Was this a safety hazard

paddyblue

So here's my story,

I'm flying from Krakow to Dublin (January 2008) on board an Irish Airline, morning flight. I'm sitting in a window seat in the emergency exit row over the wing. Soon after takeoff we enter thick cloud so i raise the window cover about half way. We are in cloud for quite a long time (half hour approx) so when we do emerge into morning sunlight i try to lower the window shutter to get the full view - but the shutter won't budge. I'm a little surprised but ignore this and make do with half a window to look through. However the window starts to fog up and i can't see very much. I'm a little concerened at this stage because it's the first time iv'e experienced this on any flight and i normally sit by the window.

After approx 3 hours (we are begining our descent to Dublin) i notice there is a small drip of water coming down from the top of the window. Now i'm quite alarmed and paranoia quickly creeps in. My seatbeld is fastened amid vivid images of the window shattering and every loose object in the plane getting forcefully sucked twoards the hungry void. At this stage i decide to confide in my partner but she laughs off my suspicions as 'paranoia'.

In the last half hour when the plane descends and lands (much to my relief) the 'drip' from the window has increased in intensity & volume to the extent that the right sleeve of my jumper is quite wet from the splashing of the intruding liquid. As i'm leaving the plane i inform the smiling air stewardess that there is a leak in the window at my seat. Her fascial experssion didn't contort in horror, as i half expected, but remained set in that plastic smile as she says 'thank you, we'll look into that'.

I'm still unconvinced that this episode was perfectly normal and i think there may have been some safety hazard here that, thankfully, did not materialise.

Has anyone experienced this before? Can anyone confirm my suspicions or am i making an issue out of nothing?

cp251

You are kind of making an issue out of nothing. Fogging on the window is condensation. Just like in your car. There was no leak. If there was you would have heard hissing or something obvious. What caused it? I can't say but I would guess.

Was it raining in Krakow when you boarded? Lots of moisture in the air from damp clothes or whatever might have caused it. Was it was snowing? Krakow in January! Warm moist air inside, cold outside = condensation.

Incidentally, don't worry about that old chestnut of being sucked out like toothpaste from a tube if the window went. It doesn't happen. It would be mighty uncomfortable but if you just close the window shade.............Oh yes. Well never mind:eek:

Darwin

More than likely it was due to poor ventilation in the cabin. I've often had droplets of water spalsh on me from the air conditioning unit while in flight

dogmatix

I think thats an urban myth - being sucked out of a small window like Mr Goldfinger - if your bigger then the window then you should not be able to fit out. But whether it was a non-issue or not, I would have been a bit worried if I had noticed it myself. I think the op was right to mention it to the cabin crew member.

Jakey

Sounds like condensation as said above,
A captin was sucked out the windscreen of a BAC 1-11 in 1990, obviously different to the smaller smaller windows he was grabbed by a steward and survived, amazing story

Oh, What a Flight! - the Story of BA 5390

Flight BA 5390 left Birmingham International Airport on Sunday, 10 June, 1990 en route to Malaga, Spain. The weather was fine and the crew and passengers were expecting the three-hour flight to be routine. However, an unfortunate event caused the flight not to reach its destination. Some serious skill and bravery gave cause for a celebration of one of the greatest recoveries in aviation history. Read on to be amazed by the turn of events onboard the BAC 1-11.

Prepare for Take-off

Everything was looking good when the 43-tonne aircraft left Birmingham International Airport one hour late at 7.20am for the short flight to Malaga. On board were two flight crew, four cabin crew and 81 passengers. Captain Tim Lancaster had flown with this crew on many occasions and was familiar with their routine; it was, however, his co-pilot's first outing with this group.

Some 13 minutes into the flight the aircraft was climbing through an altitude of 17,300 feet and was at that time over Didcot in Oxfordshire. The cabin crew were busy preparing the meals for the flight crew and passengers. Captain Lancaster removed his shoulder harness and his lap strap to prepare for his breakfast, and, having engaged the autopilot, was about to leave Alistair Atcheson at the helm. Suddenly, the cabin pressure dropped rapidly as the airplane underwent what is known as explosive decompression.

How bad can it be?

In the aircraft, the passengers heard a loud bang and the fuselage quickly filled with a white mist of condensation. Oxygen masks dropped from the ceiling and loose papers and debris were drawn through the aircraft.

On the flight deck however, the scene was even more shocking. The door had been sucked from its hinges and now lay across the radio and navigation console. The cause of the decompression was clearly visible - the left windscreen had blown out, allowing the higher pressure air inside the plane to blow out through the cockpit. Since Tim Lancaster had released both his seatbelts he was partially sucked out of the now non-existent window and was pinned back against the roof of the cockpit. His shirt had been ripped off his back and his legs had become trapped in around the control column, forcing it forward. This action, while securing him in place, had released the autopilot and the plane began to dive and roll.

The first member of the cabin crew to happen upon this devastating scene was Nigel Ogden who had been preparing the Captain's breakfast in the galley which was just on the other side of the cockpit door. He acted quickly and grabbed the Captain around the waist in an attempt to pull him back into the cabin. With a 400mph wind blowing through the plane the situation was dire to say the least, but Ogden persisted with his struggle to save the Captain, and the aircraft, by attempting to drag him back inside and release his feet from the control column.

