Shimano Groupsets

TinyExplosions

Ok.. another 'discussion' type question...

From what I can tell on groupsets, the following are true:
Shimano Road, quality from the top down: Dura Ace, Ultegra, 105
Campy, again from top down: Record Carbon, Record, Veloce

Now, first question is which manufacturers come with Campy as standard? Giant, Specialized etc all seem to come with Shimano.

Finally, how much extra is it worth to get a Dura Ace or Ultegra... it seems that the best price/performance is had with the 105, or is this a fallacy simply because the 'big brands' are skewing the market?

Any thoughts greatly received, as I'm slowly building up to getting a road bike -it'll be a few months off, but you can never do too much research!

Morgan

Campagnolo groupsets go.
Record, Chorus, Centaur, Veloce, Mirage, Xenon,

Just to add to the fun, SRAM groupsets are:
Red, Force, Rival

As to whether it's worth it - sure, if you can afford it.

Raam

I guess simple chaps like ourselves probably don't see much difference between, say Ultegra and 105, or possibely Dura Ace and Ultegra. I have 105 on mine, it works great. My next bike will probably have Dura Ace. Why? Because I know it exists. I know it's not going to make me any better, but once you get hooked, you get totally hooked. Before I got into bikes I had no idea that I would some day want Dura Ace, but now that I've caught the bug I feel compelled to spend 500 Euro on a groupset.

penexpers

Where can you get Dura Ace for 500?

Raam

penexpers wrote: »

Where can you get Dura Ace for 500?

oops, that should, of course, be 900

niceonetom

Raam wrote: »

oops, that should, of course, be 900

this is why cycling is a sickness.
to me €900 euro used to be a fantastically extravagant amount of money to spend on a complete bike. then it became a lot to spend on a groupset, or a frame. then it seems like a bargain wheelset. in a couple of years i'll probably consider it reasonable to spend on a stem (a very high-tech stem though, made out of unobtainium and unicorn-fibre). the really sad thing is i'll claim to be able to tell the difference.

Quigs Snr

I think with the Shimano stuff. 2200, Sora and Tiagra is so awful its not worth considering if you are doing this as a sport. Although I have seen Tiagra tuned enough to be functional and heard mythical tales of the same with Sora, although never witnessed it first hand.

105 and Ultegra have so little between them in terms of cost these days I think you would be nuts not to go for Ultegra SL. Almost as light as Dura-Ace, fancy dark color, Lighter than standard Ultegra. Great Performance. 105 is decent also. Dura Ace works well (I have it on both my race bikes), but Ultegra works just as well for a lot less. Buy what you can afford.

I rode a Record Carbon equipped bike on holidays recently. Very nice also. But Dura Ace works just as well for less money, the campag thing is a personal choice. I love it, but would only shell out the extra to put it on a Pinarello, Bianchi, Colnago or De Rosa. Anything else on those Italian Stallions would be heresy. That being said, the Sram bottom of the range Rival is a lot lighter than Ultegra I hear............. I'd still go Shimano or Campy though.... replacement parts much easier to come by I'd imagine. Plus I don't know in a race situation how easy it would be to pull a wheel from the neutral service vehicle if your own car was too far away with an Sram system on it, tough enough with Campy. Unless of course the Sram cassette is Shimano compatible !

I think best bang for buck is Ultegra SL, although I would buy Dura Ace every time for 2 reasons. 1. I am a snob and 2. I can currently afford to be one. Undoubtably the way the economy is going that will change and pretty soon I will be over the moon with 5 year old 105's.....

trek climber

Shimano Dura-Ace , Campagnolo Record , Sram Force.
All three groupesets are way out of my budget but in terms of cost which would be the most expensive and would that necessarily mean it would be the best ?

Hungrycol

I personally wouldn't buy Dura-Ace because.... I simply can't afford it! I could just about stretch to Ultegra but went for the silver gruppo cos I got a good deal on it and given the difference is only a few grammes between it and the new SL, I think I'll take a p*ss before I go for a cycle and save myself the money! There's talk on the street that the new SL doen't wear well i.e. scratches easily and doesn’t look great after a while, looks sexy new though. Only time will tell.

