decisions are out of order and are usually acting.

www.f-badger.blogspot.com

bottom feeder

I said CLOCK

dannydiamond

CelticPhantom wrote: »

It's a bit like when you have a decision to make and do not know which one to take (out of 2 choices). You take a coin out of your pocket and give option 1 as "heads" and option 2 as "harps". You then flip the coin and put it on the back of one hand, with the other hand covering the coin. With the coin still covered you ask yourself "Do I want this to be heads or harps?".

The idea is that your subconcious will force you to pick the option that you really want. So if you say 'I want it to be heads', then you really prefer option 1.

PS Don't look at the coin before putting it back in your pocket, you'll only frustrate yourself.

Players who call time on themselves cannot decide whether to call or fold, by calling time on themselves they are forced to make a decision.

This is absurd behaviour from any decent player,one should always be able to calculate a decision whether it be correct or not,anyone playing a decent buyin anyway...just seems like attention seeking to me.

We must also remember that calling clock is often a tactic used to put your opponent under pressure and force him into a mistake,which leads me to the question,
hypothetically,if you were to employ this tactic would it be used to induce a call or a fold??

sickpuppy

I have called clock quite a few times.
Only once did i feel a bit bad about it.
In the se 1 2pl mess icalled clock on john weaver i think red haired nice guy and unfortunately he paid off the biggest knob in irish poker dj spiral on the river.
The most annoying players take an age eg they limp for 2 on the button its raised and reraised and its back on them for 60 or 70 euro,
they make all sorts of faces you know there gonna fold and a minute later they fold,i have no problem and would never call it on someone for a big decison tournament life or a big pot.
Last time i played in the 12nl i called clock on delanec8 because he was half cut for a start was taking an age and it was half 5in the morning.
The dealer said you cant call clock your not even in the hand i informed her im on the table i can she said you cant i said get a ruling,
ruling got and i was correct third time she made daft remarks at the table learn the rules.

doke

dannydiamond wrote: »

hypothetically,if you were to employ this tactic would it be used to induce a call or a fold??

Can't imagine I ever would use this tactic (unless I really really hated the guy or something), seems unsporting, but to answer your question hypothetically, either or both. Would depend on my read of the player and situation. For example, if it was a tight aggressive player you think would never fold a hand they would call with just because you called clock but might make a petulant call to try and bust you with a marginal hand they might otherwise fold, it could be good strategy to call clock. Conversely, if you thought you were dealing with a loose player who is looking for a tell and will interpret your calling of clock as a sign of strength, then it might be good to do it if you're bluffing and want a fold.

Would also depend on history. If you'd already used it as a tactic to get a call and turned over a monstah when your opponent was at the table, might be a good opportunity to use it to disguise a bluff.

careca

doke wrote: »

Twice I saw guys call clock on themselves. What's that about?

Esfandiari did it on HSP, so they think its cool.

I would never call it unless someone is habitually doing it but it can be a pain in the arse when you know someone is just saving face after being caught bluffing and takes forever. 2-3 mins is loads.

smurph

Flashbadger wrote: »

I was at that table as well collette and I throughly agreed with the french guy. I also find it out of order that the dealer can overrule a clock call, i have never seen this happen before and I actually asked teh TD if it was allowed.

Joe beevers had taken 90 seconds at least if not 2 mins on that decision. 60 more seconds would be more than adequate. The decision was a joke too as he had raised to around 9k preflop (from 1st pos) and dave C went all in from mid pos with a 23k stack. Joe had a 16k call to make to win 50k. He folded and it was seriously on the verge of chip dumping that eh can fold that hand. There is no hand in poker that can take 4 mins to make that call as its practically an insta call with any 2 hands.

I am with my gallic cousins on this one - there are hardly any times in poker that you need more than 60 secs to make a decision. I dont call clocks as I am very polite but people who take ages over decisions are out of order and are usually acting.

www.f-badger.blogspot.com

I would never call clock if it is a tournament decision for one of the players, and in fairness there was only 1 minute 30 seconds to the break...

dannydiamond

careca wrote: »

Esfandiari did it on HSP, so they think its cool.

I would never call it unless someone is habitually doing it but it can be a pain in the arse when you know someone is just saving face after being caught bluffing and takes forever. 2-3 mins is loads.

No it's great you should try it,just sitting there picturing that hot waitress naked,knowing you're gonna fold eventually.

Anyone remember sideshow in the last team event in waterford,took a full 5 minutes and folded 8,3 or something similar.The table were terrified of his previous "talking downs" and he was just sitting there as if to say "come on I dare one of ye to call clock on me",and no one would,I think in the end he just got bored and folded face up,it was bizarre but brilliant!

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

doke

dannydiamond wrote: »

No it's great you should try it,just sitting there picturing that hot waitress naked,knowing you're gonna fold eventually.

Anyone remember sideshow in the last team event in waterford,took a full 5 minutes and folded 8,3 or something similar.The table were terrified of his previous "talking downs" and he was just sitting there as if to say "come on I dare one of ye to call clock on me",and no one would,I think in the end he just got bored and folded face up,it was bizarre but brilliant!

I've yet to call clock on anyone ever, but if I'd been at the table, I probably would have. Just for the talking down. There's almost no feeling better or sincerer compliment in poker than when something suddenly starts ranting at you to try and intimidate or tilt you.

dannydiamond

doke wrote: »

I've yet to call clock on anyone ever, but if I'd been at the table, I probably would have. Just for the talking down. There's almost no feeling better or sincerer compliment in poker than when something suddenly starts ranting at you to try and intimidate or tilt you.

speachplay within reason is part of the game and I find it strange that it's allowed in some places and not in others..

nicnicnic

dannydiamond wrote: »

No it's great you should try it,just sitting there picturing that hot waitress naked,knowing you're gonna fold eventually.

Anyone remember sideshow in the last team event in waterford,took a full 5 minutes and folded 8,3 or something similar.The table were terrified of his previous "talking downs" and he was just sitting there as if to say "come on I dare one of ye to call clock on me",and no one would,I think in the end he just got bored and folded face up,it was bizarre but brilliant!

I dont think Danny understud what was actually happening here, probably blurred by 50+ bottles of miller, I was on the table and Sideshow was angling by taking the time he did. I and I assumed the others on the table knew what was going on so we are as guilty as sideshow of angleing/collusion pushing the rules, remember it was a team event and points were involved for finishing positions and it was about 12 players out.

dannydiamond

nicnicnic wrote: »

I dont think Danny understud what was actually happening here, probably blurred by 50+ bottles of miller, I was on the table and Sideshow was angling by taking the time he did. I and I assumed the others on the table knew what was going on so we are as guilty as sideshow of angleing/collusion pushing the rules, remember it was a team event and points were involved for finishing positions and it was about 12 players out.

ohhh,I see,I stand corrected,this is the first time i've thought of this since that night,and yes I do recall being a 'tad' drunk-;)

dannydiamond

doke wrote: »

I've yet to call clock on anyone ever, but if I'd been at the table, I probably would have. Just for the talking down. There's almost no feeling better or sincerer compliment in poker than when something suddenly starts ranting at you to try and intimidate or tilt you.

lol good point,BTW sideshow is nothing but a gent on and off the table and in no way was i implying otherwise.

vikarama

dannydiamond wrote: »

lol good point,BTW sideshow is nothing but a gent on and off the table and in no way was i implying otherwise.

saw that hand sideshow had top pair believe it or not guy to his right check raised with jacks ,early doors i could be wrong will ask him next time i bump into him