Are they all rock fans?

tunaman

Here is a short video I found on youtube, which shows more than a few high profile people using these strange hand signs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKWVu0BsFkE

I don't watch much TV, but have even seen people in ads making the sign.

Gordon

Hehe, they could all be satanists! That's scary.

It also means "I love you" in sign language. So they could be spreading love also.

jessop1

A lot of people do that hand sign without knowing its true meaning, especially rock stars and fans.

But there are a lot of mass murderers shown in the video, they undoubtedly do know its meaning. Some of the celebrities too, no doubt. In my opinion.

bonkey

I can't watch the video here in work, but I'm going to guess that it shows a lot of people supporting Uinversity of Texas

jessop1

mm Ahmadinejad supports the texas hook em horns :rolleyes: take a look at the vid, your explanation may fit a couple of the photos, but only a couple..

bonkey

So I watched the video, as promised. Here's my opinion of it....

The video presents three groups of people, all of whom are typically making a similar handsign...

1) Known prominents, predominantly American politicians
2) Occultists
3) Rock Stars / fans

So, having established these three groups, it suggests (through the question the video also uses as its title) that group 1's actions cannot be explained by their being members of group 3. The impliction is, of course, that this means they're part of group 2.

Where it falls down is that it ignores other uses of the corna. While it does have some satanic/occult links, it is also used (predominantly by Italians and those of Italian descent) as a sign to ward off evil. As mentioned in a previous post, it is also used in relation to sports - I referenced the Texan case yesterday, but its worth nothing that the Universities of Northwestern State, South Florida, and New Mexico also use the sign. Additionally, the Italians also use the corna as a joke when taking pictures, in the same way that "bunny ears" is often done in English-speaking nations.

So...look at the video again. Ignore the pictures of the occultists (who we know do it) and the rock stars/fans (who we know do it). They're only there to set up the suggestion that if its not rock-related, its occult-related, but we've already established that this is misleading. Lets limit ourselves to what I referred to group 1 above.

You'll see a lot of pics of Dubya (a Texan), and his family (Texans, who attended UoT). You'll see that some of the pics even appear to be taken at a sporting event, with members of the public standing behind whoever (typically Dubya) is shown, making a similar sign. You'll see a number of shots of various other politicians, in unknown situations, typically speaking in front of unknown crowds, making this sign. Of course, such politicians could be canvassing in Texas, or Florida, or New Mexico....but unfortunately none of the pics show enough context to let us determine that.

So at the very least, we should be suspicious of these pictures. There are a number of perfectly reasonable explanations, but because the viewer is denied all context (except for the insinuation that if they're not rock fans, they could be occultists), we're being denied any opportunity to meaningfully determine what is going on, case by case.

Then there's a few (the Pope and the Queen spring to mind) where its not entirely clear what gesture they're making, nor any apparent reason for it).

So lets say we took all those out. Lets say we cut the pics of the occultists, the rock-stars, the pics from people obviously campaigning or at sports events, pics where the thumb is obviously also extended (because you'll find thats a different symbol with a different meaning, if you check into it)...and what are we left with?

We're left with a few pics of Bush making this gesture in in appropriate places, and a small handful of other pics which we can't ascribe a reason for. Why would a sports-fan make this sign at a non-sporting event, some may ask. Well, apply the same reasoning to the occult interpretation and we need a reason why the person in question is engaging in specific occcult practices at the time and place the pic was taken from. Do we have that reason? No, we don't.

In summary, the video is designed to lead you to a conclusion. It does so by misrepresenting at least some of its content. It does so by omitting to mention the sporting connection. This should say one of two things to you : either the producer of the piece hasn't researched their subject very well, or they deliberately chose to omit information that would explain at least some of what they present as 'evidence'.