105 is supposed perfectly adequate for the sports cyclist although I have Tiagra on my winter bike and it performs surprisingly quite well. Don't entertain Sora but I think there's even something called Shimano 2200 which is below Sora but I'm not sure.

Dura Ace I believe should be left to the Pro's. They are after all the few who can afford it and any replacement parts, except Quigs Snr. Quigs are you going to get the new carbon Durace chainset when it's out?

Campag should be left to adorn Italian frames but that said put it on whatever bike your want. Whatever you do don't ask which is better, BIG can o'worms. A lot of the Campag fraternity like the cabeless view form the brakes calling the cables from the Shimano breaks "washing lines", guffaw guffaw. But ultimately it's all down to taste.

SRAM is the new kid on the block and it is compliant with Shimano. An American group that are slowly getting their share of the market and with a lot of American bikes in the pro circuit, Specialised, Connondale, Giant, etc it won't be long before they put a bigger squeeze Campag and Shimano share in the coming years. SRAM Red was only released in the last few months in the similar class to Dura Ace and Record. So far it's getting very good feedback.

penexpers

It seems like there is only ~=100 euro difference between 105 and Ultegra SL these days. I went for the 105 because it's all my budget would allow - plus the silver will go better with my colour of frame

Quigs Snr

Hey HungryCol, No way am I shelling out 800 bucks for a Dura Ace Carbon Crankset (its available in some places already). I will stick to FSA carbon cranks for now, for about one fifth of the price on chainreactioncycles. They should nicely match the Cervelo I am hoping to pick up soon (CSC rode FSA cranks on their Cervelo's in the tour). Seriously 800 euro for a crankset, Shimano must be out of their minds.

On my new build I will be using a mix of old and new Dura Ace. 10speed shifters, cassettes and deraileurs, with 9speed brake calipers and FSA cranks. Works a treat. To save 4 or 5 grams I see no need to upgrade my 9 speed dura ace7700 calipers to the newer models. I already have the 7800 brake pads, which are admittedly better, but they are fully compatible with the older brakes.

Regarding Shimano vs Campy... ho ho, lives have been lost over that one. Its up there with VHS vs Betamax, HDDVD vs BlueRay, PC vs Linux vs Mac, Xbox vs Playstation etc... In other words its all good. Choose the one you prefer. Campy tends to be more expensive and in my opinion better looking. Just for racing purposes in this country, if you don't have shimano 10 speed on your bike and you flat in a race, its race over unless your team car is right behind you with your wheel ready. Neutral service usually have mostly shimano....

blorg

I got the impression from reviews when it came out that Force was seen as competitive with Dura-Ace, Rival with Ultegra. Notable IIRC was that the only difference between the two was weight, that they were mechanically identical. Red came out the next year and sits above both.

Chips Lovell

TinyExplosions wrote: »

Now, first question is which manufacturers come with Campy as standard? Giant, Specialized etc all seem to come with Shimano.

The big US and Asian bike firms tend to go with Shimano components and that's what's usually sold here, Trek, Giant etc. You'd see more Campagnolo on Italian bikes, but there aren't that many shops selling them here. Walk into a bike shop in Spain though and its much more like 50:50.

Quigs Snr wrote: »

I think with the Shimano stuff. 2200, Sora and Tiagra is so awful its not worth considering if you are doing this as a sport. Although I have seen Tiagra tuned enough to be functional and heard mythical tales of the same with Sora, although never witnessed it first hand.

It's a shame that more of the budget Campagnolo stuff doesn't appear here. I'd take Xenon over Sora any day.

Quigs Snr wrote: »

Plus I don't know in a race situation how easy it would be to pull a wheel from the neutral service vehicle if your own car was too far away with an Sram system on it, tough enough with Campy. Unless of course the Sram cassette is Shimano compatible !

