certificate of compliance

topcatcbr

Hi all can anybody tell me what is the qualification to submit certificates of compliance for clients. I am an architectural technition and am recieving conflicting information. as it is i employ an engineer to do this for me but it would be very convenient to to it myself.:D

sydthebeat

There is no statutory control or definition of the persons providing Opinions on Compliance.

The law society of Ireland negotiated forms of Opinion on Compliance separately with the IEI, RIAI, and SCS.

Currently the Law society accept opinions of compliance from any professional subscribed to either of the bodies named above, or from persons in full time self employment as an architect for more than 10 years.

However i have heard it claimed from some 'Architectual Technology' companies that the Law Society have no problem accepting certs from them, and they dont fall into any of the above.

Obviously you need the relevant PI insurance behind you. And you need to be able to properly word your certificates.

Mellor

sydthebeat wrote: »

There is no statutory control or definition of the persons providing Opinions on Compliance.

The law society of Ireland negotiated forms of Opinion on Compliance separately with the IEI, RIAI, and SCS.

Currently the Law society accept opinions of compliance from any professional subscribed to either of the bodies named above, or from persons in full time self employment as an architect for more than 10 years.

However i have heard it claimed from some 'Architectual Technology' companies that the Law Society have no problem accepting certs from them, and they dont fall into any of the above.

Obviously you need the relevant PI insurance behind you. And you need to be able to properly word your certificates.

Playing devils advocate here, but couldn't they fall into the RIAI category.

The ten years practicing as an architect is debatable. The title wasn't protected, so anybody could practise previously. The RIAI even accept this practical experience for admission.

The Law society were in talks with DIT on their add on course specificly regarding compliance certs.

sydthebeat

Mellor wrote: »

Playing devils advocate here, but couldn't they fall into the RIAI category.
.

Im not sure about the RIAI policy regarding technicians signing certs of compliance... but from what ive heard its policy in many RIAI offices that the Technician doesnt sign the cert but the 'Primary' who is generally an architect. The situation ive described above could fall under the RIAI umberella, im not sure of the specifics.

Mellor wrote: »

The Law society were in talks with DIT on their add on course specificly regarding compliance certs.

I hadnt heard of this... is this the 'addon Level 8 honours bachelor’s degree programme'.....

archtech

Opinions of compliance are a conveyancing thing rather than as stated above statutory.

The RIAI don't permit technician members to use any of their standard "documentation" including RIAI opinions of compliance ..... that's another days debate.

Very often solicitors (particularly if the person preparing the opinion of compliance is known to the solicitor) don't question the credentials of the person who prepared the opinion of compliance. I know of a number of architectural technician's who regularly sign Opinions of Compliance , yet don't have the 10 years in practice on their own account.

I know CIAT is pursuing the matter with the Law Society of behalf of its Irish members with regard to getting approval.

What I would suggest is maybe talk some of the "conveying" solicitors, whom you do work with and see if they have a problem with you preparing opinions of compliance, if they well then fire ahead, you have nothing to loose.

PI is a requirement, but i understand that it always wasn't.

Mellor

sydthebeat wrote: »

Im not sure about the RIAI policy regarding technicians signing certs of compliance... but from what ive heard its policy in many RIAI offices that the Technician doesnt sign the cert but the 'Primary' who is generally an architect. The situation ive described above could fall under the RIAI umberella, im not sure of the specifics.

In almost all cases the primary will be an architect, but there a small few companies were senior staff (Assc. Directors) are technicians, what is the case here, or the RIAIs. I know this is only a small few cases but is there any rules set out.

I hadnt heard of this... is this the 'addon Level 8 honours bachelor’s degree programme'.....

Yeah, but last I heard was that it had been delayed, and is now going ahead as a level 9 masters.

archtech wrote: »

I know CIAT is pursuing the matter with the Law Society of behalf of its Irish members with regard to getting approval.

