Practical Pistol - Give it a name

Bananaman

A thread of discussion has been developing under the Upcoming Competitions thread. I would like to comment but said I would start a new thread.
I have asked the Mods to migrate the previous messages out of the Upcoming Competitions thread.

I have to agree with many of the comments in here including GunShys latest comments.

Practical Pistol shooting is one of the fastest growing shooting sports on the Island at the moment. I do not have any statistics from the CSO to back that up but from experience it is going from strength to strength over the last two years (as long as I have known there was such a thing)
This year Ireland got most improved region in IPSC so we must be doing something right.

In order for that to happen there have been a number of phases, as with any other developing interest.

I am pretty sure, that once upon a time, in a county far far away there were some guys with holsters shooting IPSC targets up against a backstop. Not a timer, an RO, a rulebook, a chronograph, a kinetic hammer, a scales, etc in sight.
Let's call that "pre-practical style" shooting. Before my time.

When I came into it - which is when it started in Hilltop - we were doing Practical Pistol proper. Albeit being trained by an instructor recognised abroad rather than in Ireland.

Did I care - absolutely not.

At the end of the day it wasn't about who, where, when, why.

I wanted to shoot practical pistol, in Hilltop, and I was not allowed to do it until I got a competition license. At the time that was how you got one.

I was invited to go on the queue and after a while I got my go and passed the course. Yippee.
I then went out and shot a load of no shoots and came last in my first competition. I was like the cock of the walk. Brilliant day.

What does this tell us. The course was great - I knew what I was doing, I was completely safe, I didn't get DQ'd, I was shaking like a leaf with the nerves and I was a crap shot.

I knew the guys who were ROs on that day - I had seen them do it before - I was 100% happy to go onto that range and compete.

I have since gone on to attend shoots all over the island and have gone abroad. All perfectly safe and never been DQ's - touch wood it will stay that way. I did not experience a "step up" in terms of the quality of the range, range officers, stages, safety standards, etc. EVerywhere I have gone the standards were the same as they were that first day.

This is the same for many of the people I shoot with regularly - the only real difference is how many no shoots they got in their first competition. I'd say for anyone who is in it a couple of years this is also true. It all had to start somewhere.

These days things have changed. IPSA have a very aggresive training schedule and are adding to the number of practical pistol shooters at an unprecedented rate. Again All good.

In the interim, however, there was a stage where there was neither training available from abroad nor sufficient availability for training in IPSA (this is my view of what the situation was and is sufficient for the point).

During that interim phase clubs ran their own courses to take up the slack. What those courses did was allow people, in that club, to try practical pistol, in that club.

As GunShy said - it did not impart any other power to you, you were still not recognised by IPSA and could not attend officially sanctioned matches in Ireland.

Again - did these guys care? - not a hoot.

Taking Hilltop in particular, they had many shoots and plenty of people came for a look and were itching to have a go. (I know when I first went for a look the lack of training meant I ended up working the BBQ) They could go on the queue to get the club training allowing them to try out the sport or they could go on the queue to get IPSA certification to try out the sport.
What was the difference? Well, in order to get the IPSA certification you needed to commit to the sport first. You needed to purchase all of the equipment etc but with the club course you could use club equipment and if you did not get the bug it saved you 100's of euros. Now, as it turned out, the vast majority got the bug and then went shopping but for most people, given the choice the club route was preferable. It was never a short cut, it was just the easier route so given the choice many people went with the club course. It should be noted that it was not an attendance thing - plenty of people did not succeed on the course.

However, It was very successful and has meant that there are now a large number of trained shooters in Hilltop.

Now, as it turns out, the vast majority of these guys want to go to shoots abroad so they are now applying to IPSA, in their droves.

The second part of that equation is the range officers. Unfortunately Ireland is a bit behind in this respect. I am not privy to the details but there is an aggresive training programme underway with IPSA to produce internationally recognised range officers. It is a slow process.
What does this mean - well it means that more than likely the range officer supervising you in a practical shoot in Ireland is not internationally recognised. Then again, it's always been like that and we never felt unsafe.

