Impartial Revenue Commissioners

juuge

In the light of recent judgements or rather the lack of them by the revenue in the ‘bertie affair’ is it fair to assume that there are revenue laws for some and not others?
Since the beginning of this year the company where my Dad works has been asked practically on a daily basis to provide a ‘tax clearance certificate’ in order for his customers to continue doing business with his company. If he doesn’t provide a ‘tax cert’, his business closes, it’s as simple as that.
A different set of rules seems to apply to Bertie – why?
Am I mad to assume that the present hierarchy within the revenue commissioners would have been appointed by FF and perhaps a more lenient approach is being adopted by them towards the present government, and in particular 'bertie'?

IRLConor

juuge wrote: »

In the light of recent judgements or rather the lack of them by the revenue in the ‘bertie affair’ is it fair to assume that there are revenue laws for some and not others?

Aren't they withholding judgment until the tribunal is finished with him? Since the tribunal is quite political in nature they may be trying to avoid becoming involved in the political side of the problem. Regardless of what the tribunal does or does not reveal about Bertie's finances they can still hammer him afterwards if they have the evidence to do so.

juuge wrote: »

Since the beginning of this year the company where my Dad works has been asked practically on a daily basis to provide a ‘tax clearance certificate’ in order for his customers to continue doing business with his company. If he doesn’t provide a ‘tax cert’, his business closes, it’s as simple as that.

Are the customers asking? Or someone else? It would be a little odd for anyone to ask for a tax clearance certificate in my experience.

[EDIT]Apparently you need one for supplying government/state agencies, I've never supplied one of those. [/EDIT]

juuge wrote: »

Am I mad to assume that the present hierarchy within the revenue commissioners would have been appointed by FF and perhaps a more lenient approach is being adopted by them towards the present government, and in particular 'bertie'?

They'd be career civil servants, no? They're not political appointees. They're certainly aware of the political ramifications of any decisions they make and, being human, I'm sure they're susceptible to pressure if it were applied to them. On the other hand, there's just as likely to be Bertie-haters in the Revenue Commissioners as there would be Bertie-sympathizers.

jahalpin

Are your dads customers state bodies eg councils, govt. departments, schools etc.? All state bodies are required by law to have a tax clearance cert for each of their suppliers before they can pay them. The Tax Clearance Cert also has to be renewed every year.

I think that the certificate that politicians need is different to the normal one as the normal certificate issues that it can be used in all cases except for cases under the "ethics in public office act" or something similar.

parsi

Tax clearance certs are issued annually and if a company wants to do business with State organisations they have to be tax compliant.

So your fathers company has to be tax compliant if they want taxpayers money. Being asked every day for a copy of the cert (its only a copy he's sending out - he's not being asked to prove compliance on a daily basis) is a good sign as it means that the company must be getting new business each day...

Like most people I'm a PAYE worker. don't find it unreasonable that a company has to be tax complaint before they get public contracts.

One person being non-Tax compliant (or whatever) is not a valid excuse for other folk to be non-compliant (though it is a valid reason for complaining) or else nothing would ever get done...

juuge

jahalpin wrote: »

Are your dads customers state bodies eg councils, govt. departments, schools etc.?

Yes they are, mainly county councils, colleges and hospitals.

juuge

IRLConor wrote: »

They'd be career civil servants, no? They're not political appointees. They're certainly aware of the political ramifications of any decisions they make and, being human, I'm sure they're susceptible to pressure if it were applied to them.

I still believe that if (in bertie's eyes) a revenue official were to be co-operative in casting a lenient eye on his affairs it would go a long way in enhancing his/her prospects of advancement within the civil service.

IRLConor

juuge wrote: »

I still believe that if (in bertie's eyes) a revenue official were to be co-operative in casting a lenient eye on his affairs it would go a long way in enhancing his/her prospects of advancement within the civil service.

That would only happen if the people involved in his/her promotions were pro-Bertie. Possible, but not guaranteed. In fact, being openly lenient to Bertie could backfire quite badly if the revenue official's superiors were either anti-Bertie and/or viewed the leniency as corrupt behaviour.

My father is a civil servant (not in the Revenue Commissioners ) and he has had political masters who he has liked and ones he has disliked. I don't believe he would let his political views influence the way he works and certainly I could see him strongly disapproving of anyone who did.

juuge

IRLConor wrote: »

That would only happen if the people involved in his/her promotions were pro-Bertie. Possible, but not guaranteed. In fact, being openly lenient to Bertie could backfire quite badly if the revenue official's superiors were either anti-Bertie and/or viewed the leniency as corrupt behaviour.

