heads up cash!?

ditpoker

i dabbled in a bit of micro heads up cash last night...
pro and cons of heads up cash anyone?

1 table or 2? i'd imagine anymore early would kill your brain.

surely you play ALOT of raked hands which will be great on a skin like GJP for the cash race?!

TommyGunne

ditpoker wrote: »

i dabbled in a bit of micro heads up cash last night...
pro and cons of heads up cash anyone?

1 table or 2? i'd imagine anymore early would kill your brain.

surely you play ALOT of raked hands which will be great on a skin like GJP for the cash race?!

Biggest con is it is very heavily raked in micro. Also highly variance intensive.

Pros are that you should have a massive edge over any villain you choose to play. If you table select right, it is very easy to make 10+BB/100 and i've even ran at 30ptBB/100 over 5k hands one weekend at .25/.50.

Very swingy though.

Regarding the cash race, playing HU is not actually worse, as it I find it very very hard to play more than 2 tables of HU compared to 7 tabling 6max. The vast majority of hands in HU dont count for the cash race as well as hands that don't reach a flop are not raked, and so not counted. There is a much higher % of hands in HU that aren't raked than at 6max at micro.

TomPich

I'd rather play 4x 6man tables! Tend to stay away from Heads Up Cash

MuddyDog

HU cash, I find, when your playing your best is by far the most profitable game out there. You've got to be in the right mindset though or otherwise you'll spew off buy in after buy in with bottom pair. Most villains at lower stakes HU (.25/.5 and .5/1) are usually not regs at HU and are just playing it for a change of scene so are relatively inexperienced. WHIP IT!!

Mr.Plough

sick swongs, even at micro. I had a session last week at 100nl where I dropped 600 in less than 20minutes, all coolers (givin player info & how game was playing etc)

the players generally suck though

ditpoker

and what kinda roll you think suits heads up!?

Samba

I play alot of PLO hu. For Omaha I would rec. at least 30 buyins I would probably say the same for Holdem due to the variance you will encounter playin HU.

The worst downswing i've ever had was 20 buyins.

One very simple piece of advice i can give is too keep your cool no matter how bad things get, even if you do drop 6 buyins in 20 minutes, tilting in HU cash play can destroy a bankroll alot faster than in 6 max or full ring.

I would also set yourself a target for an approx. amount of hands to play per session, playing long exhaustive sessions in HU play is a bad idea, you need to be on top of your game at all times and the intensity levels of HU play will drain your energy alot faster.

I generally play 4 tables at once, you get better at multitabling as you go but the less tables you play the more intune and focused on those games you will be, never play outside of your comfort level in terms of the number of tables you play.

Be mentally prepared for the soul destroying beats/downswings and you should be fine.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

doke

I played it in a burst to improve my heads up play a few months ago.

Main pro is that not only are most of the players absolutely dreadful, but they come in easy to recognise categories of dreadful. So pretty quickly you know what you're up against and after that it's a relatively easy matter to extract their cash.

Main cons being it gets boring very fast, it pretty much requires your attention full time (I prefer to play online while working to relieve the boredom of working, which is easier to do with full ring cash or mtts. I really don't want to have to spend more time in front of a computer screen than I already do for work), and it's very swingy I imagine.

I'd stick to one table.

Captain Tom

the standard of HU on ipoker is absolutely awful. one thing id advise is sit yourself and wait for someone to sit with you rather than finding a table with soemone there already cause the guys waiting for players to sit are usually the regs.

MuddyDog

Captain Tom wrote: »

the standard of HU on ipoker is absolutely awful. one thing id advise is sit yourself and wait for someone to sit with you rather than finding a table with soemone there already cause the guys waiting for players to sit are usually the regs.

very true.
although, i find generally when you wait some muppet buys in for the minimum and that's uber ghey

HoLLLLLaments

HU is more profitable by far than 6 max/FR. Even at the lower stakes where the rake is high the standard of play would be so soft that it would still be beatable for a solid amount. Obviously the main drawback is you cant multi table HU as you would 6 max. If your 4 tabling 6 max and only 1 tabling HU i would stick with 6 max. If your 12 tabling 6 max but 4-6 tabling HU i would play HU.

