Eurocarparks

billyhead

Hi,

I parked my car in a shopping center car park for just over 3 hours last Saturday (thinking) it would be safe enough their while I went into town on the bus and when I came back to the car I found a fine notice stuck to the wipers for €50 to be paid to above private car park contractors. I was quite livid . I was just wondering has anyone ever received one of these fines and not paid it. It states on the document that if it is not paid within 30 days the fine amounts to €80 but how would they know your address when because its a private firm they would not have access to the Garda pulse system. I know if it was the county council they could get access to this.

CantGetNoSleep

I dont know the answer to your question but,

By any chance does your car have unusual sized wheels that their clamp may not have fitted?

If it was me i'd f*ck the fine in the bin

Our man in Havana

I seriously doubt they have access to the VRO database, access is restricted to a very few state and semi state bodies. In any case that will only give them the registered owners details and not the drivers who may be totally different.

The "fine" you got is nothing more than an invoice for parking based on an alleged contract between the driver and car park operator. To enforce their alleged contract they have to prove that you saw and read the signs and agreed to their terms. If they do contact you as the registered owner simply tell them to go after the driver. You are not obliged to name the driver. Basic contract law applies here.

This is not the UK where the DVLA sell the RK details to parking companies for £2.50 a go. I seriously doubt you will ever hear of this again.

See http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?autocom=ibwiki&cmd=article&id=56 the same principles apply here too.

Maximilian

Private clamping (as opposed to Dublin Corp clamping) is a personal bugbear of mine, although it has never happened to me yet. Personally, I would forceably remove the clamp & let them try and sue me. If I didn't sue them first.

In my view the fine and a fortiori the increase thereof, is completely unenforceable. I'd love a chance to have this out with one of these companies in Court.

As regards the Pulse system, if you or I have no access to it, then a private firm won't either.

Victor

Bond-007 wrote: »

Pete Jones, Advisor in Criminal Law

that sounds like "I am not a lawyer, but ......."

NUTLEY BOY

I am not a lawyer either but I do know stuff.....:)

I know nothing about the particular firm mentioned and make no reference to them, either express or implied, in what I say - defamation and all that !

Generally, I hate private clampers. Illegal parkers get what they deserve when they do things like park across two spaces, park in disabled bays and the like. However, I have seen private clampers (not this firm) in certain places nabbing people for the barest of technical infringements. They can be a bit aggressive and sharpish about it as well.

I regard the latter brand of "parking enforcement" as being cynically despicable and avaracious. They might call it robust zeal........:mad:

If you drive in to a car park and you see a notice displaying tems and conditions two alternatives arise. You can leave if you don't accept the terms and conditions. Alternatively, if you enter and park you accept the terms and effectively form a contract.

Incidentally, if you enter a car park that has a ticket and barrier system and the terms and conditions are only viewable AFTER you have entered I think that there is an argument that you are not bound by those terms and conditions as they were not communicated to you before forming the contract. (Thornton -v- Shoe Lane Parking 1971).

I infer that this was not a barrier and ticket system but rather a free for 3 hours scenario.

I assume that you saw the notice before you entered the car park and that you accepted it's terms by proceeding to park there. If you breached the terms on which you were permitted to park that probably provided the excuse required to trigger the imposition of the penalty. (That is why you sometimes see guys going around with what looks a like a big calculator entering registration numbers and times so that they can identify offending vehicles in 3 hours time.)

Again, I assume that there was a notice warning you of the penalties if you parked outside the terms shown on the sign. If there was no such sign it is going to be hard for clampers to enforce a fine based on a contract term not communicated to you.

In a certain place near me there are signs in the many car parks warning you to park in designated spaces only, that you are liable to be clamped and advising you of the release fee. I have a quibble about the legal adequacy of some of those notices as the final bill may end up being actually higher than the amount stated on the notice:mad::mad:

The best advice is just not to give these people the excuse that they want to catch you out. If you accept the terms of a car park and then breach them you may expect to be penalised.

If you are legitimately clamped then you leave yourself open to a charge of criminal damage if you break the clamp and one of theft if you make off with it !

If you are illegitimately clamped the clampers are open to a charge of criminal damage as damage includes rendering something inoperable [Criminal Damage Act 1991]. It is also an offence to unlawfully interfere with the mechanism of a mechanically propelled vehicle but that offence only refers to public places [S113. RTA 1961].

As far as identification goes the clampers have a simple option if the fine is not paid. Apart from writing down the registration number I have often seen them take photographs for evidential back up. They can then write to the motor taxation office of the local authority with which the car is registered, pay a fee and get details of the current registered owner. I would not be surprised if they also asked for reimbursement of that fee too !