Meanwhile, Alistair Atcheson had only released his shoulder harness, so was still in his seat attempting to re-engage it. As soon as he was secure he began the fight with his control column to pull the aircraft out of the uncontrolled dive. He was also trying to communicate with a control tower to transmit a Mayday message, all this while a mini-tornado was blowing about the cockpit. Air Traffic Control could hear the call for help, but were unable to ascertain what the problem was.

The dive continued unabated while the aircraft plunged through some of the busiest air space in Europe risking collision with any number of other flights.

Following a considerable struggle with the controls of the aircraft, and working in extreme conditions, Alistair Atcheson regained control. He managed to level the plane at 11,000 feet and reduce the speed to 180mph. At that height and speed there was no need for the oxygen masks as the air was breathable. This enabled him to re-instate the auto-pilot and establish a two-way communication with the control tower.

The Chief Steward, John Heward, removed the flight deck door and stored it in the nearest toilet, then strapped himself into the left observation seat where he held onto the Captain's feet to assist Nigel Ogden who was still clinging on.

The reduction of speed caused the Captain's rigid body to slide to the side of the aircraft where he could be seen by the remaining crew. All those on the flight deck could see that Captain Lancaster's eyes were open, but there was no sign of life. The temperature outside the plane was -17 degrees centigrade at least, and the wind sheer would have decreased this temperature even further. Despite their best efforts Ogden and Heward could not fight the elements to bring Captain Lancaster back into the cockpit. The three men on the flight deck exchanged a glance, and the co-pilot shook his head to confirm the negative, they should not let the Captain go1. In that instant they had decided that no matter what they would continue to cling to Tim Lancaster until they landed. While they had all assumed he was dead, the decision to try to hold on to him was more than about keeping his body for his family. There was a real danger, if they had let him go, that the wing or engine would be damaged, and his body was partially blocking the gaping hole where the left windscreen should have been.

Are We There Yet?

Alistair Atcheson had requested to land at Gatwick since he was familiar with it, but due to the congested airspace around both Gatwick and Heathrow, he was directed to land at Southampton Airport. Southampton was closer, but all the maps and charts had been lost in the blow-out, and having never landed there before, the co-pilot was obviously anxious about the prospect of making good a landing.

Nigel Ogden was by this time beginning to suffer from the effects of his exposure to the biting winds, but couldn't let go or change position for fear of losing the body of Captain Lancaster. Sue Prince and Simon Rodgers, the other cabin crew, had been attending to the passengers and preparing them for what could be a bumpy landing. Simon, on completing his duties in the cabin, went forward to the flight deck and changed places with Nigel who was very much weakened and distressed by his ordeal. During the exchange, Captain Lancaster slipped a further six to eight inches out of the plane.

Meanwhile, co-pilot Atcheson was still concerned with the prospect of a landing at Southampton. His major worries were that the runway was, at 1,800 metres, shorter than the recommended 2,200 metres for this aircraft, and the wings were still heavy with fuel, given that only 2,180kg of a 9,980kg initial load had been consumed on the aborted flight. With little option he began their descent.

At Southampton Airport, emergency services were scrambled for the arrival of Number One Traffic: BA flight 5390 with 87 souls on board2.Alistair Atcheson called upon all of his 7,500 hours of flying experience as he began the descent for landing. Surprisingly when the flight reached 300 feet, Captain Lancaster's legs began to kick giving some hope that he may survive the ordeal if the landing was successful.

The flight landed safely at 07.55am, and all passengers disembarked shocked but unhurt. The firemen and ambulance crew released Captain Lancaster through the cockpit where he briefly regained consciousness before being taken to hospital.

With the heroic actions of the crew, and the extraordinary flying skills of the co-pilot, the flight recorded only one serious injury - that of Captain Lancaster who suffered a broken right arm and wrist, a broken left thumb, bruising, frostbite and shock. The only other recorded injuries were those of Nigel Ogden who suffered from frostbite, bruising and shock.

Accidents Don't Just Happen

The subsequent inquiry revealed that the windscreen had been replaced just 24 hours before the flight, and a number of errors in the procedure resulted in the wrong size bolts being used to fit the new window. Although the difference in size was minimal, some 200th of an inch, it was enough to cause the windscreen to blow out when the pressure differential became too great between the cabin and outside atmosphere. Obviously procedures are now in place to ensure such a thing can never happen again.

Where Are They Now?

