Removing bolts

cavedave

I was in Dalkey yesterday. Around the top of Paradise Lost a bolt had been placed and removed.

What is your opinion on putting bolts into quarries?

Evil Phil

Is that what you're talking about? I'm glad its been removed. Looks unsafe to me, it isn't any type of climbing clip I've ever seen and I wouldn't trust it. I was also under the impression that any new anchors going into Dalkey would be discreet and out of the way. Not in the middle of a path like that one.

There has been a lot of discussion over the last 6 months about putting such secure anchors into Dalkey. I'm all for it as long as its done properly and with consultation not just with climbers but with the locals too. Somebody is talking to the MCI at present about putting ring type anchors in off the paths, they have stated that they will be consulting the local council about local needs before they do. This is a good idea, as the locals do have some say with regards to our access so it's better to keep them on our side.

The bolt above was placed by somebody well-meaning but uninformed about the requirments for such protection.

cavedave

The bolt above was placed by somebody well-meaning but uninformed about the requirments for such protection.

Any bolt of dubious safety should be removed I agree with that. And the bolt above looks odd alright.

Making the bolts thought out and well placed also seems like a good idea.

What places are suitable for bolting? There are a number of climbs in Dalkey that are easy to top rope but very hard to lead. There are a few that can only really be lead climbed at present (AFAIK). Does bolting these climbs not dilute the experience?

Evil Phil

Yes it does. Think of it this way: All the routes in Dalkey were led on the first ascent. There are approx 100 climbs in Dalkey at a level under VS. That's about a third of whats in the guide book and its loads. Well over half the climbs are HVS or below. That's not hard climbing, anyone who's keen can get to that level. If a climb is too hard to lead then either drop a grade or look for something with better protection.

pirelli

IAA SAYS NO!

The MCI has posted a bolting policy and it appears that Bolting will be never be allowed and even in emergencies it is safer to use actual accident-management situations will call for the rapid fixing of quality anchors to expedite the rescue. This can best be achieved by the safe use of modern rock-climbing equipment.
Thus it asks any agency, group or service provider who may have place fixed equipment at Irish cliffs or crags to remove same. This request is made in what is felt by the MCI to be in the best interest of all those who use Irish outdoor sites for recreation and sport.



http://www.mountaineering.ie/aboutthemci/tier1viewdetials.asp?ID=6&Tier1ID=13


" I agree in principle with this, but in an area like Dalky one or two permanant bolts should at least be considered.The question is though would that be seen as a luxury that will be used by spoilt climbers ?. In europe they have bolts everywhere. I know that the irish alpine asscoiation dont want this but dalky isnt alpine and its use is predominantly for rock climbing. You cant stop someone climbing without a rope or anchor so what is the harm in supplying some anchor points for professional use. "

peter-pantslez

that bolt looks like it was home made i work on sites and have seen similar shape stell to that before knocking around the site............i wouldnt go using it:eek:

i dont think they should bolt the climbs it takes all the experience out of it... ballykeefe quary is all bolted and its no real challenge!!!!

Evil Phil

I don't think anyone is suggesting that they bolt the climbs. I really an issue of secure anchors. With the amount of climbing traffic Dalkey sees a few more anchors like the iron ring at the top of the ghost slab wouldn't be any harm. Wouldn't take the challange out of the climbs either.

However, that *bolt* above is another matter ...

cavedave

I agree in principle with this, but in an area like Dalky one or two permanant bolts should at least be considered

Evil Phil
I don't think anyone is suggesting that they bolt the climbs

I am suggesting they bolt some climbs.
I have not heard a great reason why bolting one or two of the VS climbs is such a terrible thing.

However, that *bolt* above is another matter ...

That bolt in the picture is hairier then a bears arse.

peter-pantslez

yeah a few more of them iron rings would be great for tying in to.:)

but dont bolt the climbs stick with the traditonal climbing if you bolt them your make it in sport climbing:(

Evil Phil

cavedave wrote: »

I am suggesting they bolt some climbs.
I have not heard a great reason why bolting one or two of the VS climbs is such a terrible thing.