I believe it is, although I can't find a link now to back that up. Incidentally, you can use a 10 speed Campagnolo hub and block with Shimano. The spacing is almost the same. Never tried the other way around though.

Quigs Snr wrote: »

No way am I shelling out 800 bucks for a Dura Ace Carbon Crankset (its available in some places already).

Especially when you can get Record Cranks now for €335 at Chain Reaction, an offer I found too good to turn down.

Quigs Snr

Interesting. Would the record cranks work on Shimano ? I expect they would. I know it works the other way round.

A good point was made earlier that we don't see the lower end Campy stuff and I would second that. The Xenon/Veloce entry level groups, are great. The Shimano Soras of this world feel flimsy to me, I do recall being terrified of trying to shift gear on a tough uphill chase on my old trek 1000... However I have ridden the cheap campy stuff on rental bikes and it works superbly well. +1 for campy entry level gear on entry level bikes.

Regarding DuraAce being for the pro's. The pro's should be so lucky. The Irish team had some bikes stolen in the RAS recently and those bikes were Ultegra equipped, whilst at the same time of the 35 or so roadies of various ability in my club at least 25 would have Dura Ace or Record ! I think half the time the amateurs have better gear than the pro's. My own race bike is so light I would have to strap lead weights to it to be allowed to ride the tour.

I tell you what though... I hear that SRAM Rival stuff is Dura Ace weight and the Force and Red are even better (although the Red is getting some stick for its crankset). To be honest with you I think half the cyclists you see on the road anywhere you go are more interested in the bikes themselves than the cycling.... Nothing wrong with that. Better than spending your cash down the pub I reckon !

Chips Lovell

Quigs Snr wrote: »

Interesting. Would the record cranks work on Shimano ? I expect they would. I know it works the other way round.

They should, yes. Cranks are group agnostic, thank god.

I was going to hold off on them for a few months, but that price was too good to pass up. Only stuck them on on Sunday so haven't had much of a chance to ride with them yet. They are unbelievably light though.

Quigs Snr wrote: »

I hear that SRAM Rival stuff is Dura Ace weight and the Force and Red are even better (although the Red is getting some stick for its crankset). To be honest with you I think half the cyclists you see on the road anywhere you go are more interested in the bikes themselves than the cycling.... Nothing wrong with that. Better than spending your cash down the pub I reckon !

Rival looks like great value and could be a real contender if more people cotton on to it. Haven't ridden it, but it's getting great write ups. It will be interesting to see if SRAM launches a budget group to challenge Sora/Tiagra. Might make a good alternative, but they might have a hard time eating into Shimano's market share. I'd say they sell so much of the lower end stuff they can practically give it away to manufacturers.

Anyway, spending silly money on my bike just makes me want to ride more, which can't be a bad thing.

copacetic

Quigs Snr wrote: »

I think with the Shimano stuff. 2200, Sora and Tiagra is so awful its not worth considering if you are doing this as a sport. Although I have seen Tiagra tuned enough to be functional and heard mythical tales of the same with Sora, although never witnessed it first hand.

1. I am a snob

Complete rubbish apart from the snob bit. My older bike has Tiagra and it has worked absolutely perfectly for 4 years. I've loaned it to friends for races in emergencies and they competed as well as the did on their bikes with dura ace.

My current bike has Ultegra, it's nicer and smoother but it makes little real difference. The biggest difference is the comfort of the hoods.

Quigs Snr

Well no, not complete rubbish at all. I explicity said that I have seen Tiagra tuned to the point of being functional and apparently you agree with me, I have seen a Tiagra equipped bike take several race wins in the B category this year, however that rider is now upgrading to Ultegra SL and would go Dura Ace if the budget allowed. Even Shimano market it towards the recreational rider, and the keyword there is marketing of course so that might not mean anything.

