John Hogan

Dun laoire · 24-01-2008 9:48am #1

Anybody have any sympathy for this man?

6th · 24-01-2008 9:49am

Ah right, yes I have sympathy for him but I can well understand his wifes reaction. Alot of craziness going around!

the dee · 24-01-2008 9:52am

Who?

24-01-2008 9:53am

Its the guy that jumped over a balcony in Crete with his two kids. Killing his son & breaking his & his daughters arms & legs after a fight with the mrs.

No, I dont have any sympathy whatsoever. He was probably ****ed off his head on drink/drugs or a comb of both.

Heisenberg. · 24-01-2008 9:54am

This post has been deleted.

Dun laoire · 24-01-2008 9:55am

6th wrote: »

Ah right, yes I have sympathy for him but I can well understand his wifes reaction. Alot of craziness going around!

He's the guy who completely lost it on holiday last year. He jumped the balcony with his children killing his boy.
He has been cleared of murder and attempted murder. Just a moment of complete insanity.

6th · 24-01-2008 9:55am

Ok so he did it after a fight with the missus, thats anger not crazy. Seems all you have to do is do something uncharacteristic and on the spur of the moment to get away with it.

Ruu could go slap a nun right now and get away with it.

steps_3314 · 24-01-2008 9:55am

I think the decision of not guilty was the right one. This guy did not plan to kill his kid. It was a stupid/mad moment that he has to live with for the rest of his life. He is full of remorse and it will never leave him. He is now getting mental help and probably will for a long time to come.

Feel sorry for family as a whole especially wife and daughter.

Dyr · 24-01-2008 9:57am

I say we shoot him in the face

24-01-2008 10:03am

steps_3314 wrote: »

I think the decision of not guilty was the right one. This guy did not plan to kill his kid. It was a stupid/mad moment that he has to live with for the rest of his life. He is full of remorse and it will never leave him. He is now getting mental help and probably will for a long time to come.

Feel sorry for family as a whole especially wife and daughter.

Im sorry but so many people on here are so soft when it comes to murder issues or ''accidental'' death. Ok this man regrets what he did obviously BUT we all lose our temper and 99% of us do not go killing people because of it!

He has to deal with the consequences of his decisions & should of got a sentence. Things like this & the O' Donoghue case are a bad example because it shows people that they can get off lightly IMO.

Kur4mA · 24-01-2008 10:13am

Death by balcony I say. Keep throwing him off one until he just dies. I saw him on the news hobbling around and I hope he is in a lot of pain and is ****ed up for the rest of his life. The man is a murderer imo and the verdict given was BS. HE THREW HIS KID OFF A BALCONY FFS AND THEN JUMPED OFF WITH THE OTHER ONE!

yaynay · 24-01-2008 10:16am

The Scientist wrote: »

Theres no excuse for shooting a man dead while he played a game of football.

HUH

biko · 24-01-2008 10:18am

yaynay wrote: »

HUH

Website http://johnhogan.net/

yaynay · 24-01-2008 10:31am

I know who John Hogan is, was confussed with The Scientist' comment about shooting a man dead whilst playing football.

6th · 24-01-2008 10:33am

I reckon he was possessed.

ScumLord · 24-01-2008 10:34am

Shouldn't have got off scot free killing someone should always result in some jail time accident or not.

What was his defence, did he think he was only jumping into the pool and his kids where floatation devices?

Baudelaire · 24-01-2008 10:36am

steps_3314 wrote: »

I think the decision of not guilty was the right one. This guy did not plan to kill his kid. It was a stupid/mad moment that he has to live with for the rest of his life. He is full of remorse and it will never leave him. He is now getting mental help and probably will for a long time to come.

Feel sorry for family as a whole especially wife and daughter.

Ignorance of the consequences of his actions is no excuse, he killed his kid, he should have been punished IMO

AckwelFoley · 24-01-2008 10:39am

Loved him in Crocodile Dundee.

AckwelFoley · 24-01-2008 10:40am

Bambi wrote: »

I say we shoot him in the face

Bukake team?

