making money online. cash or tourney, etc!

ditpoker

from what i can tell boards has its fair share of people making money from either cash or tourneys or both.

ollie is usually seen going deep in tourneys, requiem4a_rooney_dives seems to make a packet, nicnicnic i think is stt's and tourneys too

hj, fuzzbox, etc would appear to be predominantly cash players and making lots of $$$ from it.

personally i am rubbish at cash, i cant get my head around it. and whatever money i have made online has all come from tourney wins and i build my bankroll playing stt's only to blow it playing cash.

how sustainable is tourney play as a money maker. how does bankroll management differ for tourney players? i know for cash 20-40 buyins per level is considered very good, but would it be double for tourneys, or what would people suggest?

Iago

You can make money playing STTs but it gets very repetitive very quickly. It's generally ABC poker and knowing how to play with either a short stack/ when short handed will see make a reasonable amount out of it. Like you, I just can't get my head around cash games, they're too unpredictable (and yes I know STTs have greater variance) maybe I should say I'm too unpredictable.

Anyway it depends on how much money you want to make playing poker, I play when I've nothing better to do and I only play at lower levels. Predominantly $22-$33 with a scattering of $55s (probably around 5-10%). I averaged $8.50 per STT last year which works out at around $25-$30 an hour 4 tabling. I think if I actually concentrated instead of playing while watching football or TV shows I could probably increase that significantly.

For MTTs though I think it's a lot tougher to consistently make money, you have to put in a lot of hours for very little reward sometimes and you need to get lucky at least once or twice to put you in a position to challenge. So I guess it depends on whether you want to make an easy $200-$300 for 10/15 hours work a week, really learn how to play cash and make multiples of that amount or chase the big wins in the MTTs.

As I'm playing for the enjoyment more than the cash I'm happy enough with sticking to STTs.

shoutman

I used to be the same as you Jeff. Consistantly building the BR up through sixpac sit n goes, then donking it all away at the lower levels of cash games.
I think the hardest thing I found when playing cash games was having to sit there for long periods of time waiting for a playable hand. With sit and goes there is going to be a difinitive ending, you will win or lose and you will get to a show down. Where as when you single table low limits its very much patience patience patience and hope to get some money out of it.

I found playing low limits an awful lot easier when multi tabling as it takes away a lot of the boredom factor and now I must say I enjoy playing cash an awful lot more then I ever did when playing sit and goes. I think the challenge is more in cash games and yes the rewards can be greater imo.

I still play the odd MTT but as Iago said it is essential to get lucky a few times in order to go deep and there is nothing worse then playing for five hours and bubbling or creeping into the money and just getting your buy in back, it is extremely frustrating. That said, one big score in an online mtt and you are laughing all the way to a bigger bankroll.

Ollieboy

Big Question……

This is something I’ve also been thinking about. I start playing online in mid 2005 and start mostly with STT, $10 and $25 games, I always kept a bankroll of $400 and when I got to $800 I used to withdraw my winnings. This continues until I won the Speed Poker, where I moved up top $50 stt etc. At this time I played tourneys and had my first decent result around Oct 2005 for 3.6k. I than mostly played $20 rebuys etc and $50 freeze outs and start to play bigger live buy-in events of €500 etc.

2006 was a funny year, as I start of well at MTT’s and STT’s (mostly playing 100/200 stts etc) and than moved to cash where I start well at 2/4, 3/6 etc. But after about 3 months I had loss nearly all my winnings on cash and quickly return to MTT’s. Around this time I totally stop playing STT’s and I hate these games today due to the boredom factor and the ABC type of play required.

Also during 2006 I moved to different sites and this allowed me to move up the levels in MTT’s, i.e. $50/100 rebuys and $200 freeze outs etc. Around this time I had a great run winning 80k in about 3 months from MTT’s etc and this continue for most of 2007 where I was having one big result each month and building up a very decent bankroll.

I currently play all the big MTT’s anything up to 1k buy-in on most sites.