I would consider myself to be very pro-bolts, that being said I'm damn proud of our trad ethics in this country and would expect them to be respected. If you know of a quarry that is suitable for bolting then go ahead. But don't go bolting existing routes and existing areas just because you find the trad ascent difficult. Put it this way, if you went to a climbing area in say, the former Czech republic and found that the only protection permissible was knotted ropes placed in cracks (while on lead) would you expect to be allowed to bolt the climbs because it suited you? Or would you respect the local ethic? We have local ethics here too.

While being a great reason is subjective to the individual. Here are some reasons I would consider good enough.

1. VS is not a difficult grade to achieve in fairness. Put down the chocolate hobnobs and get some training.
2. If one person can bolt a couple of routes then why not a couple more, to hell with it lets get everybody bolting everything.
3. In general people who find VS difficult wouldn't have enough experience to bolt a climb well. Or an anchor for that matter, I give the above as an example.
4. Dalkey has a trad ethic going back decades. Why should that be changed now?
5. They'll be chopped. Plain and simple. The scar left behind is permanent.
6. Hundreds of climbers enjoy the trad routes, why change that to suit yourself?

Bolt a climbed graded, for arguments sake, VS 4c is it still VS 4c? No its not. Have you then climbed a VS? No you haven't.

If you can't climb it then pull harder or go climb something else. That's what the rest of us do.

peter-pantslez

Evil Phil wrote: »

I would consider myself to be very pro-bolts, that being said I'm damn proud of our trad ethics in this country and would expect them to be respected. If you know of a quarry that is suitable for bolting then go ahead. But don't go bolting existing routes and existing areas just because you find the trad ascent difficult. Put it this way, if you went to a climbing area in say, the former Czech republic and found that the only protection permissible was knotted ropes placed in cracks (while on lead) would you expect to be allowed to bolt the climbs because it suited you? Or would you respect the local ethic? We have local ethics here too.

While being a great reason is subjective to the individual. Here are some reasons I would consider good enough.

1. VS is not a difficult grade to achieve in fairness. Put down the chocolate hobnobs and get some training.
2. If one person can bolt a couple of routes then why not a couple more, to hell with it lets get everybody bolting everything.
3. In general people who find VS difficult wouldn't have enough experience to bolt a climb well. Or an anchor for that matter, I give the above as an example.
4. Dalkey has a trad ethic going back decades. Why should that be changed now?
5. They'll be chopped. Plain and simple. The scar left behind is permanent.
6. Hundreds of climbers enjoy the trad routes, why change that to suit yourself?

Bolt a climbed graded, for arguments sake, VS 4c is it still VS 4c? No its not. Have you then climbed a VS? No you haven't.

If you can't climb it then pull harder or go climb something else. That's what the rest of us do.

well said phil

trad climbing has been ok in dalkey till now so why change it.....anyone can climb with bolts it not a great acheivment to climb a hard climb that is bolted cause you only have to clip in there is no hanging by your funger tips while trying to get the right piece of gear in the rock.......

cavedave

If you know of a quarry that is suitable for bolting then go ahead. But don't go bolting existing routes and existing areas just because you find the trad ascent difficult.

I would not go bolting an area I did not own without serious discussions with everyone involved. Not being able to lead a route would not be a good reason for me to bolt a climb.

Put it this way, if you went to a climbing area in say, the former Czech republic and found that the only protection permissible was knotted ropes placed in cracks (while on lead) would you expect to be allowed to bolt the climbs because it suited you? Or would you respect the local ethic? We have local ethics here too.
.

I would not bolt in an area where i did not know the people involved

1. VS is not a difficult grade to achieve in fairness. Put down the chocolate hobnobs and get some training.

No it is not. The aim would be to make peoples first climb possible. They could then give up the pies and get climbing properly.

2. If one person can bolt a couple of routes then why not a couple more, to hell with it lets get everybody bolting everything.

Agreed you need some control over who can place bolts

3. In general people who find VS difficult wouldn't have enough experience to bolt a climb well. Or an anchor for that matter, I give the above as an example.

That is my argument for someone who knows what they are doing bolting it. Could the sort of person who could not easily climb a VS be trusted to use bolts correctly? that is a reasonable question.

4. Dalkey has a trad ethic going back decades. Why should that be changed now?

Because I believe we should encourage people to climb. If people do not climb they will not attempt to stop much worse damage being done to quarries, cliffs and mountains then a few bolts.