Im in.

loyatemu · 24-01-2008 10:42am

he was seriously clinically depressed - both his brothers had previously committed suicide. The prosecution and the defence both agreed with the verdict - it may have been a moment of madness but it was sparked by the serious mental problems he was (and still is by the sounds of things) having. He won't be walking the streets anytime soon.

Very similar case to the psychologist woman who drowned her daughter in Carlow and was found not guilty but insane last week.

AckwelFoley · 24-01-2008 10:45am

he was seriously clinically depressed - both his brothers had previously committed suicide.

As someone myself, that suffers from Manic Depression, killing his kids is difficult to understand.

Of course the first question the medical professionals will always ask a clinically depressed person..

"so, any thoughts of harming yourself or others today?"

No, doc.. just me.

steps_3314 · 24-01-2008 11:38am

Fair point but when you say "it shows people that they can get off lightly IMO"

Then the person has to think about commiting a crime (if he thinks he'll get off lightly) like this and obviously then would deserve to be sent down for a long time.

Good point though...serious case of losing the rag.

My point is this guy never meant this to happen but he just lost it totally.

KaG1888 wrote: »

Im sorry but so many people on here are so soft when it comes to murder issues or ''accidental'' death. Ok this man regrets what he did obviously BUT we all lose our temper and 99% of us do not go killing people because of it!

He has to deal with the consequences of his decisions & should of got a sentence. Things like this & the O' Donoghue case are a bad example because it shows people that they can get off lightly IMO.

Ruu_Old · 24-01-2008 11:41am

6th wrote: »

Ok so he did it after a fight with the missus, thats anger not crazy. Seems all you have to do is do something uncharacteristic and on the spur of the moment to get away with it.

Ruu could go slap a nun right now and get away with it.

She was a naughty little minx! :eek:

24-01-2008 11:53am

steps_3314 wrote: »

Fair point but when you say "it shows people that they can get off lightly IMO"

Then the person has to think about commiting a crime (if he thinks he'll get off lightly) like this and obviously then would deserve to be sent down for a long time.

Good point though...serious case of losing the rag.

My point is this guy never meant this to happen but he just lost it totally.

I know, I didn't mean to be harsh. But what im trying to say is that when people get off crimes so lightly for doing something that they were totally responsible for it shows true scum that they can get away lightly with crimes.

This guy killed his son, it doesn't matter if it was in a fit of rage. He still did it and has to suffer the consequences even if he totally regrets it.

24-01-2008 11:56am

Ruu wrote: »

She was a naughty little minx! :eek:

Not as naughty as these wild things !

:)

http://www.dvorak.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/nuns.jpg

Dudess · 24-01-2008 11:58am

loyatemu wrote: »

he was seriously clinically depressed - both his brothers had previously committed suicide. The prosecution and the defence both agreed with the verdict - it may have been a moment of madness but it was sparked by the serious mental problems he was (and still is by the sounds of things) having. He won't be walking the streets anytime soon.

Very similar case to the psychologist woman who drowned her daughter in Carlow and was found not guilty but insane last week.

And he had a history of mental illness. If people were more understanding of such individuals it might be easier for them to get help, and such horrific tragedies might be avoidable, but judging by some of the comments on this thread, that's not the case. It seems we still have quite a way to go before mental illness is completely destigmatised, and before people's ignorance is replaced by knowledge and understanding.

Dyr · 24-01-2008 12:11pm

Its not the stigma of mental illness it's the fairly big stigma of killing your own offspring and then walking away from it. If the c**t had an ounce of worth or shame he'd have the decency to finish the job off.

ScumLord · 24-01-2008 12:14pm

Dudess wrote: »

And he had a history of mental illness. If people were more understanding of such individuals it might be easier for them to get help, and such horrific tragedies might be avoidable, but judging by some of the comments on this thread, that's not the case. It seems we still have quite a way to go before mental illness is completely destigmatised, and before people's ignorance is replaced by knowledge and understanding.

Maybe he could have been locked up at an earlier date, which is the bottom line here. If he's capable of killing his own fleash and blood over an arguement then he needs to be locked up for the safety of others. Some people seem to think being drunk or high or in a bad mood means they get away with anything they want.

Dudess · 24-01-2008 12:16pm

ScumLord wrote: »

Some people seem to think being drunk or high or in a bad mood means they get away with anything they want.