MORAL : Read the signs and don't give them the excuse that they need :mad:

Our man in Havana

The VRO in Shannon will not give these details to anyone that writes in and askes for them. As for proving a contract, the clampers would have to prove that the driver has read the signs and agreed to the terms. I don't think a court would hold that the driver agreed to a contract without proving he had read and understood the signs. It is up to the clampers to prove this happened.

In the UK this has become a major problem with hundreds of private parking companies(PPC) operating. They can pay the DVLA £2.50 a pop for the owners details. They then write to them demanding various sums of money or else court is threatened. There has not been one successful claim by a PPC against a car owner claiming for fines on private land. I suggest you read http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?autocom=ibwiki&cmd=article&id=56 which gives the full lowdown on the UK situation. As contract law is very similar here I would expect the same position to be held in the courts here if such a case ever came to light.

This case in Waterford is of significant note:

Judge ruled clamping illegal at WIT 18/1/2007
Judge William Harnett ruled at Waterford district court last week that WIT has no authority to clamp the Vehicles of people who park illegally at its cork road campus.

The case originated when a clamp was removed from a car by its owner on January 5th last year. The judge ruled that the owner was entitled to remove something that was stuck to his car by whatever means and if it damages his car, he was entitled to claim damages.

While there where notices up in the car park informing motorists that clamping was in operation, Judge Harnett ruled that there were no laws to support that notice before dismissing the case.

WITSU expects that WIT will seek legal clarification on this matter and that clamping will continue for now. WITSU welcomes the ruling that clamping is illegal, however does not encourage motorists to park in dangerous or unhelpful positions.

Maximilian

Assuming the clamping forms part of the contract, it is clearly penal in nature. I fail to see how it could survive the unfair terms in consumer contracts regulations.

Victor

Bond-007 wrote: »

The VRO in Shannon will not give these details to anyone that writes in and askes for them. As for proving a contract, the clampers would have to prove that the driver has read the signs and agreed to the terms. I don't think a court would hold that the driver agreed to a contract without proving he had read and understood the signs. It is up to the clampers to prove this happened.

Conspicuous notice is usually sufficient. Otherwise you are suggesting that one need not read the prices on a menu in a fancy restuarant and can just haggle for McDonald's prices afterwards. While the court might impose quantum meruit, they are likely to do so at fancy restuarant menu prices.

In the UK this has become a major problem with hundreds of private parking companies(PPC) operating. They can pay the DVLA £2.50 a pop for the owners details. They then write to them demanding various sums of money or else court is threatened. There has not been one successful claim by a PPC against a car owner claiming for fines on private land.

Is this a selective statement - a half truth? A PPC can't normally impose a fine, fines are for judges. What are the figures for other amounts recovered by PPCs?

Of course, they could seek a prosecution for trepass under the Housing Acts - fine up to €3,000.

Our man in Havana

I should have called the "fines" invoices, which is what they really are.

Conspicuous notice is usually sufficient. Otherwise you are suggesting that one need not read the prices on a menu in a fancy restuarant and can just haggle for McDonald's prices afterwards. While the court might impose quantum meruit, they are likely to do so at fancy restuarant menu prices.

They can only recover their actual losses which would be very small nominally less than €5. Hardly worth suing for. In the UK PPC's have sought to recover amounts from £100 to £500. None have ever been sucessful against a motorist in recovering the amounts claimed.

johnnyrotten

A relation of mine parked "Illegially" today on private property.She came back to her car to find a parking "Fine" of €30 from euro car parks
I told her to bin it as they cannot enforce it. Ideas?

Our man in Havana

I would certainly ignore it. They may write looking for the money but just continue to ignore them.

johnnyrotten

I have told her that they have no access to the database on ownership.

Sully

WIT are still clamping but change companys a lot. Since that case, one student has cut of the clamp and the Gardai refused to do anything stating that no laws were in place. The new security company are giving out fines (even for those not clamped, but parked illegaly) which seem to be ignored (confusing in the notice stuck on the window, it seems to suggest you only pay if you get clamped).

Our man in Havana

The new security company are giving out fines.

Only a court or government agency such as the Gardaí can fine people not a private entity such as a private clamper/security company.

Such "fines" are nothing more than invoices which are unenforceable. How can the clamper/security company obtain the registered owners name and address? In any event any course of action is against the driver and not the registered owner. The registered owner is under no obligation to name the driver. The net result is the invoice is unenforceable.

Sully

Bond-007 wrote: »

Only a court or government agency such as the Gardaí can fine people not a private entity such as a private clamper/security company.

Such "fines" are nothing more than invoices which are unenforceable. How can the clamper/security company obtain the registered owners name and address? In any event any course of action is against the driver and not the registered owner. The registered owner is under no obligation to name the driver. The net result is the invoice is unenforceable.