5. They'll be chopped. Plain and simple. The scar left behind is permanent.

This is true and a good reason for not adding bolts at the moment. It is still worth discussing the issue. I think you should decide the ethics of an issue rather then just go with the current beliefs about it.

6. Hundreds of climbers enjoy the trad routes, why change that to suit yourself?

It is not to suit myself. I can and have trad climbed these routes. It is to suit beginers.

Bolt a climbed graded, for arguments sake, VS 4c is it still VS 4c? No its not. Have you then climbed a VS? No you haven't.

If you have never climbed hauling yourself up a ladder feels like an achievement. So even if the route is no longer a true VS you still might get an appreciation for climbing.

If you can't climb it then pull harder or go climb something else. That's what the rest of us do.

I think this is the nub of the argument. I believe climbers want to make entry into climbing as difficult as possible and any notion of trying to make climbing accessible to the great unwashed is reviled.

Evil Phil

'Because it makes climbing more accessible' is not a good enough argument to bolt Dalkey. Take them down to Ballykeefe in that case, take them to UCD, place the gear for them or take them top-roping. I've already stated that theres over 100 routes below VS in Dalkey, that's plenty for a beginner to make their first leads on. Successful first leads on less technically demanding routes will encourage people a lot more than failing to lead a bolted route at VS standard. I've seen both approaches so I know from experience. And don't say bolt the VDiffs and Severes, seriously bolts won't make them any safer.

I think this is the nub of the argument. I believe climbers want to make entry into climbing as difficult as possible and any notion of trying to make climbing accessible to the great unwashed is reviled.

Can you provide some evidence of this? Most climbers I know encourage beginners and help them. Go to Dalkey any summer's Thursday evening if you want to see this for yourself.

Not wanting to see a great trad area bolted is not some great conspiracy to keep people out of climbing. Its not even anti-bolts, its pro-trad. Trad is a brilliant way to climb. Leading a VDiff on trad is a far greater achievement than clipping bolts on a more technical route. Bolting to make climbing easier for beginners and more accessible, in this country, is just plain dangerous. Do you need me to explain why?

If you really want to get people out climbing then teach them independence. Teach them how to take care of themselves so they can climb without you. If this means teaching them how to set up top-ropes in Dalkey (and it does) then do that. In the IMC in 2005 (I think) we had 36 people on the beginners course, we taught them how to second a leader. 2 of them stuck with it to the following year. Since them the majority of our beginners have stuck with it because we started teaching them the independence that is the essence of mountain-craft. In their case that was teaching them how to top-rope safely. Clipping a few bolts so they can experience climbing isn't going to do that. If they've stuck with it long enough to be attempting their first leads then they're already interested enough. Bolts don't come into that equation.

I've heard all these arguments before, I even voiced them myself once upon a time. Climbing is difficult, plain and simple. But its really is just a matter of pacing yourself to learn your mountain-craft, learning to control your fear and then pulling harder. Really it is, there's no way around this. Recognising these things is healthy, especially when your starting out. If somebody is not prepared to do that from the start then perhaps climbing isn't for them.

cavedave

I've seen both approaches so I know from experience. And don't say bolt the VDiffs and Severes, seriously bolts won't make them any safer.

Ok if bolting does not make a climb any safer does it make it easier to do? Not that this is necessarily a good thing.

I think this is the nub of the argument. I believe climbers want to make entry into climbing as difficult as possible and any notion of trying to make climbing accessible to the great unwashed is reviled.
Can you provide some evidence of this?

peter-pantslez
trad climbing has been ok in dalkey till now so why change it.....anyone can climb with bolts it not a great acheivment to climb a hard climb that is bolted cause you only have to clip in there is no hanging by your funger tips while trying to get the right piece of gear in the rock.......

Most climbers I know encourage beginners and help them.

This is true. Most climbers I know do go out of their way to help beginners. As long as they are climbing in the trad way they this is especially the case.

Bolting to make climbing easier for beginners and more accessible, in this country, is just plain dangerous. Do you need me to explain why?

This is true in the sense that we could leave them at home on the sofa and they would at least in the short term be safer. It may also be true if adding a bolt would encourage complete muppets to tie sheets together and ab of a cliff or some such. I would think (and i could be wrong) if someone is a complete muppet they would be willing to solo a cliff or rig their blankets off a bush anyway.