Well those people are being ridiculous, but anyway that's not applicable here because mental illness couldn't be further from any of the scenarios you've just described.

Bambi, the stigma leads to ignorance, misunderstanding and a lack of compassion, which your post has just demonstrated. Can you not fathom that a person can literally lose their mind temporarily? There's no point in speculating as to whether he had "shame" or not, his mental state obviously didn't allow for it. Similar to that woman in Carlow. She tried to kill herself, as did he.

Dyr · 24-01-2008 1:08pm

I've enough mentalists in me family not be stigmatising anyone for it. Fact is that the c**t killed his child. Even if he was as mad as a hatter when he did it is irrelevent, apparently he isnt mental now and he claims to be filled with remorse. It seems not enough remorse to go and top himself though. Im fairly old testament on this like, you'd want to be foaming at the mouth and bouncing off walls before madness becomes a valid excuse for killing your kids.

Dudess · 24-01-2008 5:21pm

You obviously don't have a sufficient understanding of mental illness so.

6th · 24-01-2008 5:23pm

I'm with Bambi on this, speaking as a father of 2.

MrJoeSoap · 24-01-2008 5:26pm

As opposed to the psychiatrist in Kilkenny whose case was heard last week (and whose name completely escapes me), for whom I have complete sympathy, I really don't feel the same way about this.

I don't think the sentence was wrong, but I still think there is a massive difference between the two cases and one was mental illness and the other was a sudden act of madness.

MrJoeSoap · 24-01-2008 5:30pm

Bambi wrote: »

you'd want to be foaming at the mouth and bouncing off walls before madness becomes a valid excuse for killing your kids.

What about the case in Kilkenny that was before the courts last week where a well-respected psychiatrist killed her daughter, whom she thought had an eating disorder? Her own mother had killed herself previously, she had attempted suicide and had suffered from eating disorders herself from a relatively early age. Surely insanity here is a "valid excuse", as you put it, not that it in any way, shape or form represents an excuse.

ScumLord · 24-01-2008 6:02pm

MrJoeSoap wrote: »

As opposed to the psychiatrist in Kilkenny whose case was heard last week (and whose name completely escapes me), for whom I have complete sympathy,

I don't know a psychiatrist fully educated in mental disorders, use's a mental disorder as her defense.

PeakOutput · 24-01-2008 6:07pm

at the very least he should be serving a sentence in a guarded psychiatric unit just like that woman who drowned her daughter should be. and "getting mental help" dosnt cut it for me there must be some form of imprisonment(for want of a better word tbh)

edit;

Surely insanity here is a "valid excuse", as you put it, not that it in any way, shape or form represents an excuse.

its a reason alright but not an excuse that completely absolves you of any responsibility. especially this notion of temporary insanity. you have walked around your whole life knowing the difference between right and wrong and all of a sudden for ten mins you switch of all emotion and reason and kill someone then it gets switched back on. the human brain is an amazingly powerfull thing so i dont doubt its possible i just dont think you should "get off" becuase of it

MrJoeSoap · 24-01-2008 6:08pm

ScumLord wrote: »

I don't know a psychiatrist fully educated in mental disorders, use's a mental disorder as her defense.

Yeah definitely something wrong there. I take it you have in-depth knowledge of the case?

Dudess · 24-01-2008 6:50pm

MrJoeSoap wrote: »

As opposed to the psychiatrist in Kilkenny whose case was heard last week (and whose name completely escapes me), for whom I have complete sympathy, I really don't feel the same way about this.

I don't think the sentence was wrong, but I still think there is a massive difference between the two cases and one was mental illness and the other was a sudden act of madness.

Both were because of mental illness. Hogan had a history of it, just like that woman.

MrJoeSoap wrote: »

...a well-respected psychiatrist killed her daughter, whom she thought had an eating disorder? Her own mother had killed herself previously, she had attempted suicide and had suffered from eating disorders herself from a relatively early age. Surely insanity here is a "valid excuse", as you put it, not that it in any way, shape or form represents an excuse.

Well Hogan's brothers killed themselves - actually two very similar cases it would seem.

ScumLord wrote: »

I don't know a psychiatrist fully educated in mental disorders, use's a mental disorder as her defense.

