Pack Roles Question

Colm_OReilly

Hi guys,

I love rugby but I'm more of a spectator of the sport rather than any sort of analyst. To me, it seems to be a sport where you have to be able to do anything and everything on the field - pass, tackles, ruck, maul, etc.

Bearing that in mind, I hear people talk about so-and-so not being a #7, or being better suited to another position.

Has anyone any good links on what's the "requirements" or specialities of certain positions? I think the backs are more evident but I'm clueless when it comes to forwards. I've no idea if being an open or closed side makes much of a different, for example.

Cheers,
Colm

Tim Robbins

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

Hi guys,

I love rugby but I'm more of a spectator of the sport rather than any sort of analyst. To me, it seems to be a sport where you have to be able to do anything and everything on the field - pass, tackles, ruck, maul, etc.

Bearing that in mind, I hear people talk about so-and-so not being a #7, or being better suited to another position.

Has anyone any good links on what's the "requirements" or specialities of certain positions? I think the backs are more evident but I'm clueless when it comes to forwards. I've no idea if being an open or closed side makes much of a different, for example.

Cheers,
Colm

No links but a genuine 7 would be better at the breakdown. The thinking is that they would be at the breakdown quicker and would be very quick at bending their body over to rip the ball from the tackle or to slow it down.

Wallace has huge leg strength and can break tackles but wouldn't have the ability to get down as quick as say Glesson or Jennings who wouldn't have Wallace's leg strength. wally would be a better 6, 8 for that reason.

Munster play with no genuine 7 and effectively use 3 number 8's. But have been successful at this tactic in the same way as some Soccer teams play better with 3 center halfs. They commit a lot of players to the breakdown and control the ball very well so they usually know where the next breakdown will be. The same pack playing for Ireland does not commit as many players to the breakdown and when playing for Ireland you'll see Leamy and Wallace hanging around the 3 /4 's where you will never see that happening when they wear a munster jersey.

bugler

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/skills/default.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport/hi/english/static/in_depth/rugby_union/features/guide_to_positions/loosehead.stm

http://www.bwctc.northants.sch.uk/Curriculum/Sport/Rugby/Positions.aspx

Have a look around those.

Ok. Here we go. Some of this is subjective, and some I'm no expert on, so others will have their 2c no doubt.

The pack:

1. The Loosehead Prop. Always binds under the hookers left arm, and the position is technically easier than tighthead prop. He needs to support his hooker and ensure the hooker can get a clean heel on the ball (like they ever have to hook the ball anymore!). Obviously his other duties are like much of the pack, lifting in the lineout, hitting rucks and mauls etc.

2. The hooker. Needs to be proficient in the clinic skills of the position, i.e. hooking the ball at the scrum and lineout throwing. The modern game has seen the need for the hooker to be more mobile and dynamic, and act as an extra loose forward where possible.

3. The tighthead. Has one of the most demanding jobs on the field. Essential to a stable scrum (the physics behind the scrum put greater pressure on him than the LH, and he doesn't get as much support from the hooker as the LH). Outside the scrum their main duties are like much of the pack, hitting rucks, mauls lifting etc. along with fringe defence. There's no point allowing the props to be exposed out on the wing or centres where they may have to face a back. The TH should be one of the strongest men on the side and is probably the strongest, so their contribution in the tight should be felt.

4 and 5. The locks. Generally divided into a less athletic but aggressive front of lineout jumper, and a more athletically gifted no.5 who jumps at the middle or tail. Obviously both have to lock the scrum too, and should be prominent again in rucks, mauls and the tight stuff. One of these two are going to run the lineout calls to ensure quality ball on your own throw and to disrupt opposition ball on theirs.

6. Blindside flanker. At the scrum, will bind to the side of the scrum which is closest to a touchline. Needs to be a very reliable and aggressive tackler, as they may well face an 8 running off the base of an opposition scrum and they may be short of support. Along with all the back row needs to be a presence at the breakdown, will often be among the first 2/3 players to the breakdown, so should be a good rucker and counter rucker. It helps if the number 6 can jump in the lineout at the tail (tail ball being the most favoured for a backline to receive).