So we either have a poor researcher, or a dishonest producer. Consider that while considering the message this researcher/producer asks you to.

jessop1

a lot of bluster to say pretty much nothing. I advise people to look at the video themselves they will see that you have not at all adequately explained all of the different politicians and elites in different scenarios, making speeches etc (very few look like they are at a sports event) from different nations and cultures making this sign.

ommitting the sporting connection is not dishonest because this is a globally recognised hand symbol whereas most non americans are not aware of the sporting connection.

showing the occultists and the occult symbols is designed to show people the true origins of the sign - long before sports clubs and sign language came into use.

as a side note (for anyone actually interested in exploring the satanic connections of the worlds power elite - not waving it off), check out hilarys website, you will see a very strange US flag at her new hampshire rally - all of the stars are upside down (see the satanic pentagram in the video from the op) .

Heres the link to here website:
http://www.hillaryclinton.com/blog/view/?id=21760#view_comments
The picture below is on the slideshow. There also appears to be a separate normal flag in the same hall.


Heres an interesting analysis on it

humanji

Just so you know, the upside down pentagram has nothing to do with devil worship. People just assume it does.

Here's a site that gives a couple of possible reasons for the stars:
http://www.usa-flag-site.org/forum/stars-upside-down-on-a-flag-1882.html

It looks to be a cock up and nothing more. I'd lay good money that if Jessop1 ran for president and that happened, you'd have just as many people claiming you were a devil worshiper
(and it gives a small bit of trivia about the orignal US flag. I'd never actually seen it before )

jessop1

humanji wrote: »

Just so you know, the upside down pentagram has nothing to do with devil worship. People just assume it does.

A pentagram (sometimes known as a pentalpha or pentangle or, more formally, as a star pentagon) is the shape of a five-pointed star drawn with five straight strokes.



Satanists use a pentagram with two points up

humanji wrote: »

Here's a site that gives a couple of possible reasons for the stars:
http://www.usa-flag-site.org/forum/stars-upside-down-on-a-flag-1882.html

They were sown on upside down by accident.. hmm...

oscarBravo

I've seen the original flag, in the Smithsonian. It's pretty big, and an impressive sight.

jessop1 wrote: »

ommitting the sporting connection is not dishonest because this is a globally recognised hand symbol whereas most non americans are not aware of the sporting connection.

That's actually a compelling reason why the video's author should have explained the connection. I wasn't aware of it until bonkey mentioned it, and it explains away a lot (not all, granted) of the images in the video.

oscarBravo

jessop1 wrote: »

They were sown on upside down by accident.. hmm...

It's a perfectly valid explanation (more accurately, the explanation is that the entire union field was sewn in upside-down). Do you have a more convincing one?

jessop1

oscarBravo wrote: »

I've seen the original flag, in the Smithsonian. It's pretty big, and an impressive sight. That's actually a compelling reason why the video's author should have explained the connection. I wasn't aware of it until bonkey mentioned it, and it explains away a lot (not all, granted) of the images in the video.

as I said, it may explain a small minority of the pictures - nowhere near "a lot". people should watch the video and judge for themselves anyway.

jessop1

oscarBravo wrote: »

It's a perfectly valid explanation

hard to believe hilarys flag sourcing and flag hanging people have such crap qc.

humanji

But Satanism isn't about devil worship. There's many different forms, ranging in specifics (in the same way as Christianity has many denominations), but the main point was as a rejection of the forceful way christianity was taught. The basic principles being humanism instead of causing suffering.

The problem is that through the ages, people (most likely egged on by the church) have assumed that satanists are devil worshipers.

And as for the "accidental" sowing the stars wrong, the site doesn't say that. The site points out that only flags hung in office must have the stars pointing up. And it also points out that the original flag didn't have the stars facing up.

oscarBravo

jessop1 wrote: »

as I said, it may explain a small minority of the pictures - nowhere near "a lot". people should watch the video and judge for themselves anyway.

I've watched it. Between sports fans and silly pictures of people who happen to have two of their fingers slightly bent, there really aren't that many pictures left to wonder about.

jessop1 wrote: »

hard to believe hilarys flag sourcing and flag hanging people have such crap qc.

Who said her people sourced or hung the flag? I would imagine it was already there.

