Unfair dismissal what options do i have

sovtek

I was very recently dismissed from my position after 2 1/2 years in my job without warning. Now after reading up and talking to a few people I seem to have a very good case. They did not follow their own dismissal procedures, as in I never received a warning...ever...for anything, and even if guilty of what was accused of it hardly falls under their Gross Misconduct guidelines.
I want to take a case against my former employer but I am not in this for compensation...but want to make my former boss think about never doing this to another person again. The people I work with are very shaken by whats happened to me and worry about when they might get the axe for whatever reason. This person is the MD of a very well known company in Ireland and they employ over 100 people.
Anyway I am very confused about the process. The sight mentions a Rights Commissioner, Employment Appeals Tribunal...etc etc.
I'm not sure which venue to bring it to. Also that you are only entitled to lost wages. It's possibly that I may have a job next week (even though it is a jump back in skill set and a much smaller scale network than I am used to). If that is so then the punitive award would not give much pause the my former boss to do this to someone else.
Now I'm not greedy, but a months salary is peanuts. I want to inflict damage as a matter of principle so this will not happen again.
Not only did I loose my income but my credit is now ruined. I had weeks and a near nervous breakdown trying to find out what will happen to my immigration status and what obstacles there are to taking up another job. I am also not able to get benefits as it will bar me from gaining citizenship so am a few weeks away from the streets.
I have heard of people taking a case against a company and getting 10-15k with a solicitor, although it's been a few years since.
Is it possible to sue the company rather than take it to the Tribunal or Rights Commissioner?

ntlbell

is it you think it was unfair or is it actually factually unfair?

ChuckProphet

have u looked at NERA
http://www.employmentrights.ie/en/

sovtek

ChuckProphet wrote: »

have u looked at NERA
http://www.employmentrights.ie/en/

I did look at that. In that case it's more a dispute resolution. I want a judgement that says they did something wrong and it to be public. This has happened to other people. They also have quite a few immigrants working for them and they exploit that when they can. One women from a non-EU eastern european has worked there for over five years and still makes minimum wage.

sovtek

ntlbell wrote: »

is it you think it was unfair or is it actually factually unfair?

\

Actually factually unfair as I understand the law.

Nody

sovtek wrote: »

One women from a non-EU eastern european has worked there for over five years and still makes minimum wage.

And this is illegal since?

Anyway the chances of you getting anything public saying they did something wrong are slim, most cases will be settled out of court via undisclosed amount of cash. You say you want to inflict damage but once again, chances are what ever cash you get will not be that noticable for the company (and this is talking in the 100k+ area as well), slap on the wrist for the manager etc. This is talking from someone who's been in a company who been in such a scenario (and the people rightly deserved to be fired but the manager doing it fecked up the process).

Now, first of all get out of your vengence mode, it will only ruin what ever case you may have AND you're doing something stupid. The reason is you're acting on instinct wanting to hit back and "hurt them" by your own words "so it don't happen again". Few things you need to decide here is:
1) Would you REALLY want to go back there and work again?
2) What would really benefit you? I.e. salary, reference for the future etc.
3) What evidence do you have documented (anything not documented is close to useless)?
4) Have you received the required papers from the company for a dismissal (i.e. the reason for dismissal etc.)?

I'm not going to bother with 1 but it is a possability that you might be offered to come back. If you are seriously think about if you would want to work there.

On point two, once again, what are you seeking here? If you don't want to be dismissed on paper or have a good reference this part is usually quite easily settled. Cash, once again out of court settlement would mean a lot more cash in hand then what you would most likely be awarded in court. You may want to "hurt them" but realize what you are doing will actually hurt you more then the company by doing so. How many companies do you think would want to hire someone who sued their last company and had a big public fight even if justified?

Point three, make sure you save all documentation. Verbal stuff will be coming down to he said, she said arguments and not, your collegues talking for you don't matter a whole damn lot either. What you want, and need, is hard on paper tracks. Write down all the circumstances around it, times, people in the meetings etc. This is what you will need when/if this goes to court. Especially note as much stuff backing up your side of the story, and if possible any e-mail chains of relevence from your inbox. Give a collegue your login details and note time, date, subject etc. on them and preferably print/forward them for future use. Most likely not completly kosher from a company point though so be warned, hard copies might suffice and harder to track out of the building.