If you really want to get people out climbing then teach them independence

If bolting an easy climb is neither safer nor more likely to get people into climbing then there is no point bolting it.

I've heard all these arguments before, I even voiced them myself once upon a time. Climbing is difficult, plain and simple. But its really is just a matter of pacing yourself to learn your mountain-craft, learning to control your fear and then pulling harder. Really it is, there's no way around this. Recognising these things is healthy, especially when your starting out. If somebody is not prepared to do that from the start then perhaps climbing isn't for them.

Climbing is difficult and if it was not it would not be much fun. Everyone of us has meet a great climber at a wall that when you mention going climbing outside looks at you with complete confusion. These sports climbers seem to regard outdoor climbing as too intimidating to start. Quite possibly you are right that all you can do is encourage them and offer to show them some stuff. You may also be right that putting in bolts would not get anymore sports climbers making the transition outdoors. But I do think asking how you can get more people outdoors is a reasonable question. I also think asking if we really act like we want to get more people outdoors is not being overly paranoid.

there is a slippery slope in bolting. You could turn a quarry into an amusement park with those chairlifts for old dears hauling people up the cliffs. But any slippery slope has two sides. You can overtrad also. You could only use traditional gear which would remove a lot of your rack. You could only use old style boots. You could even avoid the mountains altogether as dangerous demon haunted realms as they did before the victorian era (i am told). Trad climbing is great but I have only seen one person really doing it and that was filming for a documentary.

Evil Phil

This is true in the sense that we could leave them at home on the sofa and they would at least in the short term be safer.

No, bolting routes to make them accessible to beginners keeps them safer in the short term. In the long term, in this country, the majority of routes are trad. VS is really the first grade where routes become technically demanding. Its the first grade where you're very probably going to take a fall. Giving inexperience climbers a false belief that they can climb VS will get people injured or worse, plain and simple. Bolts do not keep beginners safe in a trad country like Ireland. Turns out you did need this explained to you.

Put it this way, teaching somebody trad teaches them far greater skills to keep themselves safe. Put them on a sports route they'll know what to do as the skills apply. Teach them how to clip bolts and try put them up a trad route. Think they'll be safe?

By the way sports climbers do climb outdoors. Sports climbing is an outdoor sport, on real rock, on real crags. And in climbing 'Traditional' does not refer to 'Ye goode olde days', it refers to free-climbing.

cavedave

Turns out you did need this explained to you.

Turns out i did. But as you said yourself it is not really VS if you climb it using bolts so why people would then falsely believe they had climbed at that level I do not know.

Put it this way, teaching somebody trad teaches them far greater skills to keep themselves safe. Put them on a sports route they'll know what to do as the skills apply. Teach them how to clip bolts and try put them up a trad route. Think they'll be safe?

Trad is more technically demanding in the sense of knowing how to place gear and such. And it is much easier to then move to sports climbing which is less technically demanding. But if you made a rule that any activity could only be learned at the most technical level not much would get done. Driving a formula one car is very difficult. And anyone who can drive one will not have many problems with driving a road car. But that does not mean everyone should learn to drive F1.

By the way sports climbers do climb outdoors. Sports climbing is an outdoor sport, on real rock, on real crags.

not in Dalkey..well I would class top roping as sports but

peter-pantslez yeah a few more of them iron rings would be great for tying in to.

but dont bolt the climbs stick with the traditonal climbing if you bolt them your make it in sport climbing

this post says my definition is wrong.

'Traditional' does not refer to 'Ye goode olde days', it refers to free-climbing.

All the advocates for trad climbing do seem to be harking back to back in the day though

. Dalkey has a trad ethic going back decades. Why should that be changed now?

Evil Phil

When I refer to technical climbing I'm refering to the technical level of the physical climbing itself. Not the technical skills involved involved in placing natural pro. This is generally what is ment by the term 'technical climbing'.

not in Dalkey..