Plus, as humanji has pointed out, there's no breach of protocol involved.

Anyway, any sign of a more convincing explanation?

bonkey

jessop1 wrote: »

I advise people to look at the video themselves

You say this as though my post didn't encourage the same. I specifically asked that people consider my analysis of the "tricks" used by the producer while they watch it.

they will see that you have not at all adequately explained all of the different politicians and elites in different scenarios,

Again, you say this as though my post suggests that I have adequately explained all of them.

If you re-read it, you'll see from my post that I never claimed to adequately explain all. Indeed, I explicitly noted that in some cases that it is impossible to offer any explanation because of the lack of context. I added that in other cases, there's no clear meaning at all.

What I did do, though, is explain clearly that if no context is immediately obvious, then that equally applies to any claim of occultism as it does to any other usage of the symbol. This is the difference between my stance and that of the producer of the piece. They (and you) appear to take the stance that in the absence of a better explanation, some connection to occultism is reasonable. I disagree. My position is that in the absence of context, it is impossible to determine what the usage is meant to be. As I've stated in another thread, this skeptical position means that I cannot rule out a link to occultism and neither can I assume one.

ommitting the sporting connection is not dishonest because this is a globally recognised hand symbol whereas most non americans are not aware of the sporting connection.

In the vast majority of cases, the images are of an American notable, in front of an American crowd. That some third party may not understand that Americans understand the issue differently should put more onus on the producer to point that out, not less.

showing the occultists and the occult symbols is designed to show people the true origins of the sign - long before sports clubs and sign language came into use.

Its one of the origins of the sign. As I've already mentioned, its use to ward off the evil eye is a long-established usage. Its use in satanism is less well-established, having really only been popularised in the 60s. Hinduism and Buddhism have also an independantly-evolved meaning for the term. Its use to suggest cuckolding in Italy is also - from what I can tell - a long-standing, independantly-evolved usage.

However, even if there were only one true origin, that has nothing to do with the usage of the expression today. We rarely use the word sinister to denote left-handedness, but thats its origins. Does that mean that when someone refers to something being "sinister" we should consider the left-handed "true" origins of the term over and above the context in which they meant it to be used?

as a side note (for anyone actually interested in exploring the satanic connections of the worlds power elite - not waving it off),

I'm not the one waving things off.

I am asking that we don't ignore the alternate meanings of the term, whereas you and the producer both seem to want them disregarded.
I am asking that we don't ignore the lack of context which is crucial to determining the meaning, whereas you and the producer both seem to think that its not needed....especially once we have ignored all the other possible contexts.
I am asking that we consider that if even one photo has clearly been taken out of context we consider the implications of that. You see this as bluster and suggest that we ignore the argument because there are other pictures...that its okay if the producer is only known to be a little dishonest because we haven't shown that he's 100% dishonest.

check out hilarys website, you will see a very strange US flag at her new hampshire rally - all of the stars are upside down (see the satanic pentagram in the video from the op) .

A few minutes research into the history of the pentagram will show that the "two points up" configuration pre-dates satanism, nor is it limited to it. Again, jessop1 is favouring a single interpretation of many, and forming an argument around the assumption that only this interpretation of the meaning is valid.

It is also worth asking who's flag is it? Hilary's? Someone senior in her campaign? Someone junior in her campaign? The owner of the venue where she was speaking? Has she any connection to the flag, other than having been in the same place as it during her campaign?

The skeptic will look for these answers before drawing a conclusion.

humanji

jessop1 wrote: »

hard to believe hilarys flag sourcing and flag hanging people have such crap qc.

