Supplements - creatine & glutamine

Jimmy Bottlehead

Hey all,

I'm gonna start taking creatine (again) and glutamine in the next wee while, and was looking to get Nutrition X RAM as well. (I heard how great it is!)

I was thinking of getting RAM with Nutrition X Creatine, but I seen Nutrition X also have a product called CellX that has both creatine and glutamine in it.

However, I'm not sure if mixing RAM with CellX would be good or bad. I did see Hanley said mixing RAM with creatine is brilliant though.

Any recommendations? (please no 'stay away from supps' answers, thanks!):)

http://www.nutritionx.ie/RAM.html
http://www.nutritionx.ie/Cell-X.html
http://www.nutritionx.ie/Creatine.html

tribulus

I don't see the problem tbh. Just get both in orange flavour, yum.

Jimmy Bottlehead

tribulus wrote: »

I don't see the problem tbh. Just get both in orange flavour, yum.

Cool man - part of the question is that individually, creatine and glutamine instructions say to take 10g of each every day. Thats grand if I get just the creatine, but the two servings of CellX will only contain 5g Glutamine and 8g Creatine. No point getting CellX if it doesn't deliver the right amounts of both, ya know?

tribulus

That's plenty in my experience, I wouldn't get too bogged down in whether 7 or 8g is better etc. chances are it really won't matter. Besides glutamine is expenisve!

Hanley

I had a great time making my own super shake...

2 Scoops of RAM
1 Scoop of CellX
5g of creatine

Bloody lovely. I should really get the makings of it again...

Patto

Jimmy Bottlehead wrote: »

Hey all,

Any recommendations? (please no 'stay away from supps' answers, thanks!):)

I love it:rolleyes:

Everyone of these threads gets that response sooner or later doesn't it.

I generally do mix RAM with other supplements in a PWO shake. I usually add another 10g of glutamine (there is only 2g of glutamine in 3 scoops of RAM), another scoop of whey (to improve the flavour and profile, the Whey is RAM is whey concentrate) and I would have have a bananna with it. If I was taking creatine I would also add 5g.

Jimmy Bottlehead

Hanley wrote: »

I had a great time making my own super shake...

2 Scoops of RAM
1 Scoop of CellX
5g of creatine

Bloody lovely. I should really get the makings of it again...

Sounds like a good plan of attack - want to look my best for the last week of February, so this might help me get a bit of a boost.

Cheers man!

Hanley

Jimmy Bottlehead wrote: »

Sounds like a good plan of attack - want to look my best for the last week of February, so this might help me get a bit of a boost.

Cheers man!

Taking in that much sugar, even post workout probably isn't the best idea if you're trying to lose bodyfat tbh. It's around 100g of carbs in the post workout shake alone like.

I had my best results when I cut it down to one scoop of ram, two at the very most when warranted, and a scoop of protein. If I were you I'd figure out how much carbs I can afford to eat in a day and make you postworkout shake to about 30% of it maybe. That number isn't based off anything other than what I did while I was dieting last year like.

Jimmy Bottlehead

Hanley wrote: »

Taking in that much sugar, even post workout probably isn't the best idea if you're trying to lose bodyfat tbh. It's around 100g of carbs in the post workout shake alone like.

I had my best results when I cut it down to one scoop of ram, two at the very most when warranted, and a scoop of protein. If I were you I'd figure out how much carbs I can afford to eat in a day and make you postworkout shake to about 30% of it maybe. That number isn't based off anything other than what I did while I was dieting last year like.

Not really trying to drop bodyfat yet, my main concern is putting on size - obviously not losing track of BF completely, but if I'm lifting heavy (for me!) and going hard in the gym then it should take care of itself for the most part.

I guess as you're a much bigger guy than myself, I'll work out the shake for myself, but RAM, Creatine, and CellX should give me plenty of the good stuff! Along with a balanced diet!

amazingemmet

Glutamine is only really worth going for if you're low-carbing if not then you won't see a difference from using it.

HammerHeadGym

amazingemmet wrote: »

Glutamine is only really worth going for if you're low-carbing if not then you won't see a difference from using it.

