Bert Randolph Sugar's Top 10 Heavyweights

pacman murphy

Anyone see the three part series on ESPN Classic over the last few nights.I know Bert Sugar is a boxing guru but I wouldn't agree with his choice of Joe Louis as the greatest heavyweight of all time ahead of Muhammad Ali.Mike Tyson, Riddick Bowe and Sonny Liston all failed to make the top ten which was very surprising.

1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Jack Dempsey
4. Jack Johnson
5. Gene Tunney
6. Rock Marciano
7. Ezzard Charles
8. George Foreman
9. Joe Fraizer
10. Larry Holmes

walshb

I can see why maybe Liston and Bowe didn't make it, but Charles in the top ten??, ahead of Lewis, Holyfield, Tyson....

Charles wasn't even a true true heavyweight.

He won a title, but was hardly a force in the division....

megadodge

I'm never a fan of old-timer's lists, simply because they're always weighted in favour of the old-timer's contemporaries and a modern boxer never even gets a sniff of a lookin.

I wouldn't have Tunney, Marciano or Charles in the top 10 at all.

I wouldn't have Louis ahead of Ali but I would have Joe in 2nd. Magnificent fighter.

Holmes, Foreman and Lewis would be fighting it out for the next 3 positions, with Tyson just behind.

Frazier, Holyfield, Bowe, Dempsey and Johnson would probably be in the running for the 4 remaining spots.


Now cue the 'prime Tyson beats anyone' debate....

walshb

megadodge wrote: »

I'm never a fan of old-timer's lists, simply because they're always weighted in favour of the old-timer's contemporaries and a modern boxer never even gets a sniff of a lookin.

I wouldn't have Tunney, Marciano or Charles in the top 10 at all.

I wouldn't have Louis ahead of Ali but I would have Joe in 2nd. Magnificent fighter.

Holmes, Foreman and Lewis would be fighting it out for the next 3 positions, with Tyson just behind.

Frazier, Holyfield, Bowe, Dempsey and Johnson would probably be in the running for the 4 remaining spots.


Now cue the 'prime Tyson beats anyone' debate....

Mega, to not include Marciano, who holds the most famous and prestigious
record in sports history (49-0) would IMO not be correct. We can argue all day about how good he was or wasn't, but his record speaks for itself. The only ever undefeated heavyweight champ. He gets on the list for this alone....

cowzerp

walshb wrote: »

Mega, to not include Marciano, who holds the most famous and prestigious
record in sports history (49-0) would IMO not be correct. We can argue all day about how good he was or wasn't, but his record speaks for itself. The only ever undefeated heavyweight champ. He gets on the list for this alone....

Bren, by this logic bernard dunne is a top fighter and definetly world class.
Marciano beat lots of cans and i have my doubts about wheter or not he was a mafia money making machine, thats my guess! lots of thrown fights! Also its well known that he was beaten in amateur fights during his pro carreer, this kind of tarnishes it too, no money involved and he loses!!

Anyways my top 10 list, changes all the time!!
1, Ali
2. Foreman
3. Louis
4. Holyfield
5. Tyson
6. Frazier
7. Bowe, genuinely could have been 1st!
8. Holmes
9. Dempsey
10. Johnson

Ali is the number 1 sports man ever in my opinion and brought boxing across the world through his skill and charisma!

Foreman was a beast and was unstoppable, untill Ali, hence Ali been no,1

louis, the brown bomber was strong skillfull and had great heart and determination, great.

Holyfield, The most succesful Heavyweight(with Ali) and light heavyweight, what an achievement for a "small" heavyweight. I love him!

Tyson, on his day could smash anyone in 1 round, but could also be beaten by any of the top 10 too, genuine legend.

Frazier, kind of like Tyson, another legend.

Bowe, Maybe should of been a better version of big george but never fulfilled his potential, lacked true heart, but he was scary!

Holmes, probably the closest thing to Ali and a real under rated boxer, class. could be higher on this list?

