Rules question. Need answer to avoid impending violence.

Obni

1. You chip in from off the green, with the flag still in the hole.
2. You pull out the flag and the ball comes out with it.

Is the ball back in play?

Mister Sifter

Yes, i'm pretty sure it is.

f22

Yes, I think it is to be honest. On tv after a chip in the player will always appear extra careful removing the ball, and generally not the flag.

copacetic

it depends, if the ball was in the hole and below the level of the green then it is 'holed' and it doesn't matter if it comes out with the flag. If it wasn't then the ball is in play but must be placed on the lip. What you generally see is the player adjust the flag so the ball falls fully in the hole. It is then 'holed' and can safely be removed by hand.

rule 17-4

17-4. Ball Resting Against Flagstick
When the flagstick is in the hole and a player’s ball when not holed rests against it, the player or another person authorized by him may move or remove the flagstick, and if the ball falls into the hole, the player is deemed to have holed out with his last stroke; otherwise, the ball, if moved, must be placed on the lip of the hole, without penalty.

PhilipMarlowe

Yeah we had something about this earlier here...
Simply put, if it's inside the diameter of the hole and below the 'top' of the hole then, surprise surprise, it's in the hole. Technically the ball doesn't have to be on the bottom of the hole, just has to be below the top

Where you chip in to the hole and the ball rests against the flag and say is protruding half-in and half-out, then carefully remove the flag, making damn sure that the ball falls in instead of popping out


Interesting question relating to the rule, what happens if a fellow player removed the flag and the ball came out with it... that is, you didn't get the opportunity to remove the flag yourself (while making sure the ball falls in)?

ShriekingSheet

Licksy wrote: »

Interesting question relating to the rule, what happens if a fellow player removed the flag and the ball came out with it... that is, you didn't get the opportunity to remove the flag yourself (while making sure the ball falls in)?

I'd hazard a guess that that player would receive a penalty and the ball could actually be placed back in between the lip and the flag - but that's a guess

Sandwich

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

I'd hazard a guess that that player would receive a penalty and the ball could actually be placed back in between the lip and the flag - but that's a guess

Dont think thats correct.

AFAIK the ball is in play and its too bad for the player who didnt get his chance to get the ball into the hole without a further stroke. Nor is there any penalty for the player who moved the flag. Bad form/stupidity/gamesmanship if anyone were to do. I have seen the ball lodge like that several times and do remember playing partners stepping back to ensure the ball player was the one to move the flag.

The rule is quite clear. It just seems unjust in the intersting case put above. But then thats the case in many golfing situations.

What about this variation though:
If the ball didnt drop into the hole by a playing partner removing the flag, and that same playing partner, realising his faux pas and attempting to repair his error, were to tap the ball into the hole with the flag stick still in his hand and say 'oops'. Would the ball be considered holed out?

PhilipMarlowe

If a tree falls in the woods....
I think the mention of the 'player or other player authorized by him' in the rules would mean that the ball was not actually holed out,but would assume that no penalty would apply and the ball would be replaced

18.4
If a fellow-competitor, his caddie or his equipment moves the player’s ball, touches it or causes it to move, there is no penalty. If the ball is moved, it must be replaced.

Sandwich

No penalty for anyone agreed.

But are you suggesting the rules want you to be able to put the ball back, hanging over the hole, against the flagstick to enable the ball player to have a go at holing it by removing the flag? Or place it on the lip of the hole?

ShriekingSheet

Sandwich wrote: »

No penalty for anyone agreed.

But are you suggesting the rules want you to be able to put the ball back, hanging over the hole, against the flagstick to enable the ball player to have a go at holing it by removing the flag? Or place it on the lip of the hole?

Placing the ball back in the jaws is far-feched, granted - no idea of this is the case. But on my other point above, surely if another player moves your ball which has come to rest it isn't within the laws? Like, it's not an outside agency.

I'm not arguing with you that the rule is X or Y - I admittedly have no idea - I'm just saying surely it's not fair for an opponent to move your ball when it's come to rest.

I suggested the replacement idea in line with when the opponents ball strikes yours - you replace your ball.

I'm not even interested in what the rule is because as you say, a playing partner or opponent in a match would never touch a flag with your ball against it but it's an interesting chat.

PhilipMarlowe

Well, it may be far-fetched but.....

Lets agree that the ball, while in the jaws so to speak, is resting against the flag and not fully below the level of the green.
Ok, in this position, it is not actually holed so I guess it is in play and it would be reasonable to replace it in this position would it not?

Although the bit in the resting against flagstick rule that says

otherwise, the ball, if moved, must be placed on the lip of the hole, without penalty.

is confusing.... wtf is otherwise?
Ok I guess it means that the ball didn't fall in and not that the flag was taken out by someone not authorized....

Simpler solution to give yer man a bollicking or a 7 iron to the neck...