7. Openside flanker. Will bind to the side of the scrum that has most open field outside it. The traditional one is generally smaller than the rest of the pack but more mobile. They need to be good tacklers as they are very often first up, and should be first or thereabouts to every breakdown. So they are essential to quick ball and to linking forwards with backs. A very physically demanding position, the openside is probably one of the fittest members of the team as the position generally involves constant motion. The openside should also be a pain in the arse to the opposition at the breakdown, winning turnovers and slowing ball down where possible. Is generally exempt from jumping duties at the lineout, though not always, and they'll often be loitering at the back of the lineout looking for any overthrows or loose ball. Regardless of the circumstances, if a ball is loose and up for grabs your openside should be there scrapping for it.

8. A good 8 should perhaps combine the ruggedness of the forward with the deft touch of a back. Needs to control the ball at the base of the scrum which isn't always easy, and work with the scrum half to get the ball away. Also should be one of the best ball carriers on the pitch, and not just off the base of the scrum. Will very often take receipt of opposition restarts and run the ball back, as well as kicks in play (you'll often see an 8 loitering back with some of his back three anticipating a kick from the opposition). It's a bonus for an 8 to be a good lineout jumper too, generally at the tail like a 6. Again is a link man between forwards and backs, and should be a presence at the breakdown. Will often be among the first to the breakdown.

bugler

I also meant to add that Jim Greenwood's book "Total Rugby" is well worth a read. It's a coaching bible, but it isn't overly difficult to read and there's a awful lot of common sense there. It's amazing how many times I watch internationals or other big games and think "I wonder have they ever read Jim Greenwood".

Diamondmaker

To get a clear picture of the frint row try interlocking 3 fingers from each hand and you will see on each and opposite side one "prop" is surrounded by 2fingers on each side and the other only one.

The guy in the tighter jam is the tight head and the other term follows neatly.

Its how I educated my GF temporaily on some of the terms for the RWC while we there until she repeatedly forgot due to wine

Some other positions involved handbags and shopping to explain

Timothy Bryce

Diamondmaker wrote: »

Some other positions involved handbags and shopping to explain

Yeah - Haircut Henson's position probably involves a lot of the above

Colm_OReilly

Thanks guys, makes a lot more sense now (only have to see if it will transfer over to when I watch the games). I'll try pick up that book as well, sounds interesting.

mikep

Diamondmaker wrote: »

Some other positions involved handbags and shopping to explain

Jeez...don't leave us hangin' with that...

Please continue with your users guide.....

Amz

Diamondmaker wrote: »

Some other positions involved handbags and shopping to explain

Careful now ...

Diamondmaker

Amz wrote: »

Careful now ...

aoa321

While you're at it I've got a question - why does the hooker always take the lineout throw-ins?

Obviously it's not against the rules for another player to throw the ball in because sometimes the player who catches the ball after it goes out of play will take a quick throw-in (but maybe that's only allowed if there is no lineout as such !!).

I've never played rugby (tag doesn't count) and I've only ever seen or attended big games between international teams - in every case the hooker is the one who throws the ball into the lineout - is this a rule or is it convention?

Has there ever been a team where the hooker does not throw the ball in because he's no good or whatever and where one of the other forwards takes over that duty instead?

Podge_irl

Convention. I think there was a team in the recent past whose winger threw the ball in.

Danger_Dave

well at lower levels, if your anyway good you throw the ball in, hookers/props, you get a few flankers who played hooker at schools who throw in the ball,

hardCopy

aoa321 wrote: »

While you're at it I've got a question - why does the hooker always take the lineout throw-ins?

Obviously it's not against the rules for another player to throw the ball in because sometimes the player who catches the ball after it goes out of play will take a quick throw-in (but maybe that's only allowed if there is no lineout as such !!).

I've never played rugby (tag doesn't count) and I've only ever seen or attended big games between international teams - in every case the hooker is the one who throws the ball into the lineout - is this a rule or is it convention?

Has there ever been a team where the hooker does not throw the ball in because he's no good or whatever and where one of the other forwards takes over that duty instead?

Apparently (before my time) wingers used to throw in. Technically anyone can throw in.