A problem there might be the fact that CIAT don't offer any additional recognition for Irish Degrees in Architectural technology. Its quite strange because the industry holds them on the same level, if anything the irish ones are held in higher regard.
They have been question on this public and didn't really answer, except it is under review. I haven't heard differently yet.

archtech

Mellor wrote: »

A problem there might be the fact that CIAT don't offer any additional recognition for Irish Degrees in Architectural technology.Its quite strange because the industry holds them on the same level, if anything the irish ones are held in higher regard.

The problem as I understand it, is the ordinary BSc in Architectural Technology is only level 7 (and this was accepted at the time of grading by the colleges... yet the courses are properly or close to level 8 in DIT and WIT anyway). CIAT and other professional bodies (Engineers Ireland, SCS etc) can only accredit level 8 courses for "professional" membership. It is nothing to do with the course content or how good the course is, it is to do with the course level set be the relevant educational overseeing bodies .

I understand that discussions are currently taking place between CIAT and the Irish colleges, with regard to level 8 courses and progressing CIAT membership.(accrediting the courses)

Mellor wrote: »

They have been question on this public and didn't really answer, except it is under review. I haven't heard differently yet.

I can tell you that the process is underway, however it is not expected to happen overnight.... like most dealing with Law Society.

Mellor

archtech wrote: »

The problem as I understand it, is the ordinary BSc in Architectural Technology is only level 7 (and this was accepted at the time of grading by the colleges... yet the courses are properly or close to level 8 in DIT and WIT anyway). CIAT and other professional bodies (Engineers Ireland, SCS etc) can only accredit level 8 courses for "professional" membership. It is nothing to do with the course content or how good the course is, it is to do with the course level set be the relevant educational overseeing bodies

As far as I am aware the "level 7 or 8" designation is awarded by FETAC, which is an irish institution . The content of the UK courses and irish courses are assessed by CIAT and RIAI, but this is not related to the "level" of the course. The CIAT recognaise everything from nation cert up for professional membership, but only honours degrees for chartered membertship.

My point is that the CIAT don't offer any extra recognition of the level 7 degrees in ireland over the previous level 6. When the courses upgraded to level 7, they included the elements that were presemnt in the UKs honours degrees. WIT offer a level 8 course as an add-on which isn't recognaised.

As I said they offer charter membership to honours degrees only. The honours degrees in the UK are accepted to have the same course content of the irish ordinary degrees. The level of the degree is set at national level so there is no relation between the UK and Ireland as to the standard for ordinary or honours designation. For example, 3 years degrees in ireland are all ordinary (for all subjects), but in the UK many of the accredited degrees are 3 years long (if they were based in ireland they would be classed ordinary, and visa versa with irish degrees)

It seams to come down more to the course title than content. I suppose at least the CIAT recognaise something above basic level, the RIAI doesn't yet.

I can tell you that the process is underway, however it is not expected to happen overnight.... like most dealing with Law Society.

That bit was in relation to CIAT and Irish degrees not law society will of course take time.
Does anybody know what would happen to people who already have diploma/degrees if irish degrees are accredited in the future.

archtech

As far as I am aware the "level 7 or 8" designation is awarded by FETAC, which is an irish institution .

You're right there about FETAC, the UK have an equilavant , as does much of Europe as far as I know , to allow interchange of students between colleges and counties. In ireland we have a habit of setting our education standards that bit higher than elsewhere, which is generally good, but you don't get any additional recognition for it.

The content of the UK courses and irish courses are assessed by CIAT and RIAI, but this is not related to the "level" of the course.

There are architectural technology courses with level 7 awards, yet have no assessment of content from either the CIAT or RIAI. Its not a requirement of an architectural technology course to be accessed by a professional body (be it the RIAI or CIAT). The CIAT or RIAI can't prevent somebody form setting up an architectural technology course without their prior approval. I'm sure it would be different if the term architectural technology was a registered title.

The CIAT recognaise everything from nation cert up for professional membership, but only honours degrees for chartered membertship.