Final point, you have the right to recieve certain notifications of why you where fired, certain amount of days to appeal etc. in writing. If you have not receieved this go back and ask where it is and ask for it in writing. Also ask for a copy of the company procedures for handling complaints, dismissals and warnings in writing. Once again, if the company did not follow this as you said they have already lost the case (and their laywers would tell 'em as much as well). When you get challanged on it (and you will) simply state you need this on behalf of your solicitor and if they don't send it the next request will be from the solicitor directly.

The idea here is to scare them up and possibly get you what you want on the table directly with out having to pay for it. Reason is when you mention solicitor they will go talk to the manager, HR will look into how it was handled, talk to their solicitor, realize they are toast in court and ask you what you want. That is the theory anyway.

The Hill Billy

A couple of questions for you:

1. How do you know that the company did not follow their dismissal procedures?
You mention that "even if guilty of what was accused of it hardly falls under their Gross Misconduct guidelines."
What ever you did (or didn't do) may not fall under your definition of gross misconduct, but it may do so under theirs. And that may warrant instant dismissal with warning.

2. Are you prepared to tell us what the alleged offence was? It may help in you getting more concrete advice on what course of action to take.

Nody

Hill Billy wrote: »

You mention that "even if guilty of what was accused of it hardly falls under their Gross Misconduct guidelines."
What ever you did (or didn't do) may not fall under your definition of gross misconduct, but it may do so under theirs. And that may warrant instant dismissal with warning.

Actually even HAVING gross misconduct mentioned as example(s) is risky for a company these days because you're setting up a situation where the only possible outcome is dismissal if found guilty (which is a bad thing (tm)). The company solicitors ended up having that part pulled a couple of years ago beacuse of this (having said that if you're drinking on site and getting caught you're still going to be fired!).

sovtek

Hill Billy wrote: »

A couple of questions for you:

1. How do you know that the company did not follow their dismissal procedures?
You mention that "even if guilty of what was accused of it hardly falls under their Gross Misconduct guidelines."
What ever you did (or didn't do) may not fall under your definition of gross misconduct, but it may do so under theirs. And that may warrant instant dismissal with warning.

I know they didn't because they are laid down in their staff handbook. I was brought into the office by the MD, asked two questions without a witness and then told I was fired. My email account had already been deleted the friday before I was told and was told the "decision had been made" days before when I was out sick.
Oh and they have no HR department.
As I understand it, if it's not in writing what is considered gross misconduct then they can not claim it's gross misconduct. For example they say in their handbook that if someone issues a ticket without taking payment that they can be dismissed immediately.

2. Are you prepared to tell us what the alleged offence was? It may help in you getting more concrete advice on what course of action to take.

I did not follow a tape backup procedure

sovtek

Nody wrote: »

And this is illegal since?

Because a work permit is only issued to someone making more than 30k a year besides it being exploitative and wrong.

Anyway the chances of you getting anything public saying they did something wrong are slim, most cases will be settled out of court via undisclosed amount of cash. You say you want to inflict damage but once again, chances are what ever cash you get will not be that noticable for the company (and this is talking in the 100k+ area as well), slap on the wrist for the manager etc. This is talking from someone who's been in a company who been in such a scenario (and the people rightly deserved to be fired but the manager doing it fecked up the process).

I had heard of people getting 10-15k before although the law may be different than two or three years ago. If that was what I got then the owners would defo be asking what Mr. MD was doing. They already don't trust him.

Now, first of all get out of your vengence mode, it will only ruin what ever case you may have AND you're doing something stupid. The reason is you're acting on instinct wanting to hit back and "hurt them" by your own words "so it don't happen again". Few things you need to decide here is:
1) Would you REALLY want to go back there and work again?
2) What would really benefit you? I.e. salary, reference for the future etc.
3) What evidence do you have documented (anything not documented is close to useless)?
4) Have you received the required papers from the company for a dismissal (i.e. the reason for dismissal etc.)?

Few things. It's principle...not vengence.
It's stated in the act that the onus is on the company to prove they dismissed fairly...not the other way around.
I'm not going to get a reference from them anyway
I have witnesses to my side of the story.
I received no written statement as to the reasons why I was dismissed

I'm not going to bother with 1 but it is a possability that you might be offered to come back. If you are seriously think about if you would want to work there.