Captain Lancaster survived relatively unscathed and he returned to work with British Airways some five months later, where he worked until his retirement. Following his retirement, he returned to captain flights for another airline.
Alistair Atcheson, who through his skill and presence of mind saved the flight, continued his career with British Airways. Modest to the end, he insisted he was just doing his job as he was trained to.
Nigel Ogden, who was instrumental in saving the captain, never returned to flying after this ordeal and who among us could blame him?
John Heward, the Chief Steward - who clung to the captain's feet throughout much of the flight - did return to flying, but has restricted himself to long-haul flights. Aircraft used in long-haul journeys bear no resemblance to the aircraft he spent the longest 22 minutes of his life on.
Susan Prince and Simon Rodgers also felt unable to return to their careers as cabin crew.
The entire crew were honoured for their actions in saving BA flight 5390 but the Gold Medal for Airmanship was awarded to Alistair Atcheson and there is no doubt it was richly deserved.
Finally, one of the most moving tributes to the crew was made when they returned to Birmingham International Airport - the entire concourse fell silent as they walked through, until it erupted with spontaneous applause to acknowledge the greatest respect for the dream team.


Taken from

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A20460782

Foggy43

Why do you use the term 'sucked' when in actual fact you or anything not tied down are blown out.

The pressure inside is higher than out side so the cabin air rushes out trying to equalize thus blowing anything not fixed out.

Come to think of it when an aircraft is sitting on the ground in rain water does get in. The Door and Window seals are designed to keep the cabin presurised. In heavy rain on the 747-400 rain pours in the upper deck doors and on to the seats on the deck below. When airboune the seals are water tight.

paddyblue

Foggy 43 - you are correct - but i use the term 'sucked' because it creates a more dramatic & viusal image of what would/may happen in the event of a 'blow out'.

Jakey - great story and one i've seen reinacted before on the 'Air Crash Investigation' programme shown most weeknignts on National Geographic channel. It's a great programme and along with 'seconds from disaster' it's my fav tv viewing at the moment. Air crashes always make big news when they happen but by the time the investigations are complete (it usually takes many months) the media are no longer interested so the general public don't get the lowdown on why/how the crash actually happened. These programmes give a detailed account of events leading up to the incident, revealing at exactly what point the critical mistake was made & how this eventually led to the plane crashing. What alarms me is the ammount of crashes that are due to poor maintenance/repair.

In response to some of the comments about my flight from Krakow -
No it was not raining in either Krakow or Dublin.
Also, the drops of water were definetly coming from the top of the window - most of this was dripping down the window with a few drops splashing off the the side panel.
I forgot to mention that the shutter moved easily once we landed in Dublin - so i'm certain it was 'frozen' in place while we were crusing.

I'm realise i'm probably making an issue out of nothing but after watching so many air crash investigation programmes who can blame me?

cp251

I'll ask my bruv the engineer. I'll bet he knows exactly what it is.

Smokey Bear

It happens all the time on aircraft.All the moisture that you breathe out collects in the aircraft insulation.As aircraft descends or ascends you can get the accumulated water dripping down on paxs.Its is said in the life time of a med>lrg sized jet can put on up to 800kgs in weight from just water in the insulation.
You were sitting at an emergency exit row,the insulation around the doors is not the same as the rest of aircraft the seals will keep it air tight but as it can be apx -50 outside the cold is going to pentrate around door frame causing ice to form ,this then melts as you descend giving you a free shower.Try sitting where crew sit @the doors have seen results of tests carried out and it can be from -1 > 4 c @ doors on longhaul flight this is where crew sit with jumper jacket blanket and what ever else you can find to keep them warm!!

Smokey Bear

Mythago

paddyblue wrote: »

Foggy 43 - you are correct - but i use the term 'sucked' because it creates a more dramatic & viusal image of what would/may happen in the event of a 'blow out'.

It is actually possibly for a full grown adult to fit through a passenger window. Or at least on the ground during maintenance I can squeeze through one (did it to prove a point).

Jakey - great story and one i've seen reinacted before on the 'Air Crash Investigation' programme shown most weeknignts on National Geographic channel. It's a great programme and along with 'seconds from disaster' it's my fav tv viewing at the moment. Air crashes always make big news when they happen but by the time the investigations are complete (it usually takes many months) the media are no longer interested so the general public don't get the lowdown on why/how the crash actually happened. These programmes give a detailed account of events leading up to the incident, revealing at exactly what point the critical mistake was made & how this eventually led to the plane crashing.

Maybe you should cut back a little on nat geo

In response to some of the comments about my flight from Krakow -
No it was not raining in either Krakow or Dublin.
Also, the drops of water were definetly coming from the top of the window - most of this was dripping down the window with a few drops splashing off the the side panel.
I forgot to mention that the shutter moved easily once we landed in Dublin - so i'm certain it was 'frozen' in place while we were crusing.
I'm realise i'm probably making an issue out of nothing but after watching so many air crash investigation programmes who can blame me?

Some aircraft are notorious for soaking up dampness(condensation) into the insulation blankets between the aircraft skin & the trim panel that holds your blind i.e MD-80. Moisture build up is not a hazard, it's not common for it to appear on the cabin side of the trim panel but it's not dangerous. However for your window blind to freeze in place due to water is highly unlikely, as that would mean you were sitting in less than 4 degrees C yourself! That could have been down to almost anything really, the aircraft flexing in flight & making it stick or something related to pressuriztion or even just a piece of dirt.

What alarms me is the ammount of crashes that are due to poor maintenance/repair.

It actually quite a low amount in relation to the amount of crashes & causes.