I'm guessing here, but I'd imagine the hooker got the job by process of elimination. The back row stay to the back of the lineout so that they can get to the breakdown quickly, the locks jump because they're tall and the props lift because they're generally stronger than the hooker.

figs86

regarding hooker throwing in,

cant remember last pro team i saw where hooker didnt throw but ive played on a couple of teams especially in schools rugby where hooker didnt throw

reasoning was basically others were better and the hooker was a good lifter so on balance, better to have them lift and another throw

then when it came to scrumtime they were best at playing hooker

legspin

The hooker throwing in at the lineout has only been around since the late sixties. Afaik it was the All Blacks that started it. Before it was the winger on that side of the pitch that threw it in.

Stev_o

Well if you think about it throwing itself has only really started since 1995/6 before their was lifting it was merely someone's job to throw it into the mess of players looking to catch it. Crazy thing to watch, if anyone happened to see any of the matches TG4 are showing of Ireland from the mid 80's up to 95 you ll understand

legspin

Stev_o wrote: »

Well if you think about it throwing itself has only really started since 1995/6 before their was lifting it was merely someone's job to throw it into the mess of players looking to catch it. Crazy thing to watch, if anyone happened to see any of the matches TG4 are showing of Ireland from the mid 80's up to 95 you ll understand

Not quite true. Played hooker myself for awhile and you did try to hit a target. It was more reliant on the jumper alright but one of the reasons why it looks so chaotic was the packs stood alot closer together so there was a lot jostling going on. Thus you got more slapping down rather than clean catches.

EdgarAllenPoo

Just watched one of those old matches on TG4, bloody hell rugby has come a long way since 1984. Those lineouts were a complete mess. Now I know were Ibanez gets his god awful throwing style from.

Diamondmaker

The above posts on the hooker, to me, represent the beauty of the game of Rugby.

It really is a game of chess, where all the positions are filled by players differing in skills, to varying degrees and each with special attributes and restrictions...just like the various pieces on a chess board.

Evrey player in the modern game is built and shaped a certain way out of neccesity and thro evolution. No player can cover more than 1 or 2 positions because of the specific demands each positions requires.

In the modern game, if a hooker stepped onto the wing while a winger threw a line out, there would be a probable and serious pace and agility mismatch some where on the field as a result. Every position also has to equally counter the opposite !

You often here of mismatches where a prop barrells thro a s/h on the line or a back takes the long way round and still burns a forward for pace. Mis matches must be avoided and hence every player has a core set of skills and physical attributes that must be met to do their offensive and defensive duties.

Of course over time this is changing and teams will occasionally get an edge with new "evolutions". Most obviously compare weight of the 3C Irish team of the 80s to the teams of the 00s. Only 20 Years, even to look at them its obvious!

My prediction is the natural size, power, bulk and speed of the Pacific Islanders and their recent efforts to kerb poaching from the Oz and Kiwis , will lead to an unreal set of players. Improved coaching, resources and education is required.
These guys can be big fast and heavy all in one, in ways caucasions and certainly the Japs et al cant be. In a way that Lomu ( who incidentally now looks small ) was when he burst onto or thro (Catt ) the scene !

To me all of this is one of the most fascinating aspects of the game watching it evolve and teams pushing the envelope.
DM.

Ulstermell0

echoing some of the above posts - hooker is usually shortest bloke in the pack - you don't want to use a back because thats taking a man away from the back line.

Pinetree Boy

I recall in a vague way that the French in the 80's had their half back throw in. Someone else may remember better.

As far as pre lifting days- I was a hooker and it was a bloody sight more difficult job. You may have only hit the target 75% of the time if you (and your jumpers) were good but you needed to be a lot more skilful than today. Personally, I liked the fact that lineouts were more of a contest but I am probably just getting old.

komodosp

I have a question since we seem to be asking these questions in this thread... (I too am a spectator not a player!)

I am always hearing that you are not allowed to use your hands on the ball in the ruck. So how does the ball get turned over?

Stev_o

komodosp wrote: »

I have a question since we seem to be asking these questions in this thread... (I too am a spectator not a player!)

I am always hearing that you are not allowed to use your hands on the ball in the ruck. So how does the ball get turned over?