I was training in Thailand and found the Glutamine really helped with my recovery. I was wrecked with the heat and loss of fluids and minerals but the Glutamine REALLY helped, especially coming up to fight time.

Patto

amazingemmet wrote: »

Glutamine is only really worth going for if you're low-carbing if not then you won't see a difference from using it.

Why is that?

I have upped my Glutamine recently, I also changed my brand, I have found a big difference in DOMs and recovery between workouts. The new brand seems to work better than the old one too.

I wouldn't have thought I was low-carbing, I'm maybe moderate-carbing and I am trying to maintain a small calorie deficit in order to loose a few pounds. Its been working well.

I've never heard the glutamine low-carb connection before, what is your source?

HammerHeadGym

What was your old brand patto? and what did you switch to?

Roper

I use Nutrition X- XXX during heavy training periods, that's Creatine, Glutamine and Protein. Found it great for recovery. What's your goal though?

(please no 'stay away from supps' answers, thanks!)

Stay away from supplements!

Patto

HammerHeadGym wrote: »

What was your old brand patto? and what did you switch to?

The old brand was "ABB Glutaforce" and the new one is just labeled "glutamine" from bulkpowders. They taste different too, the ABB one had much more of a pleasent, sweat smell and flavour to it. The bulpowders one has neither taste nor flavour.

Jimmy Bottlehead

Roper wrote: »

I use Nutrition X- XXX during heavy training periods, that's Creatine, Glutamine and Protein. Found it great for recovery. What's your goal though?

trying to bulk up, have put on 27lbs already, and want another 14 by December this year, all going to plan (and beyond!)

Stay away from supplements!

I knew someone wouldn't be able to resist.

amazingemmet

Patto wrote: »

Why is that?

I have upped my Glutamine recently, I also changed my brand, I have found a big difference in DOMs and recovery between workouts. The new brand seems to work better than the old one too.

I wouldn't have thought I was low-carbing, I'm maybe moderate-carbing and I am trying to maintain a small calorie deficit in order to loose a few pounds. Its been working well.

I've never heard the glutamine low-carb connection before, what is your source?

The main aim that glutamine was brought into circulation was as a "cell volumiser". Its the amino acid thats easiest converted to glycogen and it'll help you still get a decent pump if you're low carbing. Plus taking 5gs as reccomended on the package of most is useless, when i was using it to get an decent effect i was using 20gms pre and post workout.

For more reading on glutamine:

http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=461188

http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=459884

And for the benefits of glutamine, search for any of polqiun or thibadeau's low carb articles

Jimmy Bottlehead

Ok, started off with my supps, and the CellX and RAM both taste fan-frickin-tastic (especially CellX!).

However, when I mix the two and use a shaker, it goes mighty foamy... tips on how to be less foamy?

Hanley

Just let it settle. It might take 5-10 mins before you can drink it aftre you shake it up. That's just the way it is!

Jimmy Bottlehead

Hanley wrote: »

Just let it settle. It might take 5-10 mins before you can drink it aftre you shake it up. That's just the way it is!

Cheers again man!

Reg'stoy

Jimmy Bottlehead wrote: »

Any recommendations? (please no 'stay away from supps' answers, thanks!):)

Just wondering why you object to people getting an informed choice, now I accept that you asked the question but others will see the replies you get.

I understand that the whole good/bad supplement threads have been done. But from what I have read (see below amoung others) some are on the whole considered bad for you or of no benefit what so ever and therefore are just a rip off.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/performance-enhancing-drugs/HQ01105

I constantly read posts giving out about new comers looking for the quick solution, as in how can I loss weight without dieting etc. One such topic was/still is Lipotrim, the replies shifted from why can't people just eat less and move more rather than trying this product, to how great it is changed my life etc. Yet I also constantly see posts about the supplements ZMA, creatine etc and how good they are from the same doubting Thomas's as to the benefits of Lipotrim, who will hop off those of us who doubt not only their claims but also their safety.

I am all for freedom of choice, if in making that choice people are exposed to all sides of the discussion. I for instance saw one poster (below) saying that taking 4 times the recommended amount seems to be ok :eek:

amazingemmet wrote: »

Plus taking 5gs as reccomended on the package of most is useless, when i was using it to get an decent effect i was using 20gms pre and post workout.

were I, as a new comer to do as that poster said what problems might I be letting myself in for. Surely a moderator should pick up on this, if I posted that to stop a really bad headache you should take 4 times the recommended dose of painkiller I would be hopped off.