So if you don't know any, none must exist?

PeakOutput wrote: »

at the very least he should be serving a sentence in a guarded psychiatric unit just like that woman who drowned her daughter should be.

Agreed. That woman is a patient in the Central Mental Hospital btw.

and "getting mental help" dosnt cut it for me there must be some form of imprisonment(for want of a better word tbh)

A psychiatric hospital is one hell of a punishment by all accounts.

its a reason alright but not an excuse that completely absolves you of any responsibility.

I agree.

especially this notion of temporary insanity. you have walked around your whole life knowing the difference between right and wrong and all of a sudden for ten mins you switch of all emotion and reason and kill someone then it gets switched back on.

I disagree. You don't "switch off all emotion" yourself - you don't have control over these episodes.

There is far more understanding when there are similar cases like that but with women as the perpetrators. I think Hogan is on the receiving end of so much condemnation simply because of his gender.
He is being portrayed as a cruel, malicious, heartless person who set out to murder his children. Unfortunately there are evil people like that, but he is not one of them and it's wrong to compare him to those monsters.
My heart goes out to the mother and her surviving child, but my heart also goes out to this man and his family.

Peared · 24-01-2008 8:13pm

In the Wayne O donoghue thread I said I hoped every day of the rest of his life is a living hell.

Same applies here and pretty much to any child murderers.

He knew what he was doing, children dont bounce.

Dudess · 24-01-2008 8:16pm

Oh my god, you seriously don't have a clue what you're talking about. Again, if attitudes like this prevail, no wonder people are keeping their mouths shut when they're experiencing mental illness. And no wonder suicide rates are so high when they're made to feel like they have nobody to turn to.

Peared · 24-01-2008 8:27pm

I have a pretty good knowledge of mental health issues actually Dudess. Never assume to know more than somebody you know nothing about.

I have no time for "pick n mix" mental illness ie oh f*ck Ive done something wrong, even though I was fine yesterday, today I suddenly have an illness.

Also there are so many different types and scales of condition that it is impossible to excuse an act simply because of this.

Most peoples natural reaction is to have sympathy for the mother of the dead child and the little girl whse father tried to murder her.

Most peoples natural reaction is to feel no sympathy for a man who would murder both his kids to get his wifes attention or for payback.

Me, I have none. And Im fine with that.

You do, and Im fine with that too.

slipss · 24-01-2008 8:32pm

KaG1888 wrote: »

This guy killed his son, it doesn't matter if it was in a fit of rage. He still did it and has to suffer the consequences even if he totally regrets it.

Just to clarify as there have been a few posts there like this. He wasn't found not guilty of murder because he was angry or depressed. He was found not guilty of murder because he was deemed to be clinically insane at the time of the incident and to have no understanding of right or wrong and couldn't comprehend the effect of his actions. I'm not saying that judgment was correct, but he wasn't found not guilty because he was sad or p1ssed off, thats not a legal defence.

Dudess · 24-01-2008 8:43pm

Peared wrote: »

I have no time for "pick n mix" mental illness ie oh f*ck Ive done something wrong, even though I was fine yesterday, today I suddenly have an illness.

He had a HISTORY! It wasn't a case of him suddenly becoming ill for the few minutes that the horrific tragedy took place. His brothers committed suicide ffs!
If a mother had done it, there would be far more compassion and understanding (e.g. that woman in Carlow). I've had dealings with men's groups and there is a dreadfully misogynistic element within them, but I have to say some of their concerns about men being punished for their gender are very valid.

Peared · 24-01-2008 8:54pm

Dudess we will have to agree to disagree. The OP asked if we have sympathy. I guess you do and I dont.

As far as his sex being a factor tbh I would probably agree with you that people have more sympathy for a woman. Personally I would have even less as however horrific I find the killing of a child, I find it all the more beyond understanding when you have nurtured that child in your own body. Should it make a difference what sex the person is? No. But it seems to.

A psychologist friend of mine muttered "bast*rd" when watching the news about this initially. That is not an attitude he brings to his work and he did not mean it literally. It was the father in him reacting at a very basic level to something that goes against nature. Sometimes even when you know the why of a case it can be difficult to see past the too small coffin.

John Hogan

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