So what makes an RO - the same as what has always made an RO - Experience. Experience of what - being taught by people with more experience, having attended shoots, having seen mistakes people have made, being able to see the likely mistakes people could make, reading up on global village about decisions made at other shoots, etc.

So when it comes to identifying what people are doing - give it a name (wasn't that a line from "Things to do in Denver when you're dead?")

I think it is fair to say that everyone involved would like what they are doing to be recognised as Practical Pistol.

We are not quite there yet.

I believe that on the issue of safety there is absolutely no divergence from the path.
If you are attending a "club practical shoot" in Hilltop or attending an IPSA sanctioned practical shoot, or attending the World shoot in Bali - absolutely everyone having anything to do with that shoot has one focus - yours and everyone elses safety - when they design and build the stages, when they appoint the range officers, when they set up the first aid points, when they set up the BBQ, when they decide which squads get fed in what order, when they think of the route to the toilets. Every decision. No exceptions.

The IPSC Safety rules have been developed over time - they have changed based on the experience of the thousands of people who have attended shoots over the years. They are followed to the letter.

I suppose you could ask then why are all the shoots not sanctioned. Short answer is I don't know.

There are issues around un-sanctioned shooters, un-sanctioned ROs, Regional memberships, etc. All a bit above my pay grade.
Personally I think what happens in Hilltop, as did yesterday, could be sanctioned as a Level I match but then I have no say in any of this.

All of these things are works in progress but, by their very nature, are slow processes. I hope that some accomadation will be achieved in the interim.

If you still have questions - go and see a shoot. Call IPSA, Hilltop, Kells, anyone else holding shoots and ask if you can go as a competitior or a spectator. The asking is not so they can say no - it is to ensure you are taken into account when all those safety descsion are being made. And remember, you might want a burger too.

B'Man

cooperjeff9

Gun Shy wrote: »

Just a few points which may help to clarify a few matters and may be worth taking note of, as there could be possible confusion over the use of the term "Practical Shooting" or indeed the phrases "Practical Pistol" "Practical Rifle" and "Practical Shotgun"

The phrase "Practical Shooting" is internationally associated with the style of shooting competitions as Governed by IPSC rules. Therefore it is quite understandable that people could be confused over the legitimicity of competitions purporting to be a "Practical Pistol Competition" All such competitions even those implying to be a good carbon copy (my wording) with only a few IPSC elements missing could only at best be described as "Practical Style Shooting" or "Practical Type Shooting"

However this terminology does little to clarify the situation to the shooter, even the phrase" "club" practical shoot "muddies the waters even more so, for the shooter who is perhaps interested in "Practical Shooting" and I would suggest that some other wording be used thus clearing the murky waters and allowing potential compeditors in whatever target sport takes their fancy to be able to make an informed decision.

In essence I guess what I'm trying to get across (and this is my own opinion) is that an Irish Coffee without the whisky is just coffee similary Practical Shooting without IPSC is just shooting, So is it not time to christen the baby and give it a proper name so it can easily be identified from Practical Shooting, and therefore creating its oun unique identity and let compeditors know where they stand and eliminate all the confusion.

MortgageMan Wrote

IPSC & IPSA organise a sanctioned training course to obtain a competition license. Clubs may organise their own training for members, this training may be similar to the IPSA training but just not called IPSA.

Again a statement which could unintionally provide a lot of confusion, The First line is correct however the second line leaves a lot to be desired and if you are of the opinion as I am (and I am not saying that this was mortgage mans intention, just that it was poorly worded) that a club which just organises its own training for its members, that these membes will then Qualify for an IPSA Competition Licence and thus recognised internationally by all 70 plus Regions. This is not so Hovever that was what it was leading me to believe (others may have different opinions but this was mine)

However the following senarios would provide you with an IPSA Internationally Recognised Competition Licence (provided you passed that is)

Your club organised for IPSA to run its IPSC Competition Course and it was run by its (IPSA's Instructors) Then YES you would

OR another one (and I stand to be corrected on the following two)

Your Club organised for (lets just say) a Brazilian IPSC Instructor to come to deliver a competition course at your Club then the following procedure will apply

They (that being the instructor) would have to have the prior approval of the Brazilian RD to conduct the course, this would then be submitted along with the proposed course content ie lesson plans, credintals round count etc. to IPSA who will then adjudicate on the equivelancy of the course compared to the Irish Standard. If this is approved then the course may go ahead and you depending on the conditions set by IPSA you may recieve a Brazilian Competition Licence and you can submit this for an Irish Licence based on its equivelancy.