So to reply to the caveat that Jimmy placed in his question, I have no problem with him taking these supplements in the same way he should have no problem with people having an informed opinion as to their use (not a simple blanket reply that they are all bad) and posting the same for the benefit of all readers.

Jimmy Bottlehead

Well if its going to be a case of good supp/bad supp, it's pointless using up someone elses thread when they have decided to take said supplement. If it is that much of a contentious issue for you (and I mean that with the utmost respect, you are entitled to your opinion), then surely you can start a thread concerning your feeling towards supplements?

Before I started this thread, I had decided to take the supps listed above and as such didn't want people to waste their own time advising me not to. If I was in any doubt as to their usefullness or safety, I'd ask for advice from the peeps on here. Hope that clears up why I included that in my original post.

Hanley

Reg'stoy wrote: »

I am all for freedom of choice, if in making that choice people are exposed to all sides of the discussion. I for instance saw one poster (below) saying that taking 4 times the recommended amount seems to be ok :eek:



were I, as a new comer to do as that poster said what problems might I be letting myself in for. Surely a moderator should pick up on this, if I posted that to stop a really bad headache you should take 4 times the recommended dose of painkiller I would be hopped off.

So to reply to the caveat that Jimmy placed in his question, I have no problem with him taking these supplements in the same way he should have no problem with people having an informed opinion as to their use (not a simple blanket reply that they are all bad) and posting the same for the benefit of all readers.

I don't even understand what you're trying to say. But taking 20g's of creatine is not even in the same league as taking say 8 neurofen. So much so that it's a completely moot point and irrelevant argument.

You're comparing 2 things which really have nothing in common and using one as a justification to criticise advice on the other. It's like me saying you shouldn't run fast around corners because if you were driving a car you could crash and die.

Jimmy Bottlehead

Hanley wrote: »

I don't even understand what you're trying to say. But taking 20g's of creatine is not even in the same league as taking say 8 neurofen. So much so that it's a completely moot point and irrelevant argument.

You're comparing 2 things which really have nothing in common and using one as a justification to criticise advice on the other. It's like me saying you shouldn't run fast around corners because if you were driving a car you could crash and die.

Truth Fact; also if you run around corners fast and bang your head, you'll have a sore head, ask on Boards whether you should take 6 Nurofen, and so the vicious circle continues!

Reg'stoy

Hanley wrote: »

I don't even understand what you're trying to say. But taking 20g's of creatine is not even in the same league as taking say 8 neurofen. So much so that it's a completely moot point and irrelevant argument.

You're comparing 2 things which really have nothing in common and using one as a justification to criticise advice on the other. It's like me saying you shouldn't run fast around corners because if you were driving a car you could crash and die.

Firstly what I was trying to say is that it was irresponsible for someone to make a statement that it was ok to take more than the recommended amount but I get the feeling that you see taking more than this amount as perfectly ok.

If you had included the quote I was refering to, you would have seen that the poster had said that the recommended amount on the label as in 5gms is useless so he says up it to 20gms

Many herbs and supplements have not been thoroughly tested, and safety and effectiveness may not be proven. Brands may be made differently, with variable ingredients, even within the same brand. These doses may not apply to all products. You should read product labels, and discuss doses with a qualified healthcare provider before starting taking it.

Mayo Clinic article on Creatine, in full see link below
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/creatine/NS_patient-creatine
Seeing as all statements should be factually based.

So would you mind quoting a reputable source where it is considered safe to take more than the recommended amount as given on the container.

Secondly as for me mentioning painkillers this was simply a way of reinforcing the point maybe you would have been happier if I had used vitamin supplements instead.

Hanley

Reg'stoy wrote: »

Firstly what I was trying to say is that it was irresponsible for someone to make a statement that it was ok to take more than the recommended amount but I get the feeling that you see taking more than this amount as perfectly ok.