During 2007 I again tried cash and was clearing 1k a week playing 5/10 etc, this would be for 20 hrs etc. This last for 12 weeks and around this time I abandon tourneys and kept a 20 buy-in bankroll online for cash games. But this win rate didn’t last and I again drifted back to playing MTT’s where I was more comfortable and could manage my bankroll better by not losing as much over a longer period and taking the odd big score to put me ahead.

As for bankroll management for MTT’s, I’ve a good bankroll but don’t really control it tightly when playing MTT’s. I usually play what I want when I want and my decision to play a game is determined by the structure, prize pool, standard of play expect, buy-in size and my current online cash available to invest. But I’ve no problem in reloading so I tend to play what I want.

Also last year I moved away from playing satellites, this help to improve my cash flow big time.

One of my targets for 2008 is to move to cash full-time as I believe its more regular income and will suit me better in the future with the amount of time I’ll have available for poker etc. I’m currently back playing 2/4, 3/6 and 5/10 and plan to build the bankroll to move up the levels and take a regular income from the game. I’ve always found cash games beatable and just need to put my mind into it more and stop tilting and getting bored. I have found myself getting bored at MTT’s lately as its all about the gap concept in hands more and more bad players have made it harder to win as you’ve to dog people more and take on more races. I always think it’s possible to get your money in ahead and not take races, but due to the size of fields and the speed of the blinds online this is now impossible.

So my advice is simple, I’ve made a good income from MTT’s and it is possible to make a living, but there is already loads of people doing this and the standard and variance is very high. I believe that cash is more consistent way of making money for good players and the skill advantage is easier to use when playing so deep. Also the fish seem to be plentiful even at the higher levels and a lot of players make the same mistake as me and overplay marginal hands in cash compare to tournaments.

Mtt’s have been very profitable for me over the last 3 years nearly double my own income and allowing me to take great holidays etc, but I think cash games would have been even more profitable and made me a better player in general.

Just my 2 cent

Marq

move up levels.

cooker3

I built up my online roll originally by playing mtts at bugsy, lol such a laughabley soft site.
Then I moved to cash last year.
I now have no idea how I ever played the mtt originally, they drive me mad the rare times I play them now. Cash is so much better imo. Far more interesting and far more stable and it also makes you a better more rounded player, well it forces you to become one anyway

Slash/ED

What shoutman said. Never ever ever ever play low limits cash unless you're playing at least 4 tables imo or the grind and boredom will eat your soul. Playing enough tables keeps you sufficently interested for you to get at the very easy money there is to offer before you crack. That's possibly alot of micro cash game players who convert from being micro sng players problem as it's comparitively boring and requires alot more patience.

cooker3

Lol, I must have been the only person to 1 table 25nl and take it seriousley

Devil's Fuel

Sorry for not knowing but what are MTT's & STT's?

Thanks

zuutroy

Multi table tournament, single table tournament

Devil's Fuel

Silly me!

shoutman

cooker3 wrote: »

Lol, I must have been the only person to 1 table 25nl and take it seriousley

You and Valor....

RasTa

Don't waste your time trying to be honest. If you are, start with a min of $1k and play the $38 STT's and 18 man on stars(I prefer the turbos). Also play the $55, 50k and 25k daily MTT's

Requiem4adream

ditpoker wrote: »

from what i can tell boards has its fair share of people making money from either cash or tourneys or both.

ollie is usually seen going deep in tourneys, requiem4a_rooney_dives seems to make a packet, nicnicnic i think is stt's and tourneys too

hj, fuzzbox, etc would appear to be predominantly cash players and making lots of $$$ from it.

personally i am rubbish at cash, i cant get my head around it. and whatever money i have made online has all come from tourney wins and i build my bankroll playing stt's only to blow it playing cash.

how sustainable is tourney play as a money maker. how does bankroll management differ for tourney players? i know for cash 20-40 buyins per level is considered very good, but would it be double for tourneys, or what would people suggest?