What?! The reason nobody sports climbs in Dalkey is because there's no sports climbing in Dalkey. That's kinda obvious there Dave. I was pointing out to you that sports climbing does not refer to gym climbing. (And rushing off to google something does not now mean you're knowledgeable on the subject)

As for harking back to the day? Again 'Traditional' refers to free climbing, not to how things used to be done way back when (And I can't believe I have to point this out once, let alone twice). There is a long standing ethic of free-climbing in Dalkey. The sport of free-climbing, or trad as its known in this country, has evolved over the years. The gear has become safer, the grades and achievements have been pushed further and further. This has been driven by trad climbers. Saying that not climbing with hemp ropes tied about our waist while hammering bits of wet wood into cracks isn't trad climbing is laughable.

What's you're next step here? Quoting the Oxford English dictionary? Trad is climbing lingo. How are you going to convince a climbing community that bolts should be placed on Dalkey routes if you don't even speak the same lingo as them.

You seem to have missed a lot of points which leads me to believe you haven't been climbing for very long. And there's nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong at all and I don't regard that as a failing in anyway. But bolting an existing trad route won't improve your climbing and it won't make the sport more accessible to beginners. Every point I've made in this thread has been based on my experience. You're now argueing pedantics and little more.

There is no reason to bolt routes in Dalkey, accept it.

fergalr

I'm a newbie climber, so if being good at climbing is necessary to have an opinion, count me out :-) I'm also a bit wary entering a debate in which such strong feelings abound, but anyway:

The idea of trad climbing appeals to me more than sport, as it's more self supporting, somehow, in that you don't need someone else to have come along and bolted a route before you can do it, and that you can take the gear you place away with you, ideally not changing the rock and the surroundings too much from how you found it (leave no trace, and all that).

That said, I recently had a conversation with a friend (incidentally from a caving background) who was wondering why dalkey shouldn't be bolted.
He said that as dalkey is a quarry, and therefore to some extent a man made place, why not bolt it, on the basis that people that want to climb sport could then climb sport using the bolts, and people that want to climb trad could still climb trad using leader placed protection.
It's a pretty good question - bolting wouldn't on the face of it seem to stop people that want to lead trad from leading trad.
(It might increase the usage and contention of the quarry, but this wouldn't seem like a very altruistic reason to prevent bolting.)

I argued against this, by saying that the mere existence of the bolts being there meant that if things went pear shaped you could clip one at the last minute, and thus it would reduce the seriousness of the trad climbs. That's the biggest reason I could think of against bolting the routes. But I'm not sure it's a conclusive reason...


I assume this argument has come up before - what's the general thinking on it? Do sport climbing and trad climbing ever co-exist on the same routes? Can they?

cavedave

fergalr
I'm a newbie climber, so if being good at climbing is necessary to have an opinion, count me out :-) I'm also a bit wary entering a debate in which such strong feelings abound, but anyway:

It might look like myself and Phil are about to kick off but that is just how things look on forums. I bear him no ill will.

The idea of trad climbing appeals to me more than sport, as it's more self supporting, somehow, in that you don't need someone else to have come along and bolted a route before you can do it, and that you can take the gear you place away with you, ideally not changing the rock and the surroundings too much from how you found it (leave no trace, and all that).

That is a nice way of putting it. You do inevitably leave a trace whenever you do something. Minimising that trace seems only reasonable.

Again 'Traditional' refers to free climbing, not to how things used to be done way back when (And I can't believe I have to point this out once, let alone twice). There is a long standing ethic of free-climbing in Dalkey.

So you see no irony in saying trad does not mean traditional but we should keep it as the sole method because it is traditional?

Evil Phil

cavedave wrote: »

So you see no irony in saying trad does not mean traditional but we should keep it as the sole method because it is traditional?

You have not present a single good reason to bolt Dalkey. You haven't put one strong arguement on the table, all you've done is try to pick my arguements apart line by line and quote by quote. Pendantic and nothing else.

Really at this point your lack of knowledge about climbing is becoming quite frustrating. You simply do not know what you are talking about. If you really want to clip bolts drive down to Ballykeefe or further down to Kerry and clip bolts. Nobody is stopping you from doing that.

But you won't bolt Dalkey, if you do we'll chop the bolts. Dalkey is trad and its going to stay trad - you can't change that.

fergalr

Evil Phil wrote: »

But you won't bolt Dalkey, if you do we'll chop the bolts. Dalkey is trad and its going to stay trad - you can't change that.