Alternatively IPSA may decide to grant an Irish Competition Licence if the Instructor has been approved to deliver the IPSA Competition Licence Course.

The Third Option

Go to Brazil and do the Brazilian Licence course, come home and present your licence and details of the course etc. to the IPSA (it should be noted that the equivelancy of the course and its proof rests with the individual making the claim and not IPSA. If approved you may be issued a Irish Licence issued on equivelancy. Prior approval STRONGLY RECOMENDED

I would strongly advise that partisipants contact IPSA directly to clarify all issues relating to the above thus avoiding wasted time, effort and money.

I hope this clarifys some points and remember IPSA would like to assist any club interested in "PRACTICAL SHOOTING"

From the IPSC website

Top Three Regions

First Brazil
Second Germany
Third Philippines



Most Improved Region

Ireland

JD



Gun Shy

Just to clarify a few points which JD has said, and hopefully prevent shooters being confused.
The competition in Hilltop was very well attended, as have all the other competitions held there. I think there may have been over 50 competitors, nobody was confused by the competition being described as a practical pistol competition and seemed to fully understand what it was about and were able to compete accordingly. This was yet another well organised, well attended and well run competition , following on from the continued success of other Hilltop organised competitions over the last few years.

It appears that those people who took part all had a very enjoyable and competitive competition, which I believe should be one of the objectives of a competition and which was fulfilled by the organisers at Hilltop. I suppose it should be a given that any competition which is safe, well run , well attended and provides a lot of enjoyment for those taking part should really be welcomed and congratulated by all the shooting Associations as it can only be a positive contribution to promotion of shooting sports here. It seems that the comments made by JD could be misunderstood and I think it is important to note, for those interested, that the number of handgun competitions being held in Hilltop is an indication of where the major development of the sport is happening. I was told that there were IPSA and UKPSA members taking part yesterday alongside members of Hilltop and it seems to me that for shooters interested in practical pistol shooting, Hilltop is the only place to be for regular, safe, practical pistol competitions as they seem to be doing quite a lot to promote the sport in a positive way.

Bananaman

I think there may have been over 50 competitors

I believe the total number was 54. If memory serves 5 people had to cancel that morning aswell.

I was told that there were IPSA and UKPSA members taking part yesterday alongside members of Hilltop

Correct - we would usually have a number of competitors from Ireland, Northern Ireland and England. In the last few shoots last year we also had competitiors from other countries. However, we hadn't really advertised this shoot in advance so this time we only had competitors from Ireland and Northern Ireland.

Quite a few are now IPSA registered, a few are UKPSA registered but quite a few are not registered with any region.

There were a good few competitors in Open division - they didn't realise that until the match director inspected their guns :-)
I think a few magazines and magwells are about to be pared down.

Production was also well subscribed.

I was competing in standard division, which was the largest group.
Unfortunately I only came 9th. The division was won by a Hilltop member.

B'Man

Dr_Teeth

Yesterday at Hilltop was my first Practical Pistol shoot. As a trainee, I wasn't scored but I still had an brilliant time!

Like many others I don't yet have a licence for an appropriate firearm, so I would not be able to join IPSA or compete in a sanctioned competition. Club shoots like Hilltop's are not only amazingly good fun (the great weather and food helped too!) but are vital for helping new guys like me try the sport.

Thanks again Bananaman and all the other lads who helped make it happen, I hope there will be many more to come.

