Graduate Entry Medicine programmes

PlasteredParis

I'm considering going back to college to do medicine. I missed out on it first time round by a few points and although I enjoyed my degree (finishing this year), I still regret not applying myself in my LC.

I had hoped that by now graduate entry would be well established but I'm not sure where this is at. I've heard all sorts of confusing reports.

TCD aren't going to do graduate entry.
UCD started last year and then stopped this year. (They say that they will be enrolling 20 students this year)
NUIG won't be starting for the foreseeable future
UCC don't seem to know.

RCSI have increased their fees again.
UL started last year but I've been told that they don't have any medical staff and are relying on GP's.

What would you recommend? Help!

Echani

I'm in the RCSI graduate programme. I recommend it

Haven't heard about any fee increases, it was €13K this year for the EU students, the rest is covered by the government and EU. I'm happy to answer any questions you have (anything to distract me from next week's exams) but I'm not sure what sort of help you're looking for, though if you haven't sat the GAMSAT yet I'd suggest worrying about that and colleges later

Right now the colleges that are supposed to have GEP places in 2008 are RCSI, UL, UCD and UCC. I haven't heard about how many, though I'd imagine RCSI are sticking to 30.

tallaght01

Can you not apply to Irish medical schools as a mature/graduate entry student and just get lumped in with the other entrants?

When I applied to med school, I had a degree. I got interviewed and accepted. Then I was chucked in with everyone else.

That used to be the way it was done in ireland.

Do you have to go into the GEP if you have a degree? Or can you elect do the full length course.

What if your degree was in, say, French literature? Would you still have to do the course in shortened time?

Echani

They still have mature entry into the 5-year courses, but I think (and this could be completely wrong) what your degree was in and whether or not you have a masters / PhD plays a fairly substantial role, and you're also interviewed, which they opted against doing for the GEPs last year. I didn't qualify for mature entry into medicine in UCD last year because I'm under 23 - not mature enough, apparently.

You can elect to do the full length course, the hoops you have to jump through are just a bit different.

What if your degree was in, say, French literature? Would you still have to do the course in shortened time?

I'm not sure really. My degree is in philosophy so I'm not sure if I'd have had any chance of getting into the 5 year course without doing something more relevant to medicine for a few years.

One of the reasons they've been tossing about as justification for the new graduate programmes is that it allows people to make a "mature decision" about whether or not they want to do medicine, regardless of what they put on their CAO a few years previously.

PlasteredParis

Thanks, Echani & Tallagh01.

I'm also trying to avoid focusing on preparing for exams by considering what next and if it is all really worth it. The thought that I might qualify for a graduate entry programme is good motivation for me to do well in my finals. (I have the GAMSAT sorted from last year.) However, I'm not sure which medical schools will be offering it this September and how many places will be available.

I'd hate to think that I meet the qualification std (2.1 degree + GAMSAT) and miss out again in another points race.

As I see it the following places will be available

RCSI - 30
UL - 30?
UCD - 20
UCC - ?

Which will have the biggest demand? Which should I put as my 1,2,3?
I've heard that UL's programme is medicine lite but beggars can't be choosers.

Apparently I don't qualify for mature entry - I was given two reasons (a) not old enough (b) I'd be eligible for competition in GEM programmes and so not eligible for consideration under mature entry even if I was 1 year older!

I think it's all a conspiracy to keep me out of med school!

tallaght01

PlasteredParis wrote: »

Which will have the biggest demand? Which should I put as my 1,2,3?
I've heard that UL's programme is medicine lite but beggars can't be choosers.

!

Mate, don't worry about the med school choice too much, in terms of what they teach.

IN my opinon, you do most of your learning after you leave med school.

I trained in the UK, and have worked in a few different regions, where most of the docs are local graduates.

Even when I worked in Oxford, most of their docs were oxford grads. They were exactly the same as the guys I worked with in Scotland and London and South Africa and New Zealand. Having said that, the best doc I've ever worked with was an oxford grad, but he did win the gold medal for medicine in his finals.