Gunboat diplomacy?


Phil, any thoughts on whether/why not a climb couldn't be bolted to allow it to be lead in either sport or trad style?

Googling it, I see some venues in the UK appear to do this, and leave it to the climbers choice whether to use the bolts or not.

What are the reasons why not to do this approach regarding somewhere like dalkey? Do the bolts get in the way when climbing trad? Do they take from the severity of the climb, even if the climber is committed to not using them? Or is the concern to do with overcrowding, or erosion of existing trad ethics over time? Are there more fundamental reasons I'm missing?

Evil Phil

I'm not against bolting I just think that an established trad area like Dalkey should be left as trad. Do people not realise what a little trad gem Dalkey really is? Its easily accesible, it got nearly 300 routes of all grades (climbed on trad) and its been developed by Irish climbers. Are they not proud of that? They damn well should be.

Have you ever climbed something and thought 'Hell YEAH I climbed it!!!'. How would you feel if the first question everyone asked you was 'Okay but did you clip the bolts?'

If you want to clip bolts then do so, if you want to establish a sports crag then do so. But bolting Dalkey's routes is extremely selfish. Selfish and lazy: Why should somebody just overwrite the work gone into developing those routes? If you want bolted climbs then go and find an area to develop.

cavedave

Evil Phil
But you won't bolt Dalkey, if you do we'll chop the bolts. Dalkey is trad and its going to stay trad - you can't change that.

Are trad climbers claiming ownership of Dalkey? I thought it is owned by Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown county council.

Hopefully over the decades climbers have gained some form of squatters rights to the area but that is a fairly involved legal question.


*edit. If you are not claiming property rights to Dalkey quarry then the removal of safe items placed there by the landowner is illegal (afaik). If by "you" you mean me, then yes I would not myself bolt Dalkey, but I have already said that.

Evil Phil

I really am regretting getting into this discussion with you Dave. You have repeatedly shown that you do not have an understanding of the issues involved or even what the sport of climbing is about. The weak points you have managed to put forward didn't stand up to scrutiny.

So now you're bleating on about landownership and legal issues. Don't go throwing your toys out of the pram because you didn't get your own way. That's my last comment to you in this thread.

fergalr, one very good reason not to bolt Dalkey which has just occurred to me: People are bolting in the country. Not just in Ballykeefe and Kerry but elsewhere too. Those crags are being kept secret because they don't want there bolts chops, and they are not retro-bolting (which is bolting an established trad line). Things will change however because the climbing community are changing them and the new sports climbs won't remain secret for ever. But if some dimwit goes and retro-bolts Dalkey it would put the work of the pro-bolt camp back years. Personally I do think the sports can exist side by side but not necessarily on the same crag, certainly not on the same route.

Putting it simply, retro-bolting Dalkey is probably the worst thing you could do if you want to establish bolted routes in Ireland.

fergalr

fergalr, one very good reason not to bolt Dalkey which has just occurred to me: People are bolting in the country. Not just in Ballykeefe and Kerry but elsewhere too. Those crags are being kept secret because they don't want there bolts chops, and they are not retro-bolting (which is bolting an established trad line). Things will change however because the climbing community are changing them and the new sports climbs won't remain secret for ever.

Interesting - I hadn't heard this at all. The state where climbers are trying to keep whole climbing areas secret from each other makes it sound like things are in a pretty bad way.

I guess ideally there'd be reasoned discussion leading to policy created and respected by all parties... but seems like it's an issue that there are very strong feeling about, and that people are very hesitant to touch; fair enough.

But if some dimwit goes and retro-bolts Dalkey it would put the work of the pro-bolt camp back years. Personally I do think the sports can exist side by side but not necessarily on the same crag, certainly not on the same route.

Again, as I'm only a beginner, I'm just curious to learn about the issues.
I personally think it's really cool that Ireland has such great and plentiful trad venues, and I'd rather them stay unbolted, including dalkey, but I do see a lot of merit to the other side too.

Evil Phil

There's no reason why we can't have both as far as I'm concerned. I just think we should keep them in different areas.

piraka

But if one wants to keep Dalkey Quarry "trad" should chalk/top-roping (working the route)/pre-placement of gear/yo-yoing/"sticky" shoes/camming devices etc be banned also?