If you had included the quote I was refering to, you would have seen that the poster had said that the recommended amount on the label as in 5gms is useless so he says up it to 20gms

Many herbs and supplements have not been thoroughly tested, and safety and effectiveness may not be proven. Brands may be made differently, with variable ingredients, even within the same brand. These doses may not apply to all products. You should read product labels, and discuss doses with a qualified healthcare provider before starting taking it.

Mayo Clinic article on Creatine, in full see link below
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/creatine/NS_patient-creatine
Seeing as all statements should be factually based.

So would you mind quoting a reputable source where it is considered safe to take more than the recommended amount as given on the container.

Secondly as for me mentioning painkillers this was simply a way of reinforcing the point maybe you would have been happier if I had used vitamin supplements instead.

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with that article, but if you look at it you'll see that creatine has been used in medical tests at dosages of 20g per day for 6 weeks. So if you're trying to debate the wisdom of a "high" dosage being dangerous it would appear you've shot yourself in the foot. Of course as you admit, there's hasnt been enough studies and as a result it's impossible to figure out what's "safe". But empirically I would confidently state "high" as in 20g per day dosages are safe. I can only imagine there's alot of people taking over the recommended amount and if creatine was as toxic and dangerous as you seem to think there'd be a lot more reports of the damage it causes. And lets not forget, 20g per day is the standard amount recommended by most "loading" cycles that alot of manufactures advise you to follow.

Secondly, it was in no way irresponsible of Emmet to make that comment. It would be irresponsible if he knew there were certain dangers associated with taking that amount. I think it's relatively clear there are not. From my perspective, I would certainly agree that "high" dosages in the region of 15-20g are MUCH more effective than the "recommended" 5g. I only use creatine for a maximum of 6-8 weeks at a time anyway. Not out of any mortal fear for my life, but just to be sure that if by some mad chance there is some yet to be discovered negatives and dangers then at least I'm keeping my bases covered.

And as an absolte final point, you quote from the article saying that; "Brands may be made differently, with variable ingredients, even within the same brand. These doses may not apply to all products.", well since we're talking about straight up creatine monohydrate the above does not apply.

And if it did, how could every manufacturer recommend 5g per serving, assuming the same serving size, if the concentration of creatine was different? Surely at least one of them would be getting it wrong and either giving more or less than the recommended. Does that concern you too?

Dragan

Reg'stoy wrote: »

Secondly as for me mentioning painkillers this was simply a way of reinforcing the point maybe you would have been happier if I had used vitamin supplements instead.

To be honest had you said vitamins supplements your argument would have held a bit more weight. Adenosine-Tri-Phosphate has a natural function within the body.....it is produced in the body. Vitamins and Minerals also have a natural function within the body. Human beings needed these since the dawn of time.

Ibuprofine and the rest? They are later advancements that we made because people don't like having headaches or pains and were a very late introduction into our systems. Not really naturally occuring in the body either. Not knocking your points, i think you making some good ones, i just think bringing pain killers into it skewed your point somewhat, which is a shame.

Edit :Finally, about 95% of the creatine sold in the world is manufactured in germany under the brand Creapure. The majority of companies simply source from these guys and sell on. If you check the packaging on most products you will see the Creapure brand standing out....as such there is no other product that would be so consistant across the market.

Reg'stoy

Hanley wrote: »

but if you look at it you'll see that creatine has been used in medical tests at dosages of 20g per day for 6 weeks. So if you're trying to debate the wisdom of a "high" dosage being dangerous it would appear you've shot yourself in the foot. Of course as you admit, there's hasnt been enough studies and as a result it's impossible to figure out what's "safe". But empirically I would confidently state "high" as in 20g per day dosages are safe. And lets not forget, 20g per day is the standard amount recommended by most "loading" cycles that alot of manufactures advise you to follow.

Secondly, it was in no way irresponsible of Emmet to make that comment. It would be irresponsible if he knew there were certain dangers associated with taking that amount. I think it's relatively clear there are not. From my perspective, I would certainly agree that "high" dosages in the region of 15-20g are MUCH more effective than the "recommended" 5g. I only use creatine for a maximum of 6-8 weeks at a time anyway. Not out of any mortal fear for my life, but just to be sure that if by some mad chance there is some yet to be discovered negatives and dangers then at least I'm keeping my bases covered.