Why would they check the flag, though? I never knew anything about what way the stars should point until you pointed the picture out to us. If I was making the flag, I wouldn't go out of my way to point the stars in a particular direction. If I was hanging it, I wouldn't of checked it at all. And people who know the stars should point in a particula direction would most likely assume that the flag is alright. It's easy to miss things in plain sight. That's why I always lose my keys

meglome

jessop1 when I looked at that video the first thing that stood out to me that it was very slanted in one direction, that these people were occultists or Satanists and that was the only explanation. It was obvious that some of the people just had their moving hand photographed at a angle but it could not be said that they were actually making the sign. It was obvious that some of them were just sports salutes. To me this video is nothing short of propaganda and I think it's obviously so. It doesn't mean that some of these people are definetly not occultists or Satanists, I have no way to know. One thing is for sure this video doesn't show this either way.

What I'm yet again astonished about is that you choose to believe this obviously flawed one sided video against any other possible reason for this gesture or hand movement. Is there any conspiracy you don't believe?

Kernel

humanji wrote: »

Just so you know, the upside down pentagram has nothing to do with devil worship. People just assume it does.

Eh, sorry, but that's completely wrong. Have you read up on Satanism and the Occult through the ages? If you did then you would know that the inverted pentagram has long been a symbol of Satanism.

Edit: Levi, Agrippa, Crowley among other noted occultists used it to symbolise the descent of man's spirit into the abyss, rather than the traditional pentagram which was used to symbolise human spirituality. Anton Levey, founder of the Church of Satan used it as a symbol for his 'church' and included the head of Baphomet (or the goat head) inside it.

Run_to_da_hills

Another interesting link on this subject, Mr George Bush seems to be a regulat culprit. http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Wicca%20&%20Witchcraft/signs_of_satan.htm

humanji

Kernel wrote: »

Eh, sorry, but that's completely wrong. Have you read up on Satanism and the Occult through the ages? If you did then you would know that the inverted pentagram has long been a symbol of Satanism.

Edit: Levi, Agrippa, Crowley among other noted occultists used it to symbolise the descent of man's spirit into the abyss, rather than the traditional pentagram which was used to symbolise human spirituality. Anton Levey, founder of the Church of Satan used it as a symbol for his 'church' and included the head of Baphomet (or the goat head) inside it.

LeVey founded the Church of Satan in the 60's, so I wouldn't exactly use that as a historical reference. But if you check out the tenents of the Church Of Satan, they're almost complete opposites of the rules laid out by Catholicism. It's all about enjoying life instead of suffering. Which is one of the reasons that I can't see that any of the political figures refered to, would be satanists, since it's all about elevating humans to the level of gods, enjoying the world and working for the benefit of mankind.

Crowley was a nut who went through a "satanist" phase when he was practicing his magick. He was obsessed with rediscovering an ancient form of paganism that involved sex. Basically, he was a pervert with way too much time on his hands (although, if his church is still around then I want to sign up ). But for any interested, he's worth reading up on because, although he was a nut, he did have a bizarrely fascinating life.

The pentagram has been in use for a long long time. Before Christianity, even. Many people, like Agrippa, Levi and Crowley, believed that these symbols had magical properties. By inverting them, you gain the opposite effect, or reverse the meaning. Satanists used the inverted pentagram because the standard pentagram in Christianity represents the 5 wounds of Christ. So, the inverted pentagram is a way of spitting in the eye of Christianity (in particular the Catholic Church).

Actually, I was under the impression that the upturned pentagram was in use for a few hundred years, but I was looking through a few books last night and can't actually find any references to it before the 19th century (when modern Satanism started). I was pretty sure it was about before then, so I'll keep looking.

time130808

It may sound crazy but most if not all world leaders are satanists, their all members of the freemasons, skull and bones, illuminati etc.
They build this world in great confusion, to force on us the devils illusion..Bob Marley.
Just check out these groups, their high profile members and tell me there's not an evil cabal ruling this planet. Also check out the biggest pentagram made into the washington dc streets with the southern point landing directly on the white house. All aint all it seems at first. Babylon your throne going down..

look at:
famous freemasons
Skull and Bones
Illuminati

humanji

Hmmm, my Casey212 sense is tingling...

tunaman

oscarBravo wrote: »

I've watched it. Between sports fans and silly pictures of people who happen to have two of their fingers slightly bent, there really aren't that many pictures left to wonder about.