That's the trouble with the rules of golf - lots of them seem to be made for all the crazy solutions that you think could never happen.. until someday

Obni

Seem to be causing rather than settling arguments.

The ball in question was in the bottom of the cup and at rest, so it is deemed holed.
"Holed
A ball is “holed” when it is at rest within the circumference of the hole
and all of it is below the level of the lip of the hole."

The only time the rule about the flagstick is applicable is when the ball is partially in the hole, but not holed (Rule 17-4).
"When a player’s ball rests against the flagstick in the hole and the ball is
not holed,....."

So, by my interpretation the ball was holed and accidentally or intentionally removing it as the flag was pulled-out did not put it back in play.
Anyone disagree?


BTW new rule book can be found here http://www.randa.org/flash/rules/PDF/WEB_ROG_spreads.pdf

PhilipMarlowe

No argument there, if the ball was holed then it doesn't matter what was done to it.... we're only discussing the situation if it hadn't been holed, and a competitor yanked out the flag before you got a chance to wiggle it and let the ball drop

ShriekingSheet

Licksy wrote: »

No argument there, if the ball was holed then it doesn't matter what was done to it.... we're only discussing the situation if it hadn't been holed, and a competitor yanked out the flag before you got a chance to wiggle it and let the ball drop

Imagine someone actually did that to you in a match

The rule should be that if they yank the flag out, knocking your ball away, they should have to play the next 2 holes whilst on fire.

ShriekingSheet

Licksy wrote: »

No argument there, if the ball was holed then it doesn't matter what was done to it.... we're only discussing the situation if it hadn't been holed, and a competitor yanked out the flag before you got a chance to wiggle it and let the ball drop

Imagine someone actually did that to you in a match

The rule should be that if they yank the flag out, knocking your ball away, they should have to play the next 2 holes whilst on fire.

stockdam

If the ball is holed then as most have said then that's the end of it.

If the ball is resting against the stick and not fully under the top of the hole and then if anyone else moves the stick and causes the ball to come out then the player is entitled to put the ball (and the stick) back to where it was and then remove the stick themself.

copacetic

stockdam wrote: »

If the ball is holed then as most have said then that's the end of it.

If the ball is resting against the stick and not fully under the top of the hole and then if anyone else moves the stick and causes the ball to come out then the player is entitled to put the ball (and the stick) back to where it was and then remove the stick themself.

don't think that is right at all, do you have a rule to back it up? There is at least a difference if the 'someone else' is a partner/caddy as opposed to opponent.

stockdam

Extracted from rules......

17-4. Ball Resting Against Flagstick
When the flagstick is in the hole and a player’s ball when not
holed rests against it, the player or another person authorised
by him may move or remove the flagstick and if the ball falls
into the hole, the player is deemed to have holed out with his
last stroke; otherwise, the ball, if moved, must be placed on the
lip of the hole, without penalty

This rule is for somebody who is authorised to touch the flag. If the ball falls in then it's deemed to have been holed during the last stroke. If the ball moves but does not fall in (it could fly off the green in an extreme example) then the ball must be placed on the lip of the hole. Note that this is for the player, partner or caddy (or somebody authorised by the player to remove the stick).

Yes I should have made it clear that the partner or caddy can remove the stick (I was thinking of singles without a caddy) and if it falls in then it's ok; if it moves and doesn't fall in then it is placed on the lip.


For the opponent or opponent's caddy .....



In strokeplay......


18-4. By Fellow-Competitor, Caddie or Equipment in
Stroke Play
If a fellow-competitor, his caddie or his equipment moves
the player’s ball, touches it or causes it to move, there is
no penalty. If the ball is moved, it must be replaced.



In Matchplay........

Rule 18-3 B
If, other than during search for a player’s ball, an opponent,
his caddie or his equipment moves the ball, touches it
purposely or causes it to move, except as otherwise provided
in the Rules, the opponent incurs a penalty of one stroke. If the
ball is moved, it must be replaced.

So in my view if another player etc. moves the ball when removing the flagstick and they weren't asked to do so then the player may replace the ball where it was without penalty. Note that the penalty of one stroke in matchplay is harsh if the opponent believed that the ball was holed.

I would then say that the player can replace the ball against the stick and then move the stick and if the ball falls in then it is deemed to have been holed.



For anyone else or animals etc....

18-1. By Outside Agency
If a ball at rest is moved by an outside agency, there is no
penalty and the ball must be replaced.

Lastly if it is knocked away by another ball......

18-5. By Another Ball
If a ball in play and at rest is moved by another ball in motion
after a stroke, the moved ball must be replaced.

That's my interpretation.

copacetic

That seems right, but it should be clear to everyone now that it is a big difference depending on whether this person is playing with you/caddying for you, or not.

stockdam

Sorry it's hard to cover every possibilty without going into lots of words. I wasn't thinking about caddy's nor partners cos that's not the norm (well I'm not rich enough to have a caddy)