Surely at least one of them would be getting it wrong and either giving more or less than the recommended. Does that concern you too?

I do wish you had read my original post with more than a dismissive attitude, I never once stated that you or anybody else should not take supplements, in fact I said I am all for freedom of choice.

I simply asked Jimmy why he inserted the caveat he did, as I believe the whole idea of these boards is for open and frank discussions as we are having here now. I used the Lipotrim thread as an example of posters from both sides of the fence of a topic expressing strong opinions.

I used the quote below

amazingemmet wrote: »

Plus taking 5gs as reccomended on the package of most is useless, when i was using it to get an decent effect i was using 20gms pre and post workout.

as an example of where I felt that one posters opinion should be questioned. My problem being his advocating using as I re-read it again 8 times the recommended amount as in 20gms pre and post workout for a total of 40 gms. The recommended amount of 5gms is his figure as stated on the package.

Now again I have no problem with him taking it if he wants too, I do however have a problem with someone expressing the opinion that it is ok to take as we can see above 8 times the recommended amount of anything.

I did not express an opinion on Creatine, I quoted the Mayo Clinic article simply because we now have to back up with fact what we post.

Incidentially the amount they gave of 20gms for 6 weeks where I seemingly shot myself in the foot was for studies into Congestive heart failure, the amount quoted for Enhanced athletic performance was 5-20 for 4-7 days with a maintenance level of 10gms for 21 days which you failed to mention, a far cry from 40gms. But lets not get bogged down in figures.

As to there being no certain dangers in this amount I refer back to the original article I posted, I'm quoting here to back up my opinion (and that's all it is my opinion) that he was wrong in advocating taking more than the recommended amounts i.e. Creatine in this particular case

High-dose creatine use may potentially damage your:

Kidneys
Liver
Heart
It's unknown what kind of effect taking creatine has over the long term, especially on teens or younger children. Dosage levels vary widely, depending on which product you use and how much creatine you take.

Since creatine isn't regulated by the FDA, you can't be sure of the purity of creatine supplements you buy on the market. Studies have found varying mixtures of creatine in different creatine products. And some of the inactive ingredients mixed in with the creatine may cause significant side effects, such as allergic reactions.

The bottom line is that the safety of taking creatine is questionable. Most studies involving creatine use examine the performance-enhancing aspects, and side effects are generally not well-reported.

I stated in a different forum that the thing I most enjoy about boards is that people of different views can come together and offer others advice. While I myself do not take any supplements (ok I take a Beroca every fourth day or so) I do realise that they are available. People will therefore take them and so they should be exposed to both the pro's and con's of them so they can make an informed decision as to taking them or not. That sir, was what I was simply trying to do.

g'em

aye, painkillers and vitamins are two altogether different animals.

Reg'stoy I can see where your issue is, but comparing Lipotrim/ neurofen/ creatine is a little like comparing apples/ oak trees/ cannabis plants - they all fall under the umbrella of being plants, but are all individual and all serve very different purposes.

As an entity there's nothing wrong with Lipotrim. It's virtually the same as slimfast, or whey with extra vitamins thrown in. The problem with Lipotrim is that it's an (unhealthy) vehicle that people use to lose weight; it's a plaster that masks the problems but doesn't deal with them. If someone came along and advocated drinking three whey shakes a day amounting to 600 calories along with a multi-vit I'd have the same issues with it as I do with LT.

Ibuprofen overdosing is widely published and well-known. Long-term and prolonged usage has proven side-effects. You are absoutely right that there is a lot we don't know about certain supplements. However, this moderator did "pick up on" the advocation of using higher than recommended dosaging, but I would argue that this still falls well within the safe and allowable levels of creatine dosing according to current literature on the subject.

At the end of the day we have to assume that posters and readers use the information at hand to aid decisions they make about supplementation and not try and make those decisions for them.

Reg'stoy

Dragan wrote: »

To be honest had you said vitamins supplements your argument would have held a bit more weight...... Not knocking your points, i think you making some good ones, i just think bringing pain killers into it skewed your point somewhat, which is a shame.