Dempsey, His aggressive style and punching power made him one of the most popular boxers in history,

Johnson, The 1st black heavyweight champion, a major feat in them times and 1 of the 1st boxers to really focus on the skills of boxing, kind of like an early Ali, this was a new way back then-legend just for that alone!


As i said, this is all open to change, i tend to switch this about all the time depending on which i seen last and how excited i was etc.. there is also loads of others that could enter the list and beat those on the list-too many to put all in! I enjoyed doing this!

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

Bren, by this logic bernard dunne is a top fighter and definetly world class.
Marciano beat lots of cans and i have my doubts about wheter or not he was a mafia money making machine, thats my guess! lots of thrown fights! Also its well known that he was beaten in amateur fights during his pro carreer, this kind of tarnishes it too, no money involved and he loses!!

Anyways my top 10 list, changes all the time!!
1, Ali
2. Foreman
3. Louis
4. Holyfield
5. Tyson
6. Frazier
7. Bowe, genuinely could have been 1st!
8. Holmes
9. Dempsey
10. Johnson

Ali is the number 1 sports man ever in my opinion and brought boxing across the world through his skill and charisma!

Foreman was a beast and was unstoppable, untill Ali, hence Ali been no,1

louis, the brown bomber was strong skillfull and had great heart and determination, great.

Holyfield, The most succesful Heavyweight(with Ali) and light heavyweight, what an achievement for a "small" heavyweight. I love him!

Tyson, on his day could smash anyone in 1 round, but could also be beaten by any of the top 10 too, genuine legend.

Frazier, kind of like Tyson, another legend.

Bowe, Maybe should of been a better version of big george but never fulfilled his potential, lacked true heart, but he was scary!

Holmes, probably the closest thing to Ali and a real under rated boxer, class. could be higher on this list?

Dempsey, His aggressive style and punching power made him one of the most popular boxers in history,

Johnson, The 1st black heavyweight champion, a major feat in them times and 1 of the 1st boxers to really focus on the skills of boxing, kind of like an early Ali, this was a new way back then-legend just for that alone!


As i said, this is all open to change, i tend to switch this about all the time depending on which i seen last and how excited i was etc.. there is also loads of others that could enter the list and beat those on the list-too many to put all in! I enjoyed doing this!

C'mon....Dunne-Marciano.....:D

Look, Rocky was the man for his era and some may think the opposition was
not great but at the time he was the best fighter on the planet and was unbeaten
thru his career. He was rugged and looked unskilled at times, but the Rock was so strong, hard hitting and obviously effective. He has to be top 10

Rocky beat anyone who was on the planet at the time and never lost...

End of story....

walshb

My list is

Ali
Foreman
Louis
Marciano
Frazier
Tyson
Holyfield
Dempsey
Johnson
Holmes

cowzerp

walshb wrote: »

C'mon....Dunne-Marciano.....:D

Look, Rocky was the man for his era and some may think the opposition was
not great but at the time he was the best fighter on the planet and was unbeaten
thru his career. He was rugged and looked unskilled at times, but the Rock was so strong, hard hitting and obviously effective. He has to be top 10

Rocky beat anyone who was on the planet at the time and never lost...

End of story....

Im not comparing them, im comparing your reasoning!
marciano beat chumps or in my opinion people paid to take a dive, i'd say joe louis was in that category! back then the coloured boxers where regularly forced to throw fights! record great, actual carreer is questioned! either way he was a shoddy boxer that would not be top 50 in this day and age, the same cant be said for anyone in my top 10.

megadodge

I did a breakdown here before of Marciano's reign and it was decidedly unflattering.

Briefly it went something like - won the title by beating the then oldest ever champ. Landed a beaut while well behind. KO'd the now even older ex-champ in the rematch. Beat a good fighter in LaStarza, no arguments. Struggled to outpoint an old and past-it natural MIDDLEWEIGHT in Ezzard Charles. Beat him again in a rematch when Charles had hardly got better in the meantime.
Beat a very fat and ordinary light-heavy in Cockell. Nearly got KO'd early by an ancient light-heavy (who was also a natural middle in his prime) but eventually put him away. Retires.