Its definately not easier to multi table HU than ring games but one thing to note is that you are playing the same opponent for usually a longish period of time so your reads and such will be fresh as opposed to a pretty steady more numerous stream of changing opponents at ring games.(I think this only applys in low stakes hu as players will play a pretty basic sr8forward style) Although your reads will be fresh the dynamics of a HU match are constantly changing. You really have to focus on the flow of the match and try and hone in on your opponents thought process. This becomes critically important as you move up stakes. One thing i learned from Taylor Caby was that HU is a war of minds between you and your opponent and you are constantly trying to get the better of each other. All of this also means that there is not a optimal style(especially as you move up stakes) for playing HU as every opponent is different and the flow will constantly change and this makes it more difficult to multi table.



"For Omaha I would rec. at least 30 buyins"
This is not even close to being enough, Ive had 30bi swings in a day before playing hu PLO. I will be multitabling alot and playing a high variance style but i still dont think 30bis is enough even 1 tabling at lowstakes. If it is enough its barely enough and you would have to be very commited to stepping down. I would say 50bis is about the minimum i would reccomend to play HU plo with and even then you have to be willing to step down rather quicky. For Nlhe: Its still a pretty very high variance game so i would reccomend something similiar, maybe 40-50 would be ok.


One major factor in Hu can be tilt or you may not be on full blown tilt but you might not be on your A game. If you are tilting you should leave the game. Its that simple. I think you can stay at the table if your not on your A game but most defiantely not when you are on maximum tilt. When i say your not on your A game i mean you may be a little tired or such and your desicion making might not be as crisp as it would be if you were all juiced up on red bull but it will still be profitable for you to play. Once it becomes unprofitable for you to play its time to leave. Even before that point i think it would be smart to stand up. If you usually win at 10bb/100 but are only winning at 2bb/100 because your tired/angry/hungry/horny or w/e you should just quit.

Pride is another factor that gos hand in hand with tilt in HU play. Ive been guilty of this many times. I will be playing a player who i know is better than me but i wont quit. Its strange, I will 100% Know I am outmatched but i still wont standup. Poker is about making the most profit you can but because HU play is such a battle between two people being profitable will possibly cease to matter and the only thing you think about is beating your opponent. You want to Outplay him in every possible way. You want to show him bluffs and embarass him. It took me alot of hands and alot of money before i learned to stop doing this. If its not profitable for you to play someone you shouldnt be sitting down with them. If you feel your outmatched you should just stand up. Its about finding the balance between the war of minds and profit. I think that shows why game selection is such a important thing in hu play. Not just for the reasons you should not play some one better than you but you should try and play the person who you are most superior too and most profitable against. If you employ good game selection techniques it will really show in your bb/100.


Something i think alot of people misunderstand about HU play is position and where it becomes important in HU

Position usually isnt the determing factor on how people play flops
heres an example
I have K10o i raise button u have QJ and call flop is A62 u chk i bet u fold now if the cards were reversed the action would still go the same way, furthermore if u were to limp the button and ur opponent were to raise same cards in both situations and same flop the raiser would bet out on that flop and win the pot. This shows that position(and cards) isnt the determing factor in most flop play hu as most raised pots hu are taken down with a bet on the flop. Its the preflop betting action and the standard continuation bet.


Where i find being in Pos most useful is on the turn and river. When im value betting or i have a draw etc.

When playing draws being able to chk behind after having your flop bet called can be really valuable. Its also really valuable to be able to check weak made hands(2nd pair no kicker) behind.

I also find when im value betting postion is really key.

say i raise 77 on btn villian 3bets and I call, flop comes 7AJ, villian leads an i raise or call(not too important for this example.)Now on the turn and river being in postion will allow you to get more money in the pot and extract maximum value. If villian bets again on turn this info will help you decide whats the optimal way to get the most money and most value out of the hand and same if he chks(im almost never chking behind if he chkd turn to me though but its just an example). You have the extra info in a raised pot with most likey the best hand. This is a huge advantage

Say for instance you were in bb and called vilians raise with 77 and same flop and u chk and he chks behind, thats already a oppurtunity gone to get more money and extract value from your hand. And on turn/river it will also be harder to get as much value from hands as you do in pos.