Fair enough maybe pain killers was wrong metaphor, but I was hopefully trying to get across that we all know taking above the recommended dose of any painkiller is very dangerous. This being so, I felt is was also wrong to make the statement that taking as I now realise 8 times the manufacturers recommended amount of 5gms (his figures) was in my opinion, again just my opinion, also dangerous ok dangerous may be overly dramatic but at the very least ill-informed. Would you not think Dragan.

Patto

IMO I think creatine, glutamine, whey etc. are protein supplements in the same way as you could consider various refined sugars as carbohydrate supplements. Except unlike with sugar there is no evidence that protein supplementation is in any way harmful. In fact the evidence is very much to the contrary, there are numerous benefits to protein supplementation.

While you cannot dismiss "the long term effects" argument completely all these protein supplements have been widely used for 10-15 years now and there aren't even tenuous links to damage to the heart, Kidney or liver.

The irony of human conditioning is unreal sometimes. No one bats an eyelid at someone downing a can of coke with a 10 spoonful shot of sugar, yet mention a protein supplement and the comparisons with steroids and drugs are never far behind.

Dragan

Reg'stoy wrote: »

Fair enough maybe pain killers was wrong metaphor, but I was hopefully trying to get across that we all know taking above the recommended dose of any painkiller is very dangerous. This being so, I felt is was also wrong to make the statement that taking as I now realise 8 times the manufacturers recommended amount of 5gms (his figures) was in my opinion, again just my opinion, also dangerous ok dangerous may be overly dramatic but at the very least ill-informed. Would you not think Dragan.

To be honest, i would consider it to be ill-informed if Emmet was just reciting stuff he had heard. As it is he clearly said that he got the best results with Mono from taking the dosage he did.

Me? I've done the same....taken up to 15 to 20 grams of mono before and after workouts at times. Why? Because i'm curious. As we all know there are lots of studies out there that are half assed and incomplete....so i just tend to use myself as a subject and carry my conclusions forward.

As such, Emmet didn't really say "take this and do that" he just gave his own experiences.

Transform

Patto wrote: »

IMO I think creatine, glutamine, whey etc. are protein supplements in the same way as you could consider various refined sugars as carbohydrate supplements. Except unlike with sugar there is no evidence that protein supplementation is in any way harmful. In fact the evidence is very much to the contrary, there are numerous benefits to protein supplementation.

While you cannot dismiss "the long term effects" argument completely all these protein supplements have been widely used for 10-15 years now and there aren't even tenuous links to damage to the heart, Kidney or liver.

The irony of human conditioning is unreal sometimes. No one bats an eyelid at someone downing a can of coke with a 10 spoonful shot of sugar, yet mention a protein supplement and the comparisons with steroids and drugs are never far behind.

Exactly - i wouldn't even consider supplements if i was not training as much as i do.

Beginners look for the short cut yet will never bother to get the basics right so will always be dreaming about what could be their best shape.

amazingemmet

Reg'stoy wrote: »

If you had included the quote I was refering to, you would have seen that the poster had said that the recommended amount on the label as in 5gms is useless so he says up it to 20gms

Just as a reference on this one, If you look at any creatine product in shops nearly all of them will have a different reccomended dosage and cycling guide.

Off the top of my head I know the "york" brand reccommends a loading dosage of 5gms 10-12 times a day for two weeks and a normal dosage of 15gms, "Nutrition-X" Reccomends 5gms in the morning and 5gms either after training or the evening and there's more disparity between the various brands which one is right?

Creatines effects on renal function

I wasn't bother looking for any papers on dosage response as I haven't got time, But I can remember seeing one with dosages ranging from 5gms to 100gms/day with no changes in health markers bar elevated creatine and creatinine(sp?) levels.

But as dragan has said I was only saying what works for me.

Hanley

Reg'stoy wrote: »

Incidentially the amount they gave of 20gms for 6 weeks where I seemingly shot myself in the foot was for studies into Congestive heart failure, the amount quoted for Enhanced athletic performance was 5-20 for 4-7 days with a maintenance level of 10gms for 21 days which you failed to mention, a far cry from 40gms. But lets not get bogged down in figures..

What relevance does the reason it was given or used for have? I thought we were discussing the dangers of "high" doses. I'm pretty sure your body's not gonna differentiate between creatine for heart failure and creatine for muscle growth. But maybe you disagree?