They have already filled the position

On point two, once again, what are you seeking here? If you don't want to be dismissed on paper or have a good reference this part is usually quite easily settled.

For them never to do this again and to follow the law

Cash, once again out of court settlement would mean a lot more cash in hand then what you would most likely be awarded in court. You may want to "hurt them" but realize what you are doing will actually hurt you more then the company by doing so. How many companies do you think would want to hire someone who sued their last company and had a big public fight even if justified?

Its principle. I'm not interested in anything other than putting me back where I was in terms of cash. I'm going to be employed before I can pursue it anyway

Wishbone Ash

ntlbell wrote: »

is it you think it was unfair or is it actually factually unfair?

A dismissal is automatically deemed to be unfair unless proved otherwise.

The burden of proof is on the employer, not the employee.

PeakOutput

sovtek wrote: »

besides it being exploitative and wrong.

from the limited info you gave us i doubt you have much of a case but im far from an epert. the only reason im replying is that i fail to see how someone willing to work for a company for a certain amount of money is being exploited. they are not being forced to work there.

Nody

sovtek wrote: »

Because a work permit is only issued to someone making more than 30k a year besides it being exploitative and wrong.

Hence they should be let go then (or more correctly they should be forced to leave the country as they don't fulfill the visa requirements).

I had heard of people getting 10-15k before although the law may be different than two or three years ago. If that was what I got then the owners would defo be asking what Mr. MD was doing. They already don't trust him.

And he'd get a slap on the wrist where as you (if you are unlucky) would be seen as a whistle blower. Should it count against you? No. Would it? In most cases yes.

I'm not going to get a reference from them anyway
I have witnesses to my side of the story.

Question was what you wanted, you say you will not get a reference, well as part of you deal you may, that was the point. Your witnesses will be in a very weak position (they can line up all the managers saying they are wrong, excluding the whole "afraid to testify" part you mentioned for example). What you want is proper paper trail(s), harder to fake/hide and can't be challenged as easily. This is more to do with amounts/ease etc though.

They have already filled the position

You can still be hired again for same salary and position as part of a deal to take you back to drop the case.

For them never to do this again and to follow the law

You see here is where you go into dream land. This simply will not happen, stop dreaming and move on, companies break the law, no, they don't end up changing that because of a legal case in practice no matter how public short of Mc Donalds coffee suit levels (i.e. thousands of complaints over multiple years, third degree burn wounds and knowledge at the director level that the coffee was to hot to drink). Heck I'd bet if I repeated the test now I could still scold myself pretty damn bad though if I repeated the set up from that scenario even today.

Its principle. I'm not interested in anything other than putting me back where I was in terms of cash. I'm going to be employed before I can pursue it anyway

And how would you explain to that company if you have to take day(s) of in court for example or that you don't have a reference from a 2.5 year job in another company? Might I recommend swallow your pride a bit and go for a deal for a nice wad of cash, a good written reference and a promise it will be confirmed as a good reference (might want to pick another manager though). A ****ty company will remain a ****ty company, no matter what you try to do to them.

harmoboxer

Just to say I FULLY agree with the last post. I am having a problem where I work because I stood up for what I believe was right and whilst I would love to go public and highlight the crappy treatment I have had since the reality is I need to get a reference and I know I would never win??:(

The Hill Billy

Getting back to the original issue...

sovtek - Based on the fact that the company appeared to dismiss you without following their documented procedures, not to mention your stated reason for being dismissed, I would say that you have a decent enough case to take against them. Whether you pursue them directly through the courts or via an employment appeals tribunal - other posters have already provided advice.

Morlar

sovtek wrote: »

I did not follow a tape backup procedure

If you caused a company (particularly if its in the finance sector) to not have a viable or relevant backup (whether its daily/weekly) then thats a dismissable offence right there. I have known people to be fired for a lot less.

sovtek

Morlar wrote: »

If you caused a company (particularly if its in the finance sector) to not have a viable or relevant backup (whether its daily/weekly) then thats a dismissable offence right there. I have known people to be fired for a lot less.

