Was V Clerc's first try valid?

Sandwich

No not for the forward pass (which may have been there but I would give them the benefit of the doubt on that one).

But did he not work a bit too hard on the ground before touching the ball down after being tackled? He was held by the tackler - should he not have been penalised for not releasing?

I remember Darcy saving an English try in the corner in Twickenham a few years ago when he was clearly hanging on to the attacker's leg and so the try was not given.

figs86

had a think about it at the time but im pretty sure he never grounded it before the line and never stopped moving - hence not a double movement, valid try

loved the french flair though the scoreline was little flattering, bounce of the ball certainly went their way - except for malzieu's try which was a comedy of errors!

phog

Just watching it on "Against the Head" now and aside from an iffy forward pass the try was perfect as he perfectly entitled to make an effort to ground the ball, if he was short he would have had to release but in this case he grounded on the line - try awarded.

Mushy

I think there was a hint of second movement in that try. He was stopped by defence just short of line, and then jumped forward again. Bit 50/50 on it though in this case, could go either way.

Hippo

The pass wasn't iffy, it was miles forward!

toomevara

In rugby league it would never have been awarded because the video ref can check for stuff like that blatant forward pass in the build-up...time union took a leaf I think...but as regards the grounding, no problem as far as I can see, didn't ground the ball after the tackle and then reached for the line..no problem.

Hippo

toomevara wrote: »

In rugby league it would never have been awarded because the video ref can check for stuff like that blatant forward pass in the build-up...time union took a leaf I think...but as regards the grounding, no problem as far as I can see, didn't ground the ball after the tackle and then reached for the line..no problem.

Absolutely, union should be following league in this

phog

Hippo wrote: »

The pass wasn't iffy, it was miles forward!

toomevara wrote: »

In rugby league it would never have been awarded because the video ref can check for stuff like that blatant forward pass in the build-up...time union took a leaf I think...but as regards the grounding, no problem as far as I can see, didn't ground the ball after the tackle and then reached for the line..no problem.

Hippo wrote: »

Absolutely, union should be following league in this

The OP wasn't questioning the forward pass, the query was around not releasing the ball once tackled.

marco_polo

toomevara wrote: »

In rugby league it would never have been awarded because the video ref can check for stuff like that blatant forward pass in the build-up...time union took a leaf I think...but as regards the grounding, no problem as far as I can see, didn't ground the ball after the tackle and then reached for the line..no problem.

Would have been a try in league too because the Video ref cannot make a call on a forward pass either. Apparently because it is considered a judgement call by the referee and also has alot to do with the "momentum rule" as well. It is true that they have alot more powers than a union TMO though and can take into account knock ons or offsides etc in disallowing a try not just judging on the grounding and or touch.

I think that as he was never fully stopped it was not a double movement and it was a valid try, although you could make a decent argument that it wasn't.

Hippo

phog wrote: »

The OP wasn't questioning the forward pass, the query was around not releasing the ball once tackled.

But we were. Apologies for being so phenomenally off-topic.

Steffano2002

Of course the try is valid! It's Vincent Clerc! He's French! He plays for Toulouse! He's the best!

I didn't see the forward pass. In fact I barely saw the try! Was at the other end of the stadium... And haven't seen it on TV yet...

It's great to have a French referee sometimes!

Stev_o

toomevara wrote: »

In rugby league it would never have been awarded because the video ref can check for stuff like that blatant forward pass in the build-up...time union took a leaf I think...but as regards the grounding, no problem as far as I can see, didn't ground the ball after the tackle and then reached for the line..no problem.

nonononono please not this would mean EVERY try thats "scored" will be checked through the TMO and i think it just degrads the game, its creeping in already with plenty of ref's using the TMO for every try they see even if they know its a try.

toomevara

marco_polo wrote: »

Would have been a try in league too because the Video ref cannot make a call on a forward pass either. Apparently because it is considered a judgement call by the referee and also has alot to do with the "momentum rule" as well

Absolutely right, I stand corrected. Can rule on knock-ons, off-sides, obstructions, hold-up's etc...but not a forward pass...

Steffano2002

Steffano2002 wrote: »

Of course the try is valid! It's Vincent Clerc! He's French! He plays for Toulouse! He's the best!

I didn't see the forward pass. In fact I barely saw the try! Was at the other end of the stadium... And haven't seen it on TV yet...

It's great to have a French referee sometimes!

The referee was Irish - Alain Rolland. An international rugby game never has a ref from the same country as one of the two teams involved....

Sandwich

Alain est Francais-Irish. Never seen even a hint of bias though when he is reffing a French team. Fine ref I think, only criticism would be that he 'coaches' both teams too much for me, but that seems to be ref policy these days; 'reculez', 'hands off','lachez', 'ball is out' etc.


Off topic, but now Ive started:
To me this tendency prevents teams who are disciplined and know the rules from getting a due advatage over those who are less so. For eg, sometimes it helps the attacking team to have him warn a defender to release the ball so that they retain advantage. But other times it would be more to their advantage if he let the offending team offend and so give the penalty to the attacker. Warning the offending player he is about to blow, is in fact letting him off the hook, and disadvantaging the other team. Roland is very vocal and generally praised for it but can go too far. I think there was a case on Saturday wher the ball was out at the back of the ruck. Roland called or signaled this which triggered the defending team to pounce - but they hadnt notice the ball until he did so. Excessive interference I think.

komodosp

I always thought the ref had to say when the ball was out of the ruck to indicate that the ruck is now officially over and so special ruck rules (e.g. ruck offside rules) no longer apply, same with mauls...

But having said that commentators sometimes seem to say "Well I'd give it to him cos it was a very well worked try", with regard to the "possible" forward pass, but your point is quite relevant here! This would mean that teams who work hard at the discipline and making sure passes never go forward are kind of being punished here...