Have you ever used creatine? What results have you gotten from using 5g per day if you have?

You quoted the below, as a point to back up your assertion that one should not take above the "recommended" does...

High-dose creatine use may potentially damage your:

Kidneys
Liver
Heart
It's unknown what kind of effect taking creatine has over the long term, especially on teens or younger children. Dosage levels vary widely, depending on which product you use and how much creatine you take.

Look at what is says, it MAY POTENTIALLY cause damage, but it is unknown. Do you think that maybe they're just covering themselves from future lawsuits in case 20 years from now creatine is actually found to be harmful?

These studies that you see and quote are the most ultra-conservative tests and conclusions you could possibly imagine. Even when they're 99% sure of something they'll STILL insert a line that says there may be potential unknown effects, as an insurance policy. Creatine is so widly studied at this stage I'd be fairly confident that at least one of the numerous studies done would have found something bad if it existed.

If these potential negatives still exist then surely you'd be taking a completely anti-creatine stance since it's such an unknown instead of a moderate "follow the label" stance?

Reg'stoy

Hanley wrote: »

What relevance does the reason it was given or used for have? I thought we were discussing the dangers of "high" doses. I'm pretty sure your body's not gonna differentiate between creatine for heart failure and creatine for muscle growth. But maybe you disagree?

Have you ever used creatine? What results have you gotten from using 5g per day if you have?

You quoted the below, as a point to back up your assertion that one should not take above the "recommended" does...

High-dose creatine use may potentially damage your:

Kidneys
Liver
Heart
It's unknown what kind of effect taking creatine has over the long term, especially on teens or younger children. Dosage levels vary widely, depending on which product you use and how much creatine you take.

Look at what is says, it MAY POTENTIALLY cause damage, but it is unknown. Do you think that maybe they're just covering themselves from future lawsuits in case 20 years from now creatine is actually found to be harmful?

These studies that you see and quote are the most ultra-conservative tests and conclusions you could possibly imagine. Even when they're 99% sure of something they'll STILL insert a line that says there may be potential unknown effects, as an insurance policy. Creatine is so widly studied at this stage I'd be fairly confident that at least one of the numerous studies done would have found something bad if it existed.

If these potential negatives still exist then surely you'd be taking a completely anti-creatine stance since it's such an unknown instead of a moderate "follow the label" stance?

The lady doth protest too much, me thinks!! :D:D

I apologise most sincerely Dr. (sic) Hanley, I will in future of course take your word over industry standards and other medical professionals.

As for taking an anti-creatine stance sir, now inch forward, are you sitting comfortably, yes, good man. Now I'm typing this slowly just for you, seeing as I'm explaining this yet again. I did not at any stage give out about taking creatine, I originally asked Jimmy why he put in his caveat (which he answered and Thank you for that Jimmy) in addition to this I also expressed an opinion as to taking high doses of a product which happened to be creatine it could have been coaldust and I still would have asked the question about taking more than the recommended dose, I'm not goin too fast am I.

I quoted the article about creatine because Emmet had posted about this product leading me to query his post (Emmet too has answered my question and Thank you also sir). I have since explained why I used the metaphor of over taking painkillers or 8 neurofen as you so kindly said, as to why I considered someone overtaking the recommended dose of anything as bad.

I posted the article in my first post because having read up on the subject of said supplements, I wondered are they of any benefit. I finished that post by saying I had no problem with Jimmy taking supplements (including creatine as that after all is the title of this tread) and also that people should be able to able to read all sides of the discussion.

You see Hanley, I view this; the open expression of opinions whether you like them or not as being at the very core of boards.

Jimmy Bottlehead

Following on from the above highly literate discussion, I'll wreck the buzz and proclaim both RAM and CellX as tasting like Gods nectar. Can't we all just drink some RAM and get along?

Hanley

Reg'stoy wrote: »

The lady doth protest too much, me thinks!! :D:D

I apologise most sincerely Dr. (sic) Hanley, I will in future of course take your word over industry standards and other medical professionals.

What are you talking about now? I never said you should take my word over anyones. I never claimed medical credentials. I said to be skeptical of the conclusions drawn from studies.