From 105 up, there is better interchangeability with parts. Cranksets come in a more race friendly 53/39 (Ultegra Up) as opposed 52/38 usually seen on Tiagra and even I think 105. Gear shifts under pressure are noticeably more reliable in my experience and less likely to throw your chain to the road and your testicles to the crossbar. Bitter experience here with Sora....! Nonetheless I bought my better half a Sora equipped bike because for the little she does, a few triathlons etc... its perfect.

I guess its all down to what you prefer yourself. Ironically I prefer the comfort of the Tiagra Hoods to my Dura Ace, so funny you say that, just goes to show, you'll never keep everyone happy. I also like hills, so the weight of Dura Ace although about the equivalent saving of a solid dump, counts for me.

Besides, are you really going to buy a Cervelo R3, Trek Madone, Pinarello Paris or some sort of bike that that and put Tiagra on it ? No chance man. You set your budget and get the best you can afford or want to spend.

By the way, here I am banging on about Shimano and owning 2 sets of Dura Ace, but the fact is that if Money were no object I would go for a full Campag Record Carbon Groupset (With either the Skeleton brakes or swap em out for zero or negative G's). Stick on a set of Campy Bora wheels and I wouldn't be upgrading for many, many years to come !

Either way, my aforementioned clubmate is proof positive that the man is what makes the difference, not the bike. A better bike and a slightly better groupset makes a little difference to a very good rider like that. But a good bike doesn't really make a bad rider any better in my opinion.

Chips Lovell

Quigs Snr wrote: »

...or swap em out for zero or negative G's....

I went for the Negative G's too. Still waiting for delivery but looking forward to seeing if they live up to the write ups.

DJMidnight

Recently bought a Willier road bike equipped with 105's, so I found this discussion quite interesting, insofar as I now understand where the 105's come in the pecking order. You should learn something new every day!!

billyhead

On another topic related to this how often should you think about replacing your current groupset or do you ever need to. I have 105 on mycurrent bike. I have used it for an average of 170km a week since I got it in July last year. Does it have a certain lifespan or does it just depend on how well it has been looked after ie. lubed,oiled, keft out of the rain etc etc.

Inquitus

billyhead wrote: »

On another topic related to this how often should you think about replacing your current groupset or do you ever need to. I have 105 on mycurrent bike. I have used it for an average of 170km a week since I got it in July last year. Does it have a certain lifespan or does it just depend on how well it has been looked after ie. lubed,oiled, keft out of the rain etc etc.

I have over 10000km on my Felt and everything works grand, the BB may be on its way out, but that's about it.

cdaly_

OTOH, I'm on my 3rd or 4th rear mech and my second front one in about 5 years.

fondriest

I will be committing the biggest of all cycling crimes over the winter . I'll be putting Sram red on an Italian frame .

happytramp

DJMidnight wrote: »

Recently bought a Willier road bike equipped with 105's, so I found this discussion quite interesting, insofar as I now understand where the 105's come in the pecking order. You should learn something new every day!!

It might be worth getting an updated list. A lot has changed in the last five years. We now have electronic shifting, 11sp groupsets are commonplace, carbon frames are now within the reach of mere mortals, most of us own hover bikes etc

Seweryn

fondriest wrote: »

I will be committing the biggest of all cycling crimes over the winter . I'll be putting Sram red on an Italian frame .

Still better than my old steel Italian bike, which has all Shimano components. From factory.

Brian?

billyhead wrote: »

On another topic related to this how often should you think about replacing your current groupset or do you ever need to. I have 105 on mycurrent bike. I have used it for an average of 170km a week since I got it in July last year. Does it have a certain lifespan or does it just depend on how well it has been looked after ie. lubed,oiled, keft out of the rain etc etc.

It's more about changing the right bits. Keep an eye on your chain for stretch, your cassette and chainrings for wear.

Park tools do a chain stretch tool that you can check your chain stretch with. If you haven't changed your chain in 9000km since last July. It's definitly worth checkin.

http://www.parktool.com/product/chain-wear-indicator-CC-3-2