Also if im double or triple barelling position is a pretty big factor on turn on river. when i fire the first bullet on flop position is not such a huge factor because its usually just the standard line, raise pre and bet flop, but when double/triple barelling position can be cruical.



Timing tells are something that i really focus on HU. These are really player dependant so the best thing to do is try and figure out how long that specific opponent is taking on his desicions and match it up with the hands that go to showdown. To mask your own timing tells try to take the same amount of time on each desicion. I would say never act immediately(well obv dont slowroll) or never time right down(obv if you are thinking this is fine), the reason being that these tells might signal something to your opponent you dont want him to know. Even if hes wrong on what it means it might make him make a call or fold which you dont want. If you can manipulate your opponent by throwing off fake timing tells than you should do it but most opponents who are good enough to spot differnt timing tells will be hard to fool. I usually aim for 7 seconds on all my desicions. It really just helps to mask your thought process.


maybe we can get some good discussion going about hu especially about position in hu play?

TommyGunne

ditpoker wrote: »

and what kinda roll you think suits heads up!?

I think about 40 bi would be fair enough. You can go on massive swings very easily. From .50/1 6max I think 30 bi is best so 40 bi for HU up to .25/.50 and 50 bi for .50/1 and on is what I used.

ditpoker

TommyGunne wrote: »

I think about 40 bi would be fair enough. You can go on massive swings very easily. From .50/1 6max I think 30 bi is best so 40 bi for HU up to .25/.50 and 50 bi for .50/1 and on is what I used.

so you'd need $5,000 to play .50/1??

ditpoker

HoLLLLLaments wrote: »

...

great post so far, only half way through but gotta pretend to work for a bit.

luckylucky

ditpoker wrote: »

so you'd need $5,000 to play .50/1??

If you were kicking a$$ in it, no you wouldn't. if your win rate was more modest then yeah that'd be ballpark right as the variance is higher than normal cash games.

Personally I think trying to do any sort of multi-tabling in heads up is very difficult and very stressful, therefore I'd give it a miss. I would agree though that per table especially with good game selection, your win rate can be far higher.

HoLLLLLaments

I think your looking at it the wrong way when you talk about multi tabling HU being stressful. If you have played 100k hands at HU one tabling then add another table your not going to freak out and time out every hand. It might take a little adjustment but you should and will be able to adjust and your thought process and desicion making will naturally become faster. Its not about being stressed or such. Its about bb/100 and $/ph. If your making 10bb/100 1 tabling but after a little adjusting time on two tables are sustaining 8bb/100 per table obv its correct to play 2 tables.

Slash/ED

I did it for a while at 20nl and 50nl, at first it was insanely profitable, but the rake ultimately kills you.

TommyGunne

ditpoker wrote: »

so you'd need $5,000 to play .50/1??

Well that's really conservative, and so am I, but it's ridiculous how swingy HU is. I've had a 22bi upswing and a couple of 15 buyin downswings in very short periods of time, and I haven't played a ton of hands.

Obviously as I've posted before, bankroll is very personal. It depends on your winrate, our variance, and the stakes you are playing at, so everyone should have different bankroll requirements.

For me, I feel comfortable with 30bi for .50/1 so obviously I'd want more for HU. Those figures were personal ones, and you could use whatever ones you like.

luckylucky

HoLLLLLaments wrote: »

I think your looking at it the wrong way when you talk about multi tabling HU being stressful. If you have played 100k hands at HU one tabling then add another table your not going to freak out and time out every hand. It might take a little adjustment but you should and will be able to adjust and your thought process and desicion making will naturally become faster. Its not about being stressed or such. Its about bb/100 and $/ph. If your making 10bb/100 1 tabling but after a little adjusting time on two tables are sustaining 8bb/100 per table obv its correct to play 2 tables.

Indeed it is all about your profitability.... I still think heads up is not the way to go for most people who multitable at least.

I've played up to 10 6 man tables at a time on occasion, tbh if given the choice of playing 10 of them or 3 heads up games, I would pick the 10 6 man as the easier option.
Decisions are coming at you so hard and fast in heads up you hardly have a chance to breathe in 1 game let alone playing 3 or more. You can't afford to play tight in a heads up game like you can do in a 6 man.

