Looking for roofing advice

danyosan

We already have planning but had overlooked one thing. The slope of our roof, which is 28 degrees.

Our planning states that it must be slates that are used.

My question is this, can natural slate be used without any problems at this slope?

Also, I've been looking into ecostar recycled rubber slates, does anyone have any experience of these? They seem to be a bit too good to be true. The one down side I can see from them, is if it is particularly windy, they may flap.

Any advice is more than welcome!

Cheers

roofer

28 degrees is within spec for slates. depends how exposed the area is. you may want to take some precautionary steps.
i cant say i have worked with those slates. if you think they may flap about you may want to stay away from with that pitch. i would say ask the manufacturer but they will tell you almost anything to sell the slates

Mellor

If the planning specifys slates, I'd stick to natural or FC slates, the rubber slates might be seen as tiles (even though named slates, its just a name)

danyosan

roofer wrote: »

28 degrees is within spec for slates. depends how exposed the area is.

It is quite an exposed site

roofer wrote:

you may want to take some precautionary steps.

Such as?

[/QUOTE]i cant say i have worked with those slates. if you think they may flap about you may want to stay away from with that pitch. i would say ask the manufacturer but they will tell you almost anything to sell the slates[/QUOTE]

Totally agree, thats why I'm checking to see if anyone has some impartial advice on the matter.

danyosan

Mellor wrote: »

If the planning specifys slates, I'd stick to natural or FC slates, the rubber slates might be seen as tiles (even though named slates, its just a name)

From what I've seen, albeit only promotional photos, I wouldnt have thought they could tell the difference unless they went up onto the roof.

I'm probably in the wrong in thinking that though.

Builderfromhell

MOst planning conditions simply state black slates or tiles in Tipp, Clare and Limerick. I wonder are you in a conservation area.
If push came to shove you might use profiled metal panels, with treated battens over and then slates. Any water penetration will run off. Roof will look normal.

danyosan

I'm in County Wicklow. It states in the planning that the roof should be blue/black slates.

sesswhat

There is a document here with tables from an English site.

Precautions are basically having more of an overlap (headlap) so the rain does not blow up under the slates. This means closer battens and more slates per square metre.

You should be able to get more specific information from the manufacturers brochures when you go to choose which tile you want.

I prefer the natural slate but it can be expensive.

hynso

28 degrees is no probs with slates. You should probably hook the slates as its an exposed site. Dont worry about the overlap as slates overlap by at least half there length. Try slatesdirect.ie. based in Kildare. Recently used a 20x10 spanish slate from them. Looked the business, really good slate and reasonably priced. Hope this is of help.

sesswhat

hynso wrote: »

Dont worry about the overlap as slates overlap by at least half there length.

Someone will have to worry about it because I've never seen a roof slate itself.

They do have to be made to overlap the slate below as you say by more than half their length, how much more is the important bit as this decides how much they overlap the next row below that.

Mellor

The roof is 28 deg pitch so head lap will be standard. There is no issue at all.

sesswhat

Mellor wrote: »

head lap will be standard

which is?

Siobhan12

How much does the thickness of the slate matter?
I'm being offered 20 x 10 5mm natural black slates at a good price, had been looking at slatesdirect - theirs are 7 - 9 mm other companies are up to 15mm - are they weaker or poorer if they are thinner?

Mellor

sesswhat wrote: »

which is?

Dependant on the slates selected. Thats two smart arsed posts from you in this thread. Try and be constructive.

sinnerboy

might be worth asking planning officer if a reconstituted slate will be acceptable a "slate" . these use actual slate in the mix , they are cast with "ribs" to give a side lap and can be installed way below 28 degrees ( as far as 20 I THINK - not in office so no ref tables here ) . If you think it's a runner I will PM trade name / product

sesswhat

Mellor wrote: »

Dependant on the slates selected. Thats two smart arsed posts from you in this thread. Try and be constructive.