Not true one can progress to Chartered membership from a national cert in CIAT if you want to, via technician/profile route(does take time however but it can still be done)

WIT offer a level 8 course as an add-on which isn't recognaised.

WIT's level 7 & 8 courses are (recognized as is DIT's), however level 8 it is not accredited as WIT hadn't applied to CIAT to have the course accredited in the past. They have now done so and it is expected that the course with be accredited fairly soon. DIT are also in contact with CIAT regarding thier course, which DIT are currently reviewing themselves.

As I said they offer charter membership to honours degrees only. The honours degrees in the UK are accepted to have the same course content of the irish ordinary degrees. The level of the degree is set at national level so there is no relation between the UK and Ireland as to the standard for ordinary or honours designation. For example, 3 years degrees in ireland are all ordinary (for all subjects), but in the UK many of the accredited degrees are 3 years long (if they were based in ireland they would be classed ordinary, and visa versa with irish degrees)

It seams to come down more to the course title than content.

Unfortunately the course content doesn't come into it until the course is classified as a certain level .. level 8 for Chartered Membership. By the way not all level 8 courses in the UK are accredited by CIAT as they don't meet the institutes's standard.( I got the impression from some of the senior DIT staff that they sold themselves and their course short accepting level 7 status for their diploma/ordinary degree course and that level 8 would have been a more accurate level, if that had happened well then we would be having this debate.
Its the standard awarded by FETAC that's the problem, not the content.

That bit was in relation to CIAT and Irish degrees not law society will of course take time.
Does anybody know what would happen to people who already have diploma/degrees if irish degrees are accredited in the future.

You will still have to complete your POP record, as you do if the course is accredited. only difference is for accredited level 8 you can immediately progress to the Chartered membership, rather than Technician membership. I don't think that there will be any "relaxation" for existing degrees/diploma holders as where do you draw the line.... Current Diploma holders with 10 years experience can progress directly to Chartered membership without having to first complete the technician POP record and attain technician membership. People complain about the POP record beginning a pain to complete but it does access a lot of competencies.... the language is a bit too academic at times.

Mellor

archtech wrote: »

In ireland we have a habit of setting our education standards that bit higher than elsewhere, which is generally good, but you don't get any additional recognition for it.

Good for education, bad for recognition

There are architectural technology courses with level 7 awards, yet have no assessment of content from either the CIAT or RIAI. Its not a requirement of an architectural technology course to be accessed by a professional body (be it the RIAI or CIAT). The CIAT or RIAI can't prevent somebody form setting up an architectural technology course without their prior approval.

Not quite true, the RIAI or CIAT can't stop an institute settign up a course, but they don't have to recognaise it for any sort of membership.
And both the RIAI and CIAT access the content of the courses regularly. I can only comment specificly with DIT as thats where I went, but DIT is regcognaised by both CIAT and RIAI (for technician membership to both), this is assessed every few years (3 or 5 I believe), this was last assessed in DIT in april/may 2007.

Not true one can progress to Chartered membership from a national cert in CIAT if you want to, via technician/profile route(does take time however but it can still be done)

oh, I know you can eventualy make it, I just ment its unfair the way it is graded.

Unfortunately the course content doesn't come into it until the course is classified as a certain level .. level 8 for Chartered Membership. By the way not all level 8 courses in the UK are accredited by CIAT as they don't meet the institutes's standard.

See above

I got the impression from some of the senior DIT staff that they sold themselves and their course short accepting level 7 status for their diploma/ordinary degree course and that level 8 would have been a more accurate level, if that had happened well then we would be having this debate.
Its the standard awarded by FETAC that's the problem, not the content.

I don't think they had a choice, afaik there are no 3 year honours degrees in the country, its problem with FETAC. They could of possibably pushed it to break this rule. It is possibably the most intense level 7 course in the country

The UK and Irish courses could be identical but because fetac calls the irish one level 7 ordinary it won't be rated the same. Its my opinion that CIAT and RIAI should look beyond simply the title of the course.
As for honours degrees in the UK not accredited, I can safely say that both DIT and WIT are above that level.