That record just doesn't do it for me.

Also if you're going by who beats who, he would be a SMALL CRUISER by today's standards and I just couldn't see him getting anywhere near most of the other heavies mentioned on my top 10, the exceptions being Frazier and Dempsey, who with their styles would have had made an exciting fight with Rocky but I think would both stop him in about 5-6 rounds. As for Tyson, with his speed and natural size advantage he could genuinely have KO'd him in one round.

He's one of the all-time overrated boxers in my opinion.

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

Im not comparing them, im comparing your reasoning!
marciano beat chumps or in my opinion people paid to take a dive, i'd say joe louis was in that category! back then the coloured boxers where regularly forced to throw fights! record great, actual carreer is questioned! either way he was a shoddy boxer that would not be top 50 in this day and age, the same cant be said for anyone in my top 10.

Paul, I knew that because we both know comparing them literally
would be ludicrous...

menoscemo

cowzerp wrote: »

Bren, by this logic bernard dunne is a top fighter and definetly world class.
Marciano beat lots of cans and i have my doubts about wheter or not he was a mafia money making machine, thats my guess! lots of thrown fights! Also its well known that he was beaten in amateur fights during his pro carreer, this kind of tarnishes it too, no money involved and he loses!!

Anyways my top 10 list, changes all the time!!
1, Ali
2. Foreman
3. Louis
4. Holyfield
5. Tyson
6. Frazier
7. Bowe, genuinely could have been 1st!
8. Holmes
9. Dempsey
10. Johnson

Ali is the number 1 sports man ever in my opinion and brought boxing across the world through his skill and charisma!

Foreman was a beast and was unstoppable, untill Ali, hence Ali been no,1

louis, the brown bomber was strong skillfull and had great heart and determination, great.

Holyfield, The most succesful Heavyweight(with Ali) and light heavyweight, what an achievement for a "small" heavyweight. I love him!

Tyson, on his day could smash anyone in 1 round, but could also be beaten by any of the top 10 too, genuine legend.

Frazier, kind of like Tyson, another legend.

Bowe, Maybe should of been a better version of big george but never fulfilled his potential, lacked true heart, but he was scary!

Holmes, probably the closest thing to Ali and a real under rated boxer, class. could be higher on this list?

Dempsey, His aggressive style and punching power made him one of the most popular boxers in history,

Johnson, The 1st black heavyweight champion, a major feat in them times and 1 of the 1st boxers to really focus on the skills of boxing, kind of like an early Ali, this was a new way back then-legend just for that alone!


As i said, this is all open to change, i tend to switch this about all the time depending on which i seen last and how excited i was etc.. there is also loads of others that could enter the list and beat those on the list-too many to put all in! I enjoyed doing this!

I cannot see how you can put Bowe in that list and Not mention Lewis (lennox). Lenny battered his head in the Olympic Final and Bowe threw his belt in the bin to avoid fighting him as a pro.

cowzerp

menoscemo wrote: »

I cannot see how you can put Bowe in that list and Not mention Lewis (lennox). Lenny battered his head in the Olympic Final and Bowe threw his belt in the bin to avoid fighting him as a pro.

I dont rate lennox as a top fighter ever,he was the best when everyone else was either old or useless,and klitchko battered him in there fight. Bowe in my opinion had the potential to be the best there was, he has issues and always did-if you say lewis is better because he beat bowe as an amateur then i guess Marciano is better than louis! fortunately boxing does not work like that.

walshb

Marciano was better than Louis. He beat him decisively. And I know Louis was past his best, but prime for prime I think Marciano still wins as he had the chin and the punch. Louis' chin I don't think takes Marciano's best at any stage....