The OP has probably lost interest at this stage but.... the original query was whether natural slate could be used at 28 degree pitch. He was quickly assured that indeed it could and I think everyone agrees on that.

That might have been the end of it as far as the pitch was concerned except the OP then asked for some elaboration on Roofer's comment about precautionary steps that might need to be taken, especially given that the proposed house is on an exposed site.

Two days later and no further information was forthcoming. Now, rightly or wrongly, I took the step of suggesting what one of those precautions might be which is to increase the headlap at the expense of a few extra slates.

To help illustrate this point I added a link to a document with some general information and tables which the OP may or may not have found helpful.

I also recommended the OP pay attention to the advice of the manufacturer when they came to making their final choice of slate as of course advice differs for each slate.

Now I welcome someone making a comment about a post, but

Dont worry about the overlap as slates overlap by at least half there length

I found to be meaningless, as if it requires no human input to determine what headlap is suitable for a given situation. Apologies therefore for reply which was a bit smart arsed I admit.

Then you add

The roof is 28 deg pitch so head lap will be standard. There is no issue at all.

Now this dismissal of the headlap as an issue may have been partially as a result of my previous smart arse comment, but anyone reading that would be forgiven for thinking there exists a single standard figure applying to a wide range of slates, roof pitches, and site exposures.

Either there is such a figure or there is not.

The factors to be taken into account in deciding the headlap include as you say, the size and type of slate, as well as the proportion of length to width, the exposure category of the site and the roof pitch. If short thick slates are used the true pitch of the slates themselves may be a further 3 degrees less than the roof pitch. Different headlaps are often used within the one roof. In fact deciding on the minimum figure to use is probably best left to the supplier as there would be little point going back to them with any problems if you did not follow their own minimum recommendations.

With this in mind I think it was reasonable to ask what ‘standard headlap’ was. The danger is that there are still roofers who have their own notion of a standard figure, often 3 inches, which they picked up as a 17 year old apprentice and have never strayed from since. Of course if they are supplying the slates themselves what’s to say this won’t be reduced to 2 inches to save a couple of hundred slates on a big job. For the OP the recommended figure may well be over 4 inches, so I say make it an issue and get up on that roof yourself with a tape if necessary.

Danyosan, I hope you get the roof you want and that it proves to be impervious to the worst wind-driven rain Wicklow can throw at it!

danyosan

Thanks for all the comments lads, loads of helpful information here.

I'm a bit dubious about going with natural slate tbh because we are using a German firm to build the house, and they are a bit apprehensive about installing slate (concrete tiles are their standard roof) since they would require specialist equipment, and I've heard from numerous sources that Irish workers tend to stay away from German builders as they use different methods and won't stand over the work later if any thing goes wrong.

Mellor

sesswhat wrote: »

Now this dismissal of the headlap as an issue may have been partially as a result of my previous smart arse comment, but anyone reading that would be forgiven for thinking there exists a single standard figure applying to a wide range of slates, roof pitches, and site exposures.

Either there is such a figure or there is not.

The factors to be taken into account in deciding the headlap include as you say, the size and type of slate, as well as the proportion of length to width, the exposure category of the site and the roof pitch. With this in mind I think it was reasonable to ask what ‘standard headlap’ was.

If somebody took my comment to think there was a standard head lap then Its safe to say that they known little about building and would be getting outside help anyway. The comment was quite clearly aimed at the fact that the OP asked if slate "could" be use at 28 degrees. He was repeatedly told it was ok, and head laps were posted by you. There was no need to worry further. It wasn't going to be an issue


I don't think it was reasonable to ask what standard headlap because you had already posted a document with head laps for different exposure and pitch. Of course those laps only apply to that product (I believe that do natural and fibre cement slates), and if teagral were used their own lap guides should of been used.
So you were quite aware that their is no standard lap, but a set od standards based of varying conditions, you were asking a question that served no purpose.

sesswhat

Mellor wrote: »

If somebody took my comment to think there was a standard head lap then Its safe to say that they known little about building and would be getting outside help anyway.