Teeth.

packas

Glad to hear the shoot went well yesterday. Good weather as well:)

I agree with a lot of the information posted above (plus fair play for taking the time to explain it all). Club shoots are great for introducing new practical shooters to our fantastic sport. After all it's the clubs who are the grass roots in any region of IPSC.
It's probably been said before but just to clarify for some of the newer practical shooters:-
IPSA are the governing body in Ireland. IPSA qualify shooters & RO's to internationally recognised standards. In an ideal world IPSA would not be running any shoots themselves. That's the role of the clubs which in a more developed region would have a lot more experienced shooters & RO's than Ireland have. As IPSA are a governing body they do not even have a range. However IPSA are running some shoots mostly to give shooters & trainee RO's the experience of working & shooting sanctioned shoots. It's basically for want of a better word (or letters) a P.R. exercise to expose newly qualified shooters to a sanctioned match & a forum for RO's to become qualified. This gives them a solid foundation to allow them to shoot internationally. In time when more clubs have shooters & qualified Ro's I would think that IPSA themselves would not be running any shoots at all.

The IPSA competition course has had such huge international success that even Switzerland & Nambia have been in touch as they wish to adopt it for their region. Plus we've a lot more RO's currently in training. 7 of IPSA existing RO's will hopefully this year be achieving their internationally recognised RO qualification. So at the next European handgun championships or other level III abroad you might hear a very familiar accent saying "load & make ready":D:D

Running a non sanctioned club shoot like Hilltop is fantastic and to take IPSC shooting to the next level hopefully more clubs around the country would consider running sanctioned shoots. I think it will take IPSC shooting to a new level of professionalism in Ireland and will breed international President medal winning athletes. Like abroad (take the Dutch Open for example) maybe clubs in Ireland in a couple of years with the help of IPSA would be regularly be running internationally recognised IPSC Level III matches. Now that would be something fantastic. Imagine having a Level III every couple of months in which you don't have the hassel of having to travel outside the IPSA region:D:D

Upwards & onwards to all IPSC shooters. The sport has a very bright future

Regards,
Pat Murphy
P.R.O. IPSA

cooperjeff9

packas wrote: »

Glad to hear the shoot went well yesterday. Good weather as well:)

I agree with a lot of the information posted above (plus fair play for taking the time to explain it all). Club shoots are great for introducing new practical shooters to our fantastic sport. After all it's the clubs who are the grass roots in any region of IPSC.
It's probably been said before but just to clarify for some of the newer practical shooters:-
IPSA are the governing body in Ireland. IPSA qualify shooters & RO's to internationally recognised standards. In an ideal world IPSA would not be running any shoots themselves. That's the role of the clubs which in a more developed region would have a lot more experienced shooters & RO's than Ireland have. As IPSA are a governing body they do not even have a range. However IPSA are running some shoots mostly to give shooters & trainee RO's the experience of working & shooting sanctioned shoots. It's basically for want of a better word (or letters) a P.R. exercise to expose newly qualified shooters to a sanctioned match & a forum for RO's to become qualified. This gives them a solid foundation to allow them to shoot internationally. In time when more clubs have shooters & qualified Ro's I would think that IPSA themselves would not be running any shoots at all.

The IPSA competition course has had such huge international success that even Switzerland & Nambia have been in touch as they wish to adopt it for their region. Plus we've a lot more RO's currently in training. 7 of IPSA existing RO's will hopefully this year be achieving their internationally recognised RO qualification. So at the next European handgun championships or other level III abroad you might hear a very familiar accent saying "load & make ready":D:D

Running a non sanctioned club shoot like Hilltop is fantastic and to take IPSC shooting to the next level hopefully more clubs around the country would consider running sanctioned shoots. I think it will take IPSC shooting to a new level of professionalism in Ireland and will breed international President medal winning athletes. Like abroad (take the Dutch Open for example) maybe clubs in Ireland in a couple of years with the help of IPSA would be regularly be running internationally recognised IPSC Level III matches. Now that would be something fantastic. Imagine having a Level III every couple of months in which you don't have the hassel of having to travel outside the IPSA region:D:D

Upwards & onwards to all IPSC shooters. The sport has a very bright future

Regards,
Pat Murphy
P.R.O. IPSA

That's great info Pat, it would have been great to have yesterday's shoot sanctioned so I suppose in light of what you have said the IPSA will sanction the next shoot at Hilltop and really get the sport moving.

packas

Hi Cooperjeff9,

Sanctioned shoots would be great but there were visiting shooters coming to Hilltop to shoot the comp. yesterday who were not members of a region so unfortunately that's the reason the shoot was a club shoot rather than a sanctioned shoot.