The 2 worst docs I've ever worked with were from oxford and trinity.

I'm just saying that med school does not a doctor make.

Pick your school based on social, financial and geographic factors, I reckon.

PlasteredParis

tallaght01 wrote: »

Mate, don't worry about the med school choice too much, in terms of what they teach.

IN my opinon, you do most of your learning after you leave med school.
.

Point taken. I just want to maximise my chances of getting an offer. I'm not sure I can take another hope being dashes 'cos their are 500 applicants for 100 places

tallaght01

I agree, pic the school where you've least competition for places.

As an aside, have you spoken to the careers guidance counsellors at your current uni.

I got in as a graduate. I spoke to my careers guidance guy at my original uni. He helped me with my personal statement (made me rewrite it about 5 or 6 times). He also gave me mock interviews, which turned out to be pretty realistic. He definitely played a big part in me getting a place. Worth a try anyway.

Echani

PlasteredParis wrote: »

I'd hate to think that I meet the qualification std (2.1 degree + GAMSAT) and miss out again in another points race.

Well if your GAMSAT is above the cutoff and you have your 2.1 degree, I don't see why you wouldn't get a place somewhere, especially since there's currently no interviews. I was pretty much able to choose between RCSI or UL last year when the results came out, but I guess the competition might be a bit stiffer this year, and a lot of the Dublin grads might prefer to be in UCD which won't have a huge number of places.. Anyway, that probably doesn't help. As long as you meet the requirements, you should get in *somewhere*

Like tallaght01 said, what med school you get into doesn't make a huge amount of difference at the end of the day. I based my preference on the fact that I'd rather stay in Dublin than go to Limerick, there was no info about what UL would and wouldn't have in terms of facilities.

PlasteredParis

I don't know what the GAMSAT cut off will be but it is encouraging that you'd a choice last year. Hopefully the same will apply this year. I'm finishing in UCD in the summer so my preference would be to sample another university so I'd prefer UCC.

eth0_

tallaght01 wrote: »

What if your degree was in, say, French literature? Would you still have to do the course in shortened time?

No, it has to be a science or medical related degree iirc. Same in the UK. If you have any other kind of degree you can apply for the 5-6 year course but you stand no chance of getting in unless you have A levels or leaving cert science subjects.

btw I can't believe there are NO interviews! It makes me think these degrees aren't being taken as seriously as they should. It is a big step to take as it is such an intensive course and of course the financial commitment. It will be interesting to see the drop out rates for these courses...

PlasteredParis

That's strange. I spoke with UCD Medicine last summer and the only thing they could tell me for definite was that for GEM you could have any 2.1 degree and it did not have to be a science degree. Although, I suppose you'd need to have some science to score highly in the GAMSAT.

Echani

PlasteredParis wrote: »

That's strange. I spoke with UCD Medicine last summer and the only thing they could tell me for definite was that for GEM you could have any 2.1 degree and it did not have to be a science degree. Although, I suppose you'd need to have some science to score highly in the GAMSAT.

For graduate entry, as opposed to mature entry,that's true - your degree does not have to be scientific. And as needing science, like I said my degree's in philosophy and my GAMSAT score wasn't too shabby, so anything's possible

PlasteredParis

Cool! Thxs for advice.

Chunky Monkey

Dunno if this is relevant for you or not but according to the RCSI website, if you have a degree you're not able to apply for the five/six course.

Good luck with your application mate. Hope it goes well for you

Oh I've also heard that you can apply for the Trinity course if you have the points requirement. I'm not sure if it's like at RCSI though where you have to have done the LC within three years prior to applying.

PlasteredParis

That is interesting, Chunky. Someone in UCD said (in a "don't quote me on this but I think.." sort of way) that when they'd their GEM programme fully running, Graduates would have to apply through the graduate entry route only and that people with degrees would be prohibited from entering undergraduate medicine as a mature student.