As for taking an anti-creatine stance sir, now inch forward, are you sitting comfortably, yes, good man. Now I'm typing this slowly just for you, seeing as I'm explaining this yet again. I did not at any stage give out about taking creatine, I originally asked Jimmy why he put in his caveat (which he answered and Thank you for that Jimmy) in addition to this I also expressed an opinion as to taking high doses of a product which happened to be creatine it could have been coaldust and I still would have asked the question about taking more than the recommended dose, I'm not goin too fast am I.

No, I think I'm managing to keep up. Thanks for typing slowly. I shall return the favour. My opinion was that you're posts were unnecessarily conservative. Almost to the point of ignorance and the belief of urban myths. Am I too allowed to express an opinion?

I quoted the article about creatine because Emmet had posted about this product leading me to query his post (Emmet too has answered my question and Thank you also sir). I have since explained why I used the metaphor of over taking painkillers or 8 neurofen as you so kindly said, as to why I considered someone overtaking the recommended dose of anything as bad.

I don't know if I'm understanding correctly, but it is your opinion that taking over the manufactures recommended amount is "dangerous"? I'm just wondering what the basis for this assertion is. Is your knowledge of creatine, how it works and it's possible side effects limited to what random googles returned?

You seem to have some how made the leap to high levels of creatine being as toxic and dangerous as high levels of painkillers. Which afaik has been shown to be dangerous, unlike creatine.

I'm refering to this post...

Fair enough maybe pain killers was wrong metaphor, but I was hopefully trying to get across that we all know taking above the recommended dose of any painkiller is very dangerous. This being so, I felt is was also wrong to make the statement that taking as I now realise 8 times the manufacturers recommended amount of 5gms (his figures) was in my opinion, again just my opinion, also dangerous ok dangerous may be overly dramatic but at the very least ill-informed

I posted the article in my first post because having read up on the subject of said supplements, I wondered are they of any benefit. I finished that post by saying I had no problem with Jimmy taking supplements (including creatine as that after all is the title of this tread) and also that people should be able to able to read all sides of the discussion.

You see Hanley, I view this; the open expression of opinions whether you like them or not as being at the very core of boards.

You wonder if supplements and creatine are effective? And I'm guessing the only way you'd accept that they is that if you had scientific proof of it? Funny thing tho.. When it comes to muscle and strength building, science almost always lags behind and only ever "proves" what has already been shown to work empirically. I would state with absolute confidence that super dosing creatine post training (15-20g) is far more effective when it comes to strength and size than 5g per day. This is something I stated quite some time ago. Subsequently I believe Emmet agreed with me. I know there have been a few others who have tried it with similar results.

In fact, I know when steroids (I believe Test was the one mentioned) were first being used by athletes there were studies conducted to see if they had any effect on muscle building. The conclusions of that study was that they had no benefit. Obviously that is complete horsesh!t. Just like how supplementing with creatine and protein has shown no positive effect on muscle building. These studies are so poorly designed that they're basically worthless when it comes to deciding the validity of use of the substance being studied.

Opinions are fine. It's nice when they're well researched and informed tho. And when it comes to what works under the bar, empirical evidence is extremely important too. But maybe it's easier to just sit here and discuss it rather than get out there and try it...

Dragan

Jimmy Bottlehead wrote: »

Following on from the above highly literate discussion, I'll wreck the buzz and proclaim both RAM and CellX as tasting like Gods nectar. Can't we all just drink some RAM and get along?

Oh it's true......if you have Orange and Strawberry RAM you should mix them!

It's Strange.....but it's good!*

*A T-ha original....i can take no credit for this joyous creation!

Reg'stoy

Reg'stoy wrote: »

I apologise most sincerely Dr. (sic) Hanley, I will in future of course take your word over industry standards and other medical professionals.

Hanley wrote: »

What are you talking about now? I never said you should take my word over anyones. I never claimed medical credentials. I said to be skeptical of the conclusions drawn from studies.

Breaking news

Taking more than the recommended dose of Creatine may lead to an inability to recognise sarcasm.

:D:D

Dragan

Reg,

can you keep the argument on topic and attack the posts and not the poster?

This ain't After Hours dude!

Cheers.