They dont seem to be enforced, just seems to be clutching at straws.

NewApproach

Long shot here, but I was parked on a public road, didnt pay the €2 (i know, i know), and came beck to a €40 fine stuck under the windscreen wiper.

Is there any legal loophole out of this? I am broke at the moment so a €40 fine isnt the best news I've heard all week!!

Im thinking along the lines of it being 'pinched' from my windscreen...

Our man in Havana

That won't work. They will have a photo of the notice in place.

timmywex

Just thought id bump this back up there instead of making a new one.

Was sitting in a dunnes carpark today, 2 friends were gone into the dunnes getting rolls. I was with the car as they'd only be ten or so minutes.

Anyway mister car park attendant comes over(from a large private firm). Asks do i have a ticket, i say no, he says why not etc etc, i say im only waiting. He goes off on a tantrum that i can either pay or leave or be fined. I told him i was waiting for my friends who were purchasing something in the store.

Then anyway i said he could give me a fine if he wants but i wouldnt pay it and he couldnt get my details.

He went on about just asking in the motor tax office, to which i replyed he couldnt becasue of data protection laws etc. But he was adamment, but tbh i think he was just trying to scare me.


Im right in saying they have no access to details or no means of getting the details?! Ill be ringing the motor tax office on monday anyway aswell as the company, and if theres a sliver of thruth the data commissioner will be informed!

Was satisfying all the same, he started leaning on my car when talking, told him to get off or i was calling the gards. Then i took out my phone to record what he was saying(public place etc etc) so he walked away. Parkers 1 - 0 Enforcers!

satcie101

I got 2 fines from eurocarparks about a year and a half ago. I have never paid them and it has not come back to me yet.

Our man in Havana

There is no chance of them getting your details. It is all scare tactics.
The problem is that the general public don't know this and will most likely pay these thugs out of fear.

timmywex

Bond-007 wrote: »

There is no chance of them getting your details. It is all scare tactics.
The problem is that the general public don't know this and will most likely pay these thugs out of fear.

Certainly thought the same alright.

He seemed certain though so got me thinking aswell!!

cheers

Tefral

i used to work for Eurocarparks, i never clamped anyone unless it was a disabled space, and many of the lads that worked with me felt the same.

With regard to the fines, i know that they dont follow it up... just ignore it. Its all a deterrent nothing more

Jo King

timmywex wrote: »

Just thought id bump this back up there instead of making a new one.

Was sitting in a dunnes carpark today, 2 friends were gone into the dunnes getting rolls. I was with the car as they'd only be ten or so minutes.

Anyway mister car park attendant comes over(from a large private firm). Asks do i have a ticket, i say no, he says why not etc etc, i say im only waiting. He goes off on a tantrum that i can either pay or leave or be fined. I told him i was waiting for my friends who were purchasing something in the store.

Then anyway i said he could give me a fine if he wants but i wouldnt pay it and he couldnt get my details.

He went on about just asking in the motor tax office, to which i replyed he couldnt becasue of data protection laws etc. But he was adamment, but tbh i think he was just trying to scare me.


Im right in saying they have no access to details or no means of getting the details?! Ill be ringing the motor tax office on monday anyway aswell as the company, and if theres a sliver of thruth the data commissioner will be informed!

Was satisfying all the same, he started leaning on my car when talking, told him to get off or i was calling the gards. Then i took out my phone to record what he was saying(public place etc etc) so he walked away. Parkers 1 - 0 Enforcers!

He himself may have been committing a criminal offence. S11 of the Non Fatal Offences Against the Person Act 1997.

11.—(1) A person who makes any demand for payment of a debt shall be guilty of an offence if—

( a ) the demands by reason of their frequency are calculated to subject the debtor or a member of the family of the debtor to alarm, distress or humiliation, or

( b ) the person falsely represents that criminal proceedings lie for non-payment of the debt, or

( c ) the person falsely represents that he or she is authorised in some official capacity to enforce payment, or

( d ) the person utters a document falsely represented to have an official character.

(2) A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £1,500.

Report him to the guards for pretending he was authorised in some official capacity to enforce payment.

timmywex

Jo King wrote: »

He himself may have been committing a criminal offence. S11 of the Non Fatal Offences Against the Person Act 1997.



Report him to the guards for pretending he was authorised in some official capacity to enforce payment.

Interesting to know for the next encounter! But just aint worth reporting tbh!!

Kinda nearly want to go down now and let him come on over again, would be interesting to see his reply

Victor

Jo King wrote: »

Report him to the guards for pretending he was authorised in some official capacity to enforce payment.