My father is a civil servant (not in the Revenue Commissioners ) and he has had political masters who he has liked and ones he has disliked. I don't believe he would let his political views influence the way he works and certainly I could see him strongly disapproving of anyone who did.

I've no doubt there are honest and decent civil servants, however let's not forget the two separate investigations by the Gardai into Ray Burke's affairs that found no wrong-doing. The subsequent investigation by bertie's minister dermot ahern, who, along with his civil servants 'climed every tree' in north dublin and still could find nothing untoward in relations to burke's behaviour.
Forgive me for being sceptical.

IRLConor

juuge wrote: »

I've no doubt there are honest and decent civil servants, however let's not forget the two separate investigations by the Gardai into Ray Burke's affairs that found no wrong-doing. The subsequent investigation by bertie's minister dermot ahern, who, along with his civil servants 'climed every tree' in north dublin and still could find nothing untoward in relations to burke's behaviour.
Forgive me for being sceptical.

It's OK to be skeptical, I am too.

I don't know the details of the investigations into Ray Burke's affairs but I suspect that all the investigations did not find sufficient evidence to prosecute him with and that's why nothing happened. For better or for worse, it's the nature of our justice system to assume innocence unless proven otherwise. For all we know, the Garda investigations could have found plenty of dodgy dealings but failed to find any with the kind of evidence which would hold up in court.

Conspiracies within organisations like the civil service would be very hard to engineer. There are simply too many people who would get wind of it, it would leak pretty fast I imagine.

Hotblack Desiato

juuge wrote: »

I've no doubt there are honest and decent civil servants

You make them sound like a criminal underclass or something :rolleyes:

however let's not forget the two separate investigations by the Gardai into Ray Burke's affairs that found no wrong-doing.

The Gardai are not civil servants, and they probably did find some evidence, but not enough for the DPP to decide to prosecute. The standard of proof required in a criminal case is high.

The subsequent investigation by bertie's minister dermot ahern, who, along with his civil servants 'climed every tree' in north dublin and still could find nothing untoward in relations to burke's behaviour.

That wasn't civil servants either, it was an internal FF investigation.

Hotblack Desiato

juuge wrote: »

Am I mad to assume that the present hierarchy within the revenue commissioners would have been appointed by FF and perhaps a more lenient approach is being adopted by them towards the present government, and in particular 'bertie'?

That's funny. FF are claiming that the Revenue are being too harsh on poor Bertie.
And if you want to find a system of high-level appointments where the appointees are known to have certain political affiliations and the government of the day appoints 'their own', look no further than our judges...

juuge

ninja900 wrote: »

The Gardai are not civil servants, and they probably did find some evidence, but not enough for the DPP to decide to prosecute. The standard of proof required in a criminal case is high.

That wasn't civil servants either, it was an internal FF investigation.

Firstly...Senior Gardai ARE appointed by the minister of justice of the day.
Secondly...Dermot Ahern's investigation into wrong doing by ray burke was undertaken by civil servants at that time as it was a government decision to appoint burke as minister of foreign affairs even though clouds of suspicion were hanging over his head. So you conclude civil servants are somehow 'squeaky clean', as not all priests are child molesters, not all solicitors are crooked, not all bank managers are thieves......

Hotblack Desiato

juuge wrote: »

Firstly...Senior Gardai ARE appointed by the minister of justice of the day.

Yes. They're still not civil servants though.

Secondly...Dermot Ahern's investigation into wrong doing by ray burke was undertaken by civil servants at that time as it was a government decision to appoint burke as minister of foreign affairs even though clouds of suspicion were hanging over his head.

Government decision to appoint him - irrelevant. Civil servants do not investigate potential ministers for wrongdoing (maybe they should!) Do you have a cite that says otherwise? It was widely reported as an FF investigation, iirc.

So you conclude civil servants are somehow 'squeaky clean', as not all priests are child molesters, not all solicitors are crooked, not all bank managers are thieves......

Totally weak straw man argument. I didn't conclude anything, you are the one throwing allegations around, so please substantiate them.

stepbar

Ah, you see Bertie was smart. He made a pre payment of 70k. Paid his tax you see