That seemed fair provided that the GEM programmes were not capped at ridiculously low numbers like their undergraduate programme.

eth0_

I don't think it is fair to force people into GEM just because they already have a degree!
GEM is quite a different course to the regular 5-6 year degree; they are paying 5 or 6 years into 4 years of study, so it is very intensive and there are a lot less holidays.

So if you are a parent, or simply do not think such an intensive degree is for you, you shouldn't be forced into it, imo.

PlasteredParis

eth0_ wrote: »

I don't think it is fair to force people into GEM just because they already have a degree!
GEM is quite a different course to the regular 5-6 year degree; they are paying 5 or 6 years into 4 years of study, so it is very intensive and there are a lot less holidays.

So if you are a parent, or simply do not think such an intensive degree is for you, you shouldn't be forced into it, imo.

I don't know, this seems reasonable to me. How many people will want to do a 4 year degree and follow this with a 6 year medicine course + 1 year intern + 7 years as a Junior doc. To be attractive/competitive graduate entry programmes have to be 4 year max.

Any rate if you want to enjoy a less intensive medicine course as a graduate there is nothing stopping you enrolling in the undergrad prog.

Chunky Monkey

eth0_ wrote: »

I don't think it is fair to force people into GEM just because they already have a degree!
GEM is quite a different course to the regular 5-6 year degree; they are paying 5 or 6 years into 4 years of study, so it is very intensive and there are a lot less holidays.

So if you are a parent, or simply do not think such an intensive degree is for you, you shouldn't be forced into it, imo.

There are quite a few colleges in the UK that allow you to apply to GEM, five year and six year course together if you wanted. I've talked to a lot of people about this. The five year course is apparently a lot less intensive thus more ideal for parents. I agree I think it would be better to offer both. If one wanted to in Ireland I suppose you could repeat the leaving and try for Trinity. Plus judging by the standard of past papers the leaving cert is a lot easier now

dubcitycentre

hey Plasterdparis,
RCSI, UCD, UL and UCC are all offering GEM programmes but u would want to hurry up as applications are drawing to a close. I think u might have already missed the date for application to sit the gamsat exam but there they do accept late applications... type "gamsat ireland" into google and the website comes up. Its 300 euro and u will need a credit card to pay it. U have to apply to the actual courses through CAO, the closing date of which is early feb so u should get ur skates on for that too.
I have also applied and have ordered some sample papers and stuff. U have a study plan or what are you gonna do?

Chunky Monkey

Somebody was asking me about GEM courses here on a UK forum but I wasn't able to answer many of their questions so I told them to PM you Echani. Do you put your choices down in order of preference like for the undergrad courses?

Echani

Last year when the CAO was due in, the courses hadn't been announced. There was only a GM001 course code to put in, and we received a letter to put our preferences down when the colleges were announced - I'm sure there's proper course codes this year, so like anything else in the CAO put it in order of preference.

stardust_dublin

hey echani what was the cutoff point for gamsat last year? Like for example, what overall percentage did you have to get in order to get offered a place? i think i heard it was 61...is that true? Is it hard to get a good grade in the gamsat?

Echani

I think it was 61; I know of people who got 61 and not all of them got offers, so I take it that was the baseline. I'm not sure what the difference was in cutoff between the two colleges.

Whether or not it's hard to get a good grade in the gamsat is pretty subjective I had no science background beyond the Leaving, so I had a lot of work to do in the months before it to get up to date. People who know their science stuff already just need to do a bit of revision and get to grips with the test format and essays. It's worth doing too much work for the exam though, there's a fair gap between tests and entry cycles.

dubcitycentre

apparently the cut off for UL last year was 59...so it says on the website anyway. Maybe we have a better chance this year since there are more colleges offering more places or maybe theres a lesser chance as it seems to be more publicised than it was last year so theres probably more people applying...anyway good luck to all!