Um, he was the car park attendant, demanding payment for use of the car park. :rolleyes:

ronano

Excuse my ignorance but i'm trying to understand if the following is correct

1. if it's private parking area/private clampers then anything they issue is just a suggestion rather than enforeable fine

2. if its on public property eg. parking beside merrion square or stephens green,you can be done legally?

are there public clampers out there at all?

Our man in Havana

ronano wrote: »

Excuse my ignorance but i'm trying to understand if the following is correct

1. if it's private parking area/private clampers then anything they issue is just a suggestion rather than enforeable fine

Yes, you are right it is merely an unenforceable invoice.

ronano wrote: »

2. if its on public property eg. parking beside merrion square or stephens green,you can be done legally?

Yes. Once it is owned by the council you can be ticketed, clamped or towed.

ronano wrote: »

are there public clampers out there at all?

Yes there are, those working for the councils.

Jo King

Victor wrote: »

Um, he was the car park attendant, demanding payment for use of the car park. :rolleyes:

He represented that he or his employer had access to official i.e. government records to enforce payment.This was a misrepresentation intended to indicate that there was an official as opposed to a private contractual right to payment of a penalty.

Victor

Jo King wrote: »

He represented that he or his employer had access to official i.e. government records to enforce payment.This was a misrepresentation intended to indicate that there was an official as opposed to a private contractual right to payment of a penalty.

Can they not get a court order to have those records released? Not that they do it that often.

Our man in Havana

Nope. Any sane judge would tell them to get lost.

Jo King

Victor wrote: »

Can they not get a court order to have those records released? Not that they do it that often.

Tell me that last time that a private security company obtained a court order for the release of the details of a vehicle registration.
Do you seriously think that any company is going to pay a solicitor to issue proceedings in a situation where they do not even know if the person driving the car was the registered owner. They can only have a contract with the person driving the car. They cannot force the registered owner to say who was driving the car at the time. The claim for damages is dubious anyway.

Even if some lunatic tried to do it it is very unlikely a court would order the disclosure of the information for such a trivial dispute.

celt262

Got one of these Euro car Park fines earlier and have just ripped it up after reading this thread.

Will be telling the car park attendent what i think of it next time i see him also.

raglan

Went to Newry today, which I do frequently. I usually park in quays or Tk maxx car park but I happened to park in small car park beside to the side of Poundstretchers. Didn't notice any signs....not that I was looking out for them at that stage..Did some shopping and offloaded it back to car. Had to go to quays but instead of driving over because of hassle of getting a space etc....I walked over. Got back to car, about to drive of and something was on windscreen. A parking fine for £70, £50 if paid before end of July....I was livid...then I noticed the signs for 2 hour parking. I can honestly say I never noticed them before...and I always pay for parking at parking meter if I see one, but no parking meters in this area, which was an area I know well but I was totally oblivious to signs stuck to lamposts up high until I received ticket. Signs are also in small Dunnes car park.

According to the time on ticket I was in car park for 3 hours. Even though I know I did wrong, I wasn't blocking access, cars were coming and going and there were empty spaces around me, I feel that £70 is way too excessive as I go to Newry to shop from south in a bid to save money. £10 for this offence would be more applicable, I feel.

Has anyone not paid these euro car park fines, and what has been the penalty? I would prefer to pay to avoid heavy penalties but like everyone else finding things tight. Anyone any experience of this type of company?

Our man in Havana

Nothing will happen. Ignore it and move on.

mountainyman

What if I cut the lock on a clamp?

MM

Our man in Havana

If you replace said lock, nothing.

Saruman

I also got one of these notices, I was only about 30 minutes over the allowed 3 hours and I never even left the site. I ignored it knowing they could do nothing. About the worst thing they could do is if I go back there and they recognise the car, they could clamp it and force me to go find a snip or lock cutter thing to release it myself.

heini

raglan if your motor is UK registered they can follow you up if its ROI registered you have nothing to worry about - tickets on private land in the republic of ireland are totally unenforceable

johnny_adidas

came across this thread as OH was just clamped in waterford industrial estate up by the college & AIB bank. no idea of where she was exactly parked and as she was only dropping off an assignment, can have been for more than a few minutes. Im more of a dont give them the excuse myself but i was just thinking about the following in light of this thread

in the case of a car being clamped by a private parking company, can someone pay to have the clamp removed by credit card and just cancel the payment afterwards or does that amount to admission of commiting a parking violation on the private property

its off the car now as she has to return home (as much as id love to travel down and cut it off after work)

Our man in Havana

in the case of a car being clamped by a private parking company, can someone pay to have the clamp removed by credit card and just cancel the payment afterwards or does that amount to admission of commiting a parking violation on the private property

You could attempt to argue payment under duress, but I doubt a credit card company would accept that. The only recourse would be to sue the clampers.

johnny_adidas

Thanks for the quick reply