I've known people to be fired for a lot less too, but just because someone is fired for something doesn't mean its fair or legal.
I also created the backup procedure as they didn't have one when I started and my boss knew about the circumstances months before I was fired for it.
There is also nothing in their procedures for dismissal about this being considered gross misconduct. Anything related to that only mentions retail staff actions.
They've been done a few times for this before.

The Hill Billy

Morlar wrote: »

If you caused a company (particularly if its in the finance sector) to not have a viable or relevant backup (whether its daily/weekly) then thats a dismissable offence right there. I have known people to be fired for a lot less.

That may be so, but it doesn't make it right. Everybody slips up in their work duties from time to time. "To err is human..." etc.

If it is an ongoing issue that you are negligent in your work - you get a verbal or written warning. If it you don't pull your socks up & there is no improvement in performance - you get fired However, a one-off instance of not following an IT procedure doesn't really fall into that scenario.

Morlar

To be honest I dont have much of an interest in this thread but to me, going by what I have seen posted so far, it seems you are trying to 'get them' on a technicality of their procedures rather than on whether they were actually right or wrong.

Its hard to give an accurate assessment of who is right or wrong with only the partial facts from one side to the story.

I stand by what I said however if you caused them to not have a viable /relevant backup (daily or weekly) because of something you did or because of something you didnt do you can expect to get fired. For a company to risk losing a day or a weeks transactions costs a fortune in lost business, angry customers, trying to re-create the data manually and so on. Losing a backup that is then needed can put a company out of business or severely hamper their prospects. Companies dont have a sense of humour about that sort of thing - specially if taking care of that is your job to begin with.

I would fire anyone in that position too - If they work in that area of IT its not unreasonable to say that there is an assumption of general competence and awareness of the severity of those situations - and if that is lacking they are not qualified for the job to begin with. imo.

The Hill Billy

Morlar wrote: »

I would fire anyone in that position too - If they work in that area of IT its not unreasonable to say that there is an assumption of general competence and awareness of the severity of those situations - and if that is lacking they are not qualified for the job to begin with. imo.

That's one helluva high horse you got there.

While it may not be "unreasonable to say that there is an assumption of general competence and awareness of the severity of those situations" - One single lapse in one's duties in this area would not constitute an immediately sackable offence. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous.

Morlar

Hill Billy wrote: »

That's one helluva high horse you got there.

While it may not be "unreasonable to say that there is an assumption of general competence and awareness of the severity of those situations" - One single lapse in one's duties in this area would not constitute an immediately sackable offence. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous.

Coming from an IT backgroung there is nothing 'high horse' about that whatsoever.

I suppose it depends on the level of criticality of the system in question, also on the level of employment.

Grads or newhires and the like are given an amount of leeway and expectations are set far lower than an exerienced professional (who is also on better money).

If your talking about an experienced professional (hired as such) there is less leeway given for mistakes at a critical level (assuming that this is what is being discussed here).

Causing a company to not have a daily or weekly backup is grounds for dismissal - as mentioned I have seen people marched ouf of the buiding without warning for far less.

This may be different in the public sector - in the private sector business critical systems - companies frown on anything even approaching knackering their backups.

nesf

Hill Billy wrote: »

One single lapse[/I] in one's duties in this area would not constitute an immediately sackable offence.

What makes you think this was a single lapse? I agree with Molar to an extent, ****ing up with the backup can be a very bad thing and all this trying to catch out a company on a technicality business reminds me of people having "accidents" in shops and then going finding themselves a good solicitor.


Edit: The above isn't actually directed at you sovtek. Just to be clear. More towards the attitude towards unfair dismissals legislation in general.

The Hill Billy

nesf wrote: »

What makes you think this was a single lapse?

I had put forward an opinion in an earlier post saying: "If it is an ongoing issue that you are negligent in your work - you get a verbal or written warning. If it you don't pull your socks up & there is no improvement in performance - you get fired. However, a one-off instance of not following an IT procedure doesn't really fall into that scenario."

I was not speaking about the OP's situation directly. Nevertheless, the implication is that this was a single lapse on the OP's behalf. It's not like he's saying "I've forgotten to run backups in the past & they never fired me. Now all of a sudden they have."

AARRRGH

Talk to a solicitor.