bloomblobs

Basically i know discussing financial situations isn't always information you want to share, but im goin into my science degree in september, and i know its early to be thinking about fees for graduate entry medicine but i need ta know its doable! how do most students fund their graduate course?? loans, and pay them back throughout the year from a part-time job? i see in england you only have ta fund the first year, and the government funds the other 3, does that apply to us in ireland? doctors of the future, hell yeh

blipp

I have borrowed my fees from the BOI. Can borrow up to 78k I think and you pay it back over up to 9 years. Interest is about 6.9%. I am only borrowing fees but the banks have a provision to borrow money for living as well. It's a horrible amount of money. You don't have to start paying it back until you have graduated.

Kevster

Simple question: How can anyone in this country even afford to do medicine now? ... ...or are there still rich folk around? oh wait, the pervious reply answers my question. That's a huge loan though. I wouldn't want that burden over my head for the coming few decades.

drzhivago

blipp wrote: »

I have borrowed my fees from the BOI. Can borrow up to 78k I think and you pay it back over up to 9 years. Interest is about 6.9%. I am only borrowing fees but the banks have a provision to borrow money for living as well. It's a horrible amount of money. You don't have to start paying it back until you have graduated.

you wont survive on just the fee money you will need to eat and have a place to live

Little opprtunity for paid employment

It will be very expensive AND as working hours come down little opportunity to pay back

I fear we may end up like states where people choose specialties on occasion because of the earning potential to pay off loans

Remember in US they are an attending after 4 years in many specialties earning big wedge

You will be a junior doctor here for 10-12 years at least if planning on a hospital career and you will have a lot of expenses in that time too making it difficult to pay off loans

eth0_

Maybe it has changed recently but the NHS actually pay you a bursary if you do the GEP medicine course. Although I presume this means you are tied in to work for the NHS for a certain time after you qualify.

The thought of being 80k in debt would really put me off.

QueenOfLeon

Whats the difference between doing medicine as a post grad or as a mature student? Say if you dont have the leaving cert points can you even do it as a mature student? And whats it like in terms of cost?

eth0_

I don't think there are any medical courses in Ireland that will accept mature students unless you had the requisite amount of points when you did your leaving (i.e close to 600) and did chemistry for LC also.

If you don't have this you'll have to either do the leaving cert again, or do a science degree and then apply for the 4 year graduate entry medicine program.

Eerie

eth0_ wrote: »

If you don't have this you'll have to either do the leaving cert again, or do a science degree and then apply for the 4 year graduate entry medicine program.

You don't need a science degree for GEP - any degree will do as long as you got a 2.1 or higher

eth0_

Many of the UK courses require a science/health degree. I just noticed Notts accept a 2:2 in any discipline... I think you'd be shooting yourself in the foot applying for medicine with a lower 2nd class hons degree tbh! Especially if it's not science/health based!

bloomblobs

i dont mind having ta take out a big loan if i end up where i want to be. at least il be doing what i want, instead of being stuck in a job i hate for the rest of my life, which alot of people are. i think its gona be 48,000 for the four years, ah well has ta be done. just wanted to make sure it actually could be done ! thanks a mil

laika72

I'm a first yr psychology student and I've realised over the last year that this isn't the course for me and, in fact, I would love to study medicine.

I got 545 in my leaving cert and despite studying biology for almost the two years I decided to drop it after the mocks because I had too much going on with 8 honours subjects. I didn't think I would need it as a science subject is not a requirement for psych. Bad move.

How should I go about getting into medicine now?
If the only option is as a graduate, is there any type of funding available, such as grants etc as I really don't have the money for it?

Please help!

haemfire

laika72 wrote: »

I'm a first yr psychology student and I've realised over the last year that this isn't the course for me and, in fact, I would love to study medicine.

I got 545 in my leaving cert and despite studying biology for almost the two years I decided to drop it after the mocks because I had too much going on with 8 honours subjects. I didn't think I would need it as a science subject is not a requirement for psych. Bad move.