Maybe they come here to try to increase that knowledge. Maybe people should be allowed, or even encouraged to query any comment if it leads to clarification for everyone. Then, if they are getting outside help, they will be armed with a little bit more information.

Mellor

If somebody came to increase thier knowledge then their is no way they could think that their was a single headlap as it was clearly pointed out in previous posts.

The only way they could think their was is if they read a post or two in isolation. If they did this, and thats what they thought then it is safe to say that they are leaving the technical side to someone else to worry about as they have little knowledge to begin with or its not important to them at this time.

Its funny that you say increase their knowledge, your first post was very informative, but the following ones were either smart arsed, or an attempt to justify the comments. And none of them (exception to the first) were helpful to the thread in any way.

Slate

sesswhat wrote: »

Someone will have to worry about it because I've never seen a roof slate itself.

They do have to be made to overlap the slate below as you say by more than half their length, how much more is the important bit as this decides how much they overlap the next row below that.

If you want a good site on roofing queries try this one www.roofconsult.co.uk
Has articles for almost all queries.

For a good article on roof pitch & headlap and why its important http://www.roofconsult.co.uk/articles/tiling/tips62.htm

On the original query on ecostar its recommended installation as its an American or Canadian product is that it is to be laid down on plywood to meets is guarantee requirements. An Irish made one is athyecoslate and is suitable from 18 degree pitches and goes on standard battens.

danyosan

Slate wrote: »

If you want a good site on roofing queries try this one www.roofconsult.co.uk
Has articles for almost all queries.

For a good article on roof pitch & headlap and why its important http://www.roofconsult.co.uk/articles/tiling/tips62.htm

On the original query on ecostar its recommended installation as its an American or Canadian product is that it is to be laid down on plywood to meets is guarantee requirements. An Irish made one is athyecoslate and is suitable from 18 degree pitches and goes on standard battens.

And whats your opinion on these?

ircoha

FYI; lots of guidance on slates etc on http://www.tegral.com/Tegralbp/index.asp

Am not plugging Tegral, just they explain the various issues pretty well.

In passing I have just got some samples of the Tegral Melbourn slte, it is blue/black, man-made and works down to 15 degrees due to ridges in the headlap area to stop the water driving up the slope.

The down side is that they are c 3.5 euro a slate:(

roofer

sorry danyosan my broadband has been down .th bottom line is that if the manufacturer gaurantees the slate to a pitch lower than 28 degrees you are safe to use it .headlap should be 4 inches . 3 inches is the minimal lap. this is not rocket science as some people would have you believe. listen to your manufacturers and get a spec from them. work to religiously to this spec and your roof will be fully gauranteed by them. your roofer should be given a spec to work to.

danyosan

roofer wrote: »

sorry danyosan my broadband has been down .th bottom line is that if the manufacturer gaurantees the slate to a pitch lower than 28 degrees you are safe to use it .headlap should be 4 inches . 3 inches is the minimal lap. this is not rocket science as some people would have you believe. listen to your manufacturers and get a spec from them. work to religiously to this spec and your roof will be fully gauranteed by them. your roofer should be given a spec to work to.

Ok thats good to know. Have you any experience with these eco slates? Can't seem to get an opinion on them from anyone.

Mellor

I've never used them, so have no opinion on them. But check that they comply with your roof finish condition, I have a feeling they might not.

danyosan

Mellor wrote: »

I've never used them, so have no opinion on them. But check that they comply with your roof finish condition, I have a feeling they might not.

Will do. Our planning states that the roof finish can be discussed if required so hopefully they are not stuck on us using natural slate.

muffler

danyosan wrote: »

Will do. Our planning states that the roof finish can be discussed if required so hopefully they are not stuck on us using natural slate.

Just out of curiosity what was the exact wording of that condition?