By the way is there any way it would be possible to post the results of the top 3 in each divsion?

Come on SidneyReily where did you feature in the rankings :D

macnas

cooperjeff9 wrote: »

That's great info Pat, it would have been great to have yesterday's shoot sanctioned so I suppose in light of what you have said the IPSA will sanction the next shoot at Hilltop and really get the sport moving.

I'm always a bit suspicious of the 'one post wonders' who land here with some glorious message and then disappear without a trace.
But if you are going to stick around here, spreading the love, could you please change your username, I personally find it disrespectful and offensive. You can PM if you need me to explain to you why.

Bananaman

I could be wrong but I believe that the IPSC rules allow for shooters who are not members of a region to compete in sanctioned shoots, provided the shoot is no higher than a Level I.

http://www.ipsc.org/pdf/RulesHandgun.pdf
Appendix A1

02. Competitors must be individual members of their IPSC Region of residence (Section 6.5)

Level I - Recommended
Level II - Mandatory
Level III - Mandatory
Level IV - Mandatory
Level V - Mandatory

As the rule is only a recommendation I believe that it is at the discretion of the regional director/committee to make that call.

Based on a - very old - discussion had with Vince Pinto (IPSC Secretary) on this stuff I also believe that the spirit of Level I is to be exactly that - introductory shoots where people can try the sport without having committed to the sport. And I quote:

Appendix A1 of the rulebook provides an exception for Level 1 Club Matches, because that's where and when potential members are introduced to IPSC, and most people like to "try before they buy".

I seriously hope that there is some chance of getting Level I sanctioned matches where people who have not yet decided to join a region can compete. I think in the long run this would lead to a more active schedule in the higher level matches which will in all probability get everyone to join IPSA so that they can attend those. If you had alternating Level I and II matches people would have to join up or else only be able to attend half the shoots.

I think it goes without saying, but I'll say it anyway, that that does not create an open door policy but would require the host range to be responsible for those who are not a member of any region. Again, my interpretation is that is the spirit intended by Level I matches.

B'man

cooperjeff9

Bananaman wrote: »

I could be wrong but I believe that the IPSC rules allow for shooters who are not members of a region to compete in sanctioned shoots, provided the shoot is no higher than a Level I.

http://www.ipsc.org/pdf/RulesHandgun.pdf
Appendix A1



As the rule is only a recommendation I believe that it is at the discretion of the regional director/committee to make that call.

Based on a - very old - discussion had with Vince Pinto (IPSC Secretary) on this stuff I also believe that the spirit of Level I is to be exactly that - introductory shoots where people can try the sport without having committed to the sport. And I quote:



I seriously hope that there is some chance of getting Level I sanctioned matches where people who have not yet decided to join a region can compete. I think in the long run this would lead to a more active schedule in the higher level matches which will in all probability get everyone to join IPSA so that they can attend those. If you had alternating Level I and II matches people would have to join up or else only be able to attend half the shoots.

I think it goes without saying, but I'll say it anyway, that that does not create an open door policy but would require the host range to be responsible for those who are not a member of any region. Again, my interpretation is that is the spirit intended by Level I matches.

B'man

That appears to be a fair understanding of the IPSC rules and it makes a lot of sense. I am sure that anyone would agree as there is no requirement for competitors to join an Association prior to competing in introductory competitions, the safety aspect is the responsibility of the RO's there on the day and it is also in the host clubs interest to ensure that everything is run correctly. I think it is fair to say that the common practice worldwide in shooting competitions is to allow people to compete on the basis that they are safe unless they (competitor) prove otherwise. In the event of rules not being adhered to there are procedures in place to deal with these incidents i.e. shooters in the Europeans being DQ'd and not all from regions who don't have Competition Licence courses. So I believe it would be a positive move to sanction level 1 competitions which in turn allows more people access to competitions and also incrrease IPSA membership. Seems simple enough, win/win for both the IPSA and host Clubs who could gain new members.