Personally i think what it boils down to is commitments and responsibilities. I have 0 of either. This is the perfect starting point to being an mtt player. When things are going well (playing good, running good) there's nothing i'd rather do. This week i've won the $5 rebuy, $10 rebuy, made a seat for EPT Dortmund and made some other final tables. In this week alone i've probably made more than i would by working 6 months in a decent job.

On the flip side when things are going poorly it can be very frustrating. Playing long hours for no reward day after day can get soul destroying, not to mention expensive!! As well due to the extremely long hours i find my eyes are sore a lot of the time and sometimes look really baggy. Not cool!

It really depends on a couple of things - what your goals are in poker and your responsibilities in life. If you want to grind out a good living on mtt it is doable. Play within your roll, pick your games smartly. Are you on stars? I can PM you a list of games to suit your roll if you want?

As for responsibilities, there's no way i could do this if i had kids etc. It's wayyyyy too time consuming and volatile. Istruggle to find time for my current girlfriend, although she doesnt mind watching (and staying quiet!) Just a personal belief but if/when someone is crazy enough to have kids with me i'll need something more stable and regularised than mtt!

luckylucky

I play sngs, plo and nl and even occasionally fixed limit and every now and then an mtt.

I wouldn't like to rely on mtts for an income but as req4adream says he has no responsibilities and the rewards can be massive.

I think the highest proportion of big earners online are in cash games, but you can still do very handsomely in sngs and in some ways it's perhaps the safest way to build a roll, it's much harder for things to spiral out of control in sngs as compared to cash games imo.

So maybe it's most important to simply play what you enjoy playing the most.

btw are there other full-timers that play sngs, nl and plo. I know some of you play both nl and plo but not sure if any of ye play all 3?

Mr.Plough

i enjoy playing cash so much more and spew away the profit in mtts and satellites. best of both.

stts cause me to die

nicnicnic

I always played 6 man stts could never handle 10/9 man but for some reason never tired of sixman. I say as Lucky that stts are probably a good bankroll starter anyone should be able to run up a small deposit at stts to a bankroll for .50/100 1/2 nlh fast enough. As for people who play mtts for a living online, well they get my up most respect, how they can do it is beyond me, the strength of mind needed for the variance is huge but I have my suspicions that they are all masochists

luckylucky

nicnicnic wrote: »

I say as Lucky that stts are probably a good bankroll starter

not just a bankroll starter

bantee

nicnicnic wrote: »

I always played 6 man stts could never handle 10/9 man but for some reason never tired of sixman.

Why do you think this is the case? I find it pretty handy to dominate tables in 6 man stts but whenever I play the 10 man, I seem to crash out earlier.
I just think more patience is needed for the 10 seater ones and its more difficult for the LAG players, probably because the more players you have at the table leads to more non-believers that actually you have a decent hand.

I find the 10 man stts are good tournament practice though for the live scene. You don't hear of any 6 seater big tourneys organised in this country, probably due to space constraints.

shoutman

Also a reason why you may be burning your BR when you switch over to cash games is because its so much easier to tilt of a large % of your roll when playing cash as all you click is reload and push, when playing sngs, you have to find a table register for it, wait for it to start, then wait for a bad hand and hope you suck out. Sooooo much easier to tilt with cash games lol.

Lao Lao

Requiem4adream wrote: »

It really depends on a couple of things - what your goals are in poker and your responsibilities in life. If you want to grind out a good living on mtt it is doable. Play within your roll, pick your games smartly. Are you on stars? I can PM you a list of games to suit your roll if you want?

I'm on stars, could you PM me a good list please?

phantom_lord

cash, not close.

ArmaniJeanss

Cash has probably the best potential to win the most money, but some people are just mentally unsuited to the grind.

Personally I've always found STTs the best for a slow, steady income.
And there is nothing more exciting in poker than an STT bubble.

LuckyLloyd

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