Either before the ruck is called IE I make a tackle on the opposition i am allowed to compete for the ball [ie take up] as long as i am on my feet.

Or if if i tackle the ball carrier and manage to tackle him so he and the ball is facing my team and his back his team then the ball would be turned over.

Diamondmaker

Or if some one arrives to the melee on the ground legally, ie steps in "thro the gate" then they can cleanly pick up the ball provided they are on their feet or stand over it and create a ruck...

No hands on the ground means the tackled player cannot hold the ball from being robbed by the new arrival or an oppostion player cannot do like wise and shovel the ball his way.

You are allowed certain grace to feed a ball back after a tackle, another rule that is very grey and totally depends on the ref how long is allowed.

Then slowing the ball comes in fromthe defensive side....its such a complex area and many calls in this aspect can be and are read different wys by different people. Some refs are well known and roundly respected for policing this area, the breakdown well and others notorious whislte blowers or hold apparent grudges against teams who slow ball.

Colm_OReilly

Is slowing the ball down considered dishonourable/unsportsmanlie/uncool play? To me it seems that whenever a commentation mentions a side slowing the ball down they're giving out about it, as if it's not a very skillful or tactical way to stop the attaking side.

Then again, it could just be when teams do it against Irish teams.

Ulstermell0

no - on sky/bbc you often here players congratulated for, "doing a great job slowing down the ball."

i think its obviously not great for a complete neutral as it means the game is beiong played at a slower pace. but i don't think its frowned apon.

Amz

You want quick ball to get the team moving forward or to release your backline. Slow ball gives the other team a chance to realign, or set up in defence etc. So it's good when you're team do it, but bad when the other team do it

barnesd

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

Is slowing the ball down considered dishonourable/unsportsmanlie/uncool play? To me it seems that whenever a commentation mentions a side slowing the ball down they're giving out about it, as if it's not a very skillful or tactical way to stop the attaking side.

Not at all, it's a skill. The reason a commentator might give out about it is because very very often it's done illegally, and sometimes it can spoil games as a spectacle if the defense is fouling at every breakdown.

CommandoJack

Post #1... woo -.-

well yeah, i reckon you've had most of the questions answered, but just a couple similarities throughout the middle-back rows:

a small-medium build second row (me, originally. joy) with a decent level of fitness can perform better than a mediocre 6 or 7, and a poor 8.



in the following comments i'm assuming that the player in the quoted position knows what they are doing and can hold a place on a first XV team for a club, so at an amateur/semi-pro level (being above schools but below pro)

I've been playing 8 for a couple of years now. IMHO it's the third most taxing position on the pitch in terms of decision making, movement and commitment, first and second being scrum-half and fullback respectively.

Following training at 8, it's incredibly easy to play anywhere from 4-7 too. 6 and 7 should be able to fill in on the second row if they're tall enough (contrary to popular belief, you don't have to be medium height to be an awesome flanker). The beauty is that although the positions demand different things in set plays, rucks and the general form of a game, the training for each of the positions 4-8 is so intermingled that players can be chopped and changed with very little detriment. I guess it's the same with centres and wings, though i'd reckon a centre would perform better on the wing than a wing would moving into centre.

Although the swapping of positions occurs quite readily in several sports, I think the link between 4-8 in rugby is the closest.

Maybe it's just my experience though =D

Colm,

It really depends on the team though. Some teams play three specialists in the back row. Conventionally the blindside (No.6) will be bigger and closer to a No.8 while No.7 is often a lot smaller. Somebody mentioned the Munster example of playing a universally big backrow. France traditionally play two flankers, neither of which is designated blindside and openside, just left and right.

My J4 level rugby team plays with the No.7/8 being good fast ball carriers and me playing 6 with a largely defensive game (Letting 7 and 8 have a bit more freedom).

Personally I like having a specialist No.7 who acts as a little terrier being on the wrongside of every maul and mysteriously channelling the ball back on opposition rucks.

il gatto

komodosp wrote: »

I have a question since we seem to be asking these questions in this thread... (I too am a spectator not a player!)

I am always hearing that you are not allowed to use your hands on the ball in the ruck. So how does the ball get turned over?

By actually using your hands It's an art in itself, not being caught doing it.