So if your win rate is 4bb/100 when 6 tabling 6 seaters.

As opposed to 8bb/100 when 3 tabling heads up.

Your overall E(profit) would be the same.

I would maintain the former is easier to do though.

Anyway it's all theory and conjecture I suppose. I know there's a fair few on here including myself who have multi-tabled 6 and more 6 seaters. Is there anyone here who has regularly done 3 or more heads up games?

Captain Tom

HoLLLLLaments wrote: »

maybe we can get some good discussion going about hu especially about position in hu play?

nothing revolutionary but i think a lot of players opt for pot control in position far too often. generally HU players are ridic stationy and will call 1 or 2 barrells very light yet a lot of guys get really passive w/ tpnk/2nd pair etc which is basically leaving money on the table. this is especially bad vs aggressive players who will cr a ton of flops. most of the time bet/calling with weakish made hands will be far more profitable than playing passively vs these kinda players. plus when you only bet with tp+/air and check back marginal hands it makes you very predictable and easy to play against.

bleh my thoughts always get really disjointed when i write more than like 3 lines.

HoLLLLLaments

"nothing revolutionary but i think a lot of players opt for pot control in position far too often. generally HU players are ridic stationy and will call 1 or 2 barrells very light yet a lot of guys get really passive w/ tpnk/2nd pair etc which is basically leaving money on the table. this is especially bad vs aggressive players who will cr a ton of flops."

if they are check raising a ton of flops dont you think it might be good to check back 2nd pair and reevaluate on turn because they are likely to put you in a difficult spot with 2nd pair. your hand reading and decision making will have to be very good if you dont check some flops that nail his range. I do think that some players lose alot of value by not betting flops both by not extracting value from weaker hands and not pickng up the pot on the flop. I remember being a big culprit of this when i played hu sngs.


"most of the time bet/calling with weakish made hands will be far more profitable than playing passively vs these kinda players. plus when you only bet with tp+/air and check back marginal hands it makes you very predictable and easy to play against."

I dont think theres a set method of playing weakish made hands vs any type of opponents but you definately have to mix up your range

hotspur

HU is really really affected by how confidant you feel in your game. I use to play it a lot a couple of years ago. My strategy was to look through non-HU tables across various stakes to find ones with only one person sitting and then take them on.

I also had a strategy for a while of sitting down at $1/2 tables, waiting for someone to coach another player and then provoke a fight with that person, reasoning that they probably had a weak ego, and then when sufficiently riled up challenge them to a $1k HU sit n go to "sort it out".

I stopped playing HU because nothing in poker feels as bad as a tilting session HU. The buy ins you can lose versus a lucky moron who tilts you is ridiculous. For me it became -EV because I bring my A game about once every 6 months to a poker table. It takes a lot of effort and discipline.

Actually pretty much everything HoLLLLLaments said is true. Pride is a big issue too. And the game is unplayable unless you are playing 1/2 at the very least, and even then I reckon it's marginal due to the rake.

HoLLLLLaments

luckylucky wrote: »

Anyway it's all theory and conjecture I suppose. I know there's a fair few on here including myself who have multi-tabled 6 and more 6 seaters. Is there anyone here who has regularly done 3 or more heads up games?

I 12 tabled 6$ hu sngs as a bet before. :cool:

Captain Tom

HoLLLLLaments wrote: »

if they are check raising a ton of flops dont you think it might be good to check back 2nd pair and reevaluate on turn because they are likely to put you in a difficult spot with 2nd pair. your hand reading and decision making will have to be very good if you dont check some flops that nail his range.

sorry just to be clear i meant cr bluff a ton of flops, especially dry ones.

Requiem4adream

HoLLLLLaments wrote: »

I 12 tabled 6$ hu sngs as a bet before. :cool:

heh

I 27 tabled $6, $16 and $27 sngs last year making $300 profit over the 27 games. I also almost needed hospital treatment afterwards!!! The mind bogglingly hardest part is registering in the games without timing out.

jbravado

Last I heard DelanC off boards is pretty proficient in these maybe hes changed game though.

Rb

$50nl HU is the most mind-numbing game I've ever had the misfortune of playing.

The people you play, sure enough, are fcking awful but it can be a tilting experience to say the least.