Villain

If the planning states Blue/Black Slates then rubber slates are fine in Carlow and Kildare anyway. There is another company that do rubber slates in the north which have BBA certs http://www.goecotech.com/ is their site, I have sent them an email looking for prices but got no reply as yet.

I have seen Rubber slates on two houses and you would swear they were natural slate. The overlap on rubber slates needs to be more than standard slates especially in exposed areas as the rubber is flexible and the slates can and will "flap" I think the guy I spoke to at a self build said the baton's should be at 7" centres which would be a fair overlap so while the price of the slates aren't that high you will use quite a bit more. I'll let you know if I hear back.

danyosan

muffler wrote: »

Just out of curiosity what was the exact wording of that condition?

The roof finish shall be blue/black slate, unless another roof finish is agreed in writing by the Planning Authority.

danyosan

Villain wrote: »

If the planning states Blue/Black Slates then rubber slates are fine in Carlow and Kildare anyway. There is another company that do rubber slates in the north which have BBA certs http://www.goecotech.com/ is their site, I have sent them an email looking for prices but got no reply as yet.

I have seen Rubber slates on two houses and you would swear they were natural slate. The overlap on rubber slates needs to be more than standard slates especially in exposed areas as the rubber is flexible and the slates can and will "flap" I think the guy I spoke to at a self build said the baton's should be at 7" centres which would be a fair overlap so while the price of the slates aren't that high you will use quite a bit more. I'll let you know if I hear back.

Good man. Our builder had a meeting with them last week and he told us that he was impressed by them, and that they may sign an agreement with them for future houses. apparently there will be a slight vibration in VERY high winds, but in general they would function OK.

forgot to mention, it was the company you mentioned above that our builder met with.

muffler

danyosan wrote: »

The roof finish shall be blue/black slate, unless another roof finish is agreed in writing by the Planning Authority.

Thanks. The reason I ask is that in Donegal they just specify the colour but in fairness the materials would be specified on the plans so they are covered in any event.

Slate

danyosan wrote: »

Ok thats good to know. Have you any experience with these eco slates? Can't seem to get an opinion on them from anyone.

If you contact Athyecoslate yourself they will send you out a sample and a list of reference sites throughout the country that you can contact. Its made from a polypropylene plastic whereas the ecostar one is a polyethylene/rubber combo so thats why its spec sheet says its recommended to go down on plywood rather than battens. If its going down on battens it may need extra clips to hold it as it is more "flexible" than the athyecoslate one which is a harder plastic. Like I said best if you contact them direct and go see a site and ask the owners and get an opinion from the horses mouth

danyosan

Slate wrote: »

If you contact Athyecoslate yourself they will send you out a sample and a list of reference sites throughout the country that you can contact. Its made from a polypropylene plastic whereas the ecostar one is a polyethylene/rubber combo so thats why its spec sheet says its recommended to go down on plywood rather than battens. If its going down on battens it may need extra clips to hold it as it is more "flexible" than the athyecoslate one which is a harder plastic. Like I said best if you contact them direct and go see a site and ask the owners and get an opinion from the horses mouth

yeah, I'll be doing that anyway, just thought I might find a horse here that could tell me

Villain

EcoTech quote:

House:
Slate Midnight Gray 4750@€1.65 €7837.50
Hip & Ridge 24 bundles @€;25.00 600.00
Stainless Steel Ring Shank Nails 10 bx @ €30.00 300.00

Garage:
Slate Midnight Gray 1800@€1.65 €2970.00
Hip & Ridge 7 bundles @€;25.00 175.00
Stainless Steel Ring Shank Nails 4bx @ €30.00 120.00

Delivery 450.00
Subtotal €12452.00
Vat @ 17.5% 2179.10
Total €14631.10

Payment in full due prior to shipping. Please call with any questions or to discuss your project. We look forward to working with you

gally74

hello,

i looked at the eco slate on my friends roof the other day, they looks A1 and are fast to put on, the roof looks a1, and 50 year guarntee, i also know of one other house in our area with them for the past 2 years.