You will still have to complete your POP record, as you do if the course is accredited. only difference is for accredited level 8 you can immediately progress to the Chartered membership, rather than Technician membership. I don't think that there will be any "relaxation" for existing degrees/diploma holders as where do you draw the line.... Current Diploma holders with 10 years experience can progress directly to Chartered membership without having to first complete the technician POP record and attain technician membership. People complain about the POP record beginning a pain to complete but it does access a lot of competencies.... the language is a bit too academic at times.

It probably only applies to recent gradutes, with a degree and less than 10 years. But say next year the degree is upgraded to level 8 by fetac and is then accredited by CIAT (content is the same) would those that completed the revised course be able to go to Charter membership direct, which is what is sought really.
I think they should, considering that people who completed two years of a diplioma programme and a year of a degree programme recieved a degree (the degree year wasn't even the full new course)

topcatcbr

Thank you very much its great the wealth of knowladge available on this site i often scan for answers to questions i might have.

topcatcbr

has everyone seen this site http://www.architecturaltechnology.ie/ i think it is of interest to all technitions/ technologists.

archtech

And both the RIAI and CIAT access the content of the courses regularly.

Only where they are invited to do so, at present its only DIT and WIT that invite their courses to be assessed as far as I know (in CIAT's case). Most of the other Institutes of Technology offer architectural technology courses and from what I have heard haven't contacted either the RIAI or CIAT with regard to their courses content.

I don't think they had a choice, afaik there are no 3 year honours degrees in the country, its problem with FETAC. They could of possibably pushed it to break this rule.

There are 3 year honours Accountancy degrees with level 8 status.... so it could have been a possibility. Its properly more to do with the politics within the educational institutes themselves that held back the awarding of 3 years honours degrees.

It is possibably the most intense level 7 course in the country

Totally agree with you here, as you said yourself "good for education bad for recognition"

The UK and Irish courses could be identical but because fetac calls the irish one level 7 ordinary it won't be rated the same.Its my opinion that CIAT and RIAI should look beyond simply the title of the course.

Unfortunately they can't as they have to adhere to the requirements of the National Framework of Qualifications and European Qualifications Framework.

As for honours degrees in the UK not accredited, I can safely say that both DIT and WIT are above that level.

I would totally agree with you here too

It probably only applies to recent gradutes, with a degree and less than 10 years. But say next year the degree is upgraded to level 8 by fetac and is then accredited by CIAT (content is the same) would those that completed the revised course be able to go to Charter membership direct, which is what is sought really.

I would image that will be an issue between CIAT and the relevant College. However how many additional people would actually join CIAT if the course was accredited? One still has to complete a POP record.If people were really interested in becoming Chartered members of CIAT they would join anyway.

I think they should, considering that people who completed two years of a diplioma programme and a year of a degree programme received a degree (the degree year wasn't even the full new course)

I would expect that those who are within the education system, when the courses are accredited with be rewarded, as at the end of the day their work will form part of the assessment for accreditation.

Mellor

archtech wrote: »

There are 3 year honours Accountancy degrees with level 8 status.... so it could have been a possibility. Its properly more to do with the politics within the educational institutes themselves that held back the awarding of 3 years honours degrees.

I wasn't aware of that.
but if the accredited UK courses were in ireland they would be level 7 (in my opinion). Which is the part that gets to me.

I would image that will be an issue between CIAT and the relevant College. However how many additional people would actually join CIAT if the course was accredited? One still has to complete a POP record.If people were really interested in becoming Chartered members of CIAT they would join anyway.

If it meant a means to sign off on planning and or building reg compliance then I would join. But not until then, or a similar gain is offered. I am 100% convinced that a technologist is in a better position to comment on planning and regs.

With a bit of luck the IATGN will assess the problems faced by irish ATs

archtech

If it meant a means to sign off on planning and or building reg compliance then I would join. But not until then, or a similar gain is offered.