How should I go about getting into medicine now?
If the only option is as a graduate, is there any type of funding available, such as grants etc as I really don't have the money for it?

Please help!

look at doing your GAMSAT prior to final year, you will have enough going on, also look into gamsat uk which are held in september.

You could apply to study medicine in prague(charles university) or hungary (www.studyhungary.hu) this year, it's not too late and the fees are about 8/9k year, and the courses are delivered in english, flights are available from dublin through ryanair for about €60 return

think HPAT is out of the q since you have done your LC prior to this year

tbh, another two years in college if you are doing a three year course is not too long, i'd say stick it out do the gamsat next year and if you want build up some work experience as a HCA which is important if you want to apply for grad med in england.

Dont worry about it, i'm doing my thesis now in final bioscience, and the topic my thesis is based on was discovered by a guy who joined the navy underage, did a phd, then med school and qualified as a doc at 32.

also check out www.newmediamedicine.com

btw no funding is available for grad med, you have to cough up 13k each year for fee's alone , altough some bank offer graduate loans for GEM programs but you will graduate with about 80k debt if you live away from home

Eerie

haemfire wrote: »

btw no funding is available for grad med, you have to cough up 13k each year for fee's alone , altough some bank offer graduate loans for GEM programs but you will graduate with about 80k debt if you live away from home

hmm... I don't know if I would agree with that statement! The full fees for the course are around €25,000 per year and are subject to increases each year. The Government pays €12,500 for you and you pay the rest. Each of the colleges offering GEP medicine have a scheme with one of the banks where you can borrow your remaining fees. Depending on the college, you can also borrow more for living expenses.

Compare this to the €48,000 that the international students have to pay every year and it doesn't seem so bad! There are North Americans in my class who will easily be in €250,000-300,000 debt by the time they're finished! :eek:

laika72

thanks a mill for your posts, you really got me thinking about it.

I'm half thinking now about just resitting my LC, considering it could save me 50k. And thanks, I don't know why I was in such a rush to do it, I'd be in college for years with psych anyway so if the LC doesn't go ahead i'll finish my degree, or I might just take it after the degree.

haemfire

if you do your degree and repeat your LC you will pay fees(7/8k) almost as high as graduate med fees and it ill take 5 years, while grad med is 4 years

as i siad before i think grad med ur best option, try sitting the gamsat in 2nd yr of ur degree if u wanna start med after ur phy degree, or try the gamsat uk which is held in september

eth0_

haemfire wrote: »

You could apply to study medicine in prague(charles university) or hungary (www.studyhungary.hu) this year, it's not too late and the fees are about 8/9k year, and the courses are delivered in english, flights are available from dublin through ryanair for about €60 return

The lectures are in English but the patients you will deal with are NOT, and their registrars and consultants may not be fluent in English either!
Please make this clear for the OP, they will *have* to become FLUENT in Czech quite quickly.

They will also have to then sit extra exams in order to practice medicine in Ireland when they graduate. They may find their foreign training counts against them when it comes to promotion - this has been mentioned on these boards in the past.

haemfire

4000 nchd's in ireland, over half are non-nationals, sure if you graduate from hungary you wont be able to go into neurosurgery or cardiology, but i dont see what is stopping someone having a normal career in hospital medicine or general practice, slovakia actually offer a 4 year medical degree if you have a MSc.

haemfire

eth0_ wrote: »

They will also have to then sit extra exams in order to practice medicine in Ireland when they graduate. They may find their foreign training counts against them when it comes to promotion .

EU qualifications are recognised universally

eth0_

haemfire wrote: »

EU qualifications are recognised universally

WRONG. If you train in any EU country other than the UK, you need to do additional training and exam(s) to be recognised as a doctor in Ireland. I think you can work as a locum but not as a full time doctor.

Example for a GP who trained in the EU but outside Ireland and the UK : http://www.icgp.ie/go/membership/routes_to_membership/equivalent_qualifications