So what about all of these?

http://img38.picoodle.com/img/img38/8/7/6/f_arihornsm_63d28f9.jpg

http://www.psalm9416.com/bg_1205_club_diablo.jpg

http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/8052/abdullahsatansignuh2.jpg

http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/6594/tomridgesatansignma7.jpg

http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/5232/danquaylehornedsignsu3.jpg

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc4/newsouljah87/handsigns/3062959779jf8.jpg


None of them can leave you in any doubt that the hand signs are deliberate, while none of them are Italian, so that rules out bonkey's explanation.

Is there any explanation for why these signs can also be seen in TV ads?

Kernel

humanji wrote: »

LeVey founded the Church of Satan in the 60's, so I wouldn't exactly use that as a historical reference. But if you check out the tenents of the Church Of Satan, they're almost complete opposites of the rules laid out by Catholicism. It's all about enjoying life instead of suffering. Which is one of the reasons that I can't see that any of the political figures refered to, would be satanists, since it's all about elevating humans to the level of gods, enjoying the world and working for the benefit of mankind.

Personal power over compassion for others and being elevated to the level of gods is fairly consistent with a new world order, why would you say that for those reasons politicians would be adverse to the idea??

humanji wrote: »

Crowley was a nut who went through a "satanist" phase when he was practicing his magick. He was obsessed with rediscovering an ancient form of paganism that involved sex. Basically, he was a pervert with way too much time on his hands (although, if his church is still around then I want to sign up ). But for any interested, he's worth reading up on because, although he was a nut, he did have a bizarrely fascinating life.

The O.T.O is still around (well, a form of it). I read the biography of Crowley by Colin Wilson, and found it a fascinating read. I disagree that he was a 'nut' as would most occultists who still hold him in high regard. Your pschoanalysis of him is overly simplistic in my opinion.

oscarBravo

tunaman wrote: »

So what about all of these?

http://img38.picoodle.com/img/img38/8/7/6/f_arihornsm_63d28f9.jpg

http://www.psalm9416.com/bg_1205_club_diablo.jpg

http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/8052/abdullahsatansignuh2.jpg

http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/6594/tomridgesatansignma7.jpg

http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/5232/danquaylehornedsignsu3.jpg

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc4/newsouljah87/handsigns/3062959779jf8.jpg

No idea. There's not enough context to judge.

What's your hypothesis?

meglome

So just so I get this clear in my head, all the people supporting this conspiracy are saying they have never ever held their fingers even for a split second in such a way, accidentally without really noticing? Because I definitely have so I'm off to say a load of Hail Mary's to save my, obviously corrupted, soul. :rolleyes:

Most of the video and pictures have no context, they are just single frame captures. If people are photographed enough you can get any number of single frame captures to support quite a lot of things I imagine.

Kernel

meglome wrote: »

So just so I get this clear in my head, all the people supporting this conspiracy are saying they have never ever held their fingers even for a split second in such a way, accidentally without really noticing? Because I definitely have so I'm off to say a load of Hail Mary's to save my, obviously corrupted, soul. :rolleyes:

Most of the video and pictures have no context, they are just single frame captures. If people are photographed enough you can get any number of single frame captures to support quite a lot of things I imagine.

Congratulations, you've just stretched the 'coincidence' argument so far it has snapped.

meglome

Kernel wrote: »

Congratulations, you've just stretched the 'coincidence' argument so far it has snapped.

Without any context on most of the pictures all you've got is coincidence. I'm just pointing it out.

Run_to_da_hills

meglome wrote: »

I'm off to say a load of Hail Mary's to save my, obviously corrupted, soul. :rolleyes:

You wont save your corrupted soul by repeating a load of "Hail Marys" simply because you would be just repeating fruitless words to a dead body in a grave.

Kernel

meglome wrote: »

Without any context on most of the pictures all you've got is coincidence. I'm just pointing it out.

Well, you have the Texas Longhorn argument for Bush, which is at least more plausible than mere coincidence.