Unfortunately if everyone takes this view, and waits until agreement is reached with the Law Socitey before joining, the case put by CIAT(the any institue for architectural technologists) would be weaker than one which can demostrate to respresent a larger number of architectural technologists.

BTW if CIAT did reach agreement with the Law Socitey, only its Chartered members would be eligable to signed the approved forms of opinions of complicance, so anyone joining at that stage would have to complete their POP record and progress to Chartered Membership, which based on my experience of completing it to date will take about 2 years to complete.

I am 100% convinced that a technologist is in a better position to comment on planning and regs.

I totally agree

With a bit of luck the IATGN will assess the problems faced by irish ATs.

I assume that you meant address. I expect that they will, however it won't be pain sailing and there's alot of work to be done and it will take time

Mellor

archtech wrote: »

BTW if CIAT did reach agreement with the Law Socitey, only its Chartered members would be eligable to signed the approved forms of opinions of complicance, so anyone joining at that stage would have to complete their POP record and progress to Chartered Membership, which based on my experience of completing it to date will take about 2 years to complete.

Thats fair enough. I'd expect no less to be honest. Out of curiosity, from what stage did it take two years, from assciate members ships direct to charted, or from technician membership up.
I have thought about going for it on and off, but I imagine it would take a while to get both pop records complete.

I assume that you meant address. I expect that they will, however it won't be pain sailing and there's alot of work to be done and it will take time

Addressing them would be better I suppose:D:p;)
Will take a long time, its been two years already and frame work is only in place. We should just go ahead and set up our own organisation through the forum. I think we have about 6-8 regular ATs posting now

archtech

Out of curiosity, from what stage did it take two years, from assciate members ships direct to charted, or from technician membership up.
I have thought about going for it on and off, but I imagine it would take a while to get both pop records complete.

I'm progressing from Associate to Chartered. (almost there after 18 months or so, have about 75 % of the units complete the rest its really a matter of tidying up the information and addressing any weak points.. Finding time is the big issue).The wording in the POP record can be very off putting at times. If it was starting it again I would have started with one new project and followed it through right from start to finish as would have been much easier.

There's more in the Chartered than the Technician, however what you do in the technician is all used in the Chartered anyway.The technician pop record would be straight forward for anyone who is anyway switched on. The only drawback is technician members can't be in private practice on their own (or as a director ).There's more to the Chartered, mainly to do with managing projects, tenders/contracts etc

I think we have about 6-8 regular ATs posting now

And feck all posting on the IATGN forum :eek:

sydthebeat

archtech wrote: »

And feck all posting on the IATGN forum :eek:

Theres nothing to post about!! Its tumble weed town over there.

Arch tech, with the risk of hijacking a thread (that seems to have been completed after the first few posts anyway.... do you find the Technician membership of CIAT useful in any practical way?

archtech

I didn't complete the Technician membership, as I was admitted as an associate member (10+ experience) and can progress straight to Chartered. Regarding how useful it is i suppose if you didn't have a Dip Arch Tech or similar qualification it would allow you be recognition as and Architectural Technician if you completed it. I think there is only 1 or 2 CIAT technician members in Ireland at the moment, so I don't know of any benefits other than as a stepping stone to Chartered.

sydthebeat

Thanks for that....

so can a dip arch tech enter straight as an associate member??

archtech

sydthebeat wrote: »

Thanks for that....

so can a dip arch tech enter straight as an associate member??

Normally yes,(in the case of WIT & DIT) however if you are in practice own your own you have to go the profile route. If you want I can pm you the contact details of the ROI membership officer who is the best man to speak with

sydthebeat

Please do.. .thanks....

topcatcbr

archtech wrote: »

Normally yes,(in the case of WIT & DIT) however if you are in practice own your own you have to go the profile route. If you want I can pm you the contact details of the ROI membership officer who is the best man to speak with

Arch tech can you pm me details also as i joined CIOB as incorporate cos of the private practice clause
ty