Career in Woodwork Questions!!

craigg2008

Hows it goin,
found this site from searching on google so i thought I'd register and ask some questions if you don't mind,coz it seems yis know what ur are talking about!! Basically I'm 19 and in DCU,but the course I'm doin doesn't have much appeal to me..I'm lookin to get into a proper trade,I want to be a bit more hands on in what I'm doing. So I've signed up for night courses in woodturning in DIT and next year I'm lookin to start furniture making and design in Killester college. I'm wondering if you could help me tho with some things...firstly have you ever come across companies that would take ppl on over the summer months to gain experience in this sort of thing?second,if i was to get the Fetac level 5 after a year in Killester does that really qualify me for anything in furniture?? If any1 could help me that would be deadly,thanks very much!!

Rory123

Hey man. That made me laugh because I was in the exact same boat as you this time 2 years ago!

I was 19 too. I was doing International Business and Languages in DCU myself and although I got through it easily enough, I knew I didn't want any job that was to come out of that degree. I decided that I was going to pack it in before Christmas of 2nd year. So I did my exams in January, passed them all, and said goodbye to Phyllis' paninis and Moodle. Like you I had decided that I was going to make my passion for woodwork into my career (for a few years at least). I spent 3 days knocking on 25 to 30 doors, introducing myself and handing in CVs. In the end I got 3 offers and it turns out I took the best one.
I'm now half way through my apprenticeship in Cabinet making and I absolutely live for Monday mornings!

Cabinet making is finer woodwork like furniture, kitchens, storage areas. Carpentry and joinery is more structural like rooves, stairs, windows and doors, and stuff like skirting boards and arcitraves. You need to decide what area suits you best but from what you posted it seems like Cabinet Making is for you.

Here are some points of advice I really hope you take on...

1) Don't bother with doing courses etc (although night classes are no harm)... Just go into an apprenticeship straight away as that takes long enough (about 5 years). If you like the job and show you have a good aptitude for it you won't have much trouble keeping down a job and progressing. You just have to serve your time and the courses don't seem to be much of a bonus. At the end of the day nothing is more important than having your apprenticeship behind you. You'll be paid through it... First year money is tough, second year is easier, third and fourth year is good.

2)If you want a job more like how woodwork was in school you need to do an apprenticeship in Cabinet Making. In the right company (like mine) you will be making everything from oak beds to vanity units to wardrobes (as well as the odd bit of carpentry). If you would prefer Carpentry and Joinery go for it (I personally wouldn't do it but the money's slightly better and there's more jobs at the minute) although its less romantic and maybe not as rewarding (IMO folks!!!)

3)If you want to do Cabinet Making don't listen to Fás if they try to talk you into Carpentry... they are generally twats and think they have the finger on the button... all of our loyal clients have always had money and always will so we are kept plenty busy and always will be!

4)Try your hardest not to go work in some big factory or a place where all you will be doing is screwing together imported kitchen carcases in some concrete apartment block (but needs must). There are 4 of us, including my boss, as a result I learn and experience more in 1 week than most of my peers would in 1 year!

5) Don't call companies on the phone asking for jobs. Bosses are far more impressed if you knock on the door and ask for 5 minutes of their time... it shows you are motivated.

6) Don't be put off by your age and don't let others put you off. I was told by most bosses I spoke to that I was too old at 19 to start my time. I'm off the job in fás now and out of my class of 14 blokes: one is 36 and married, one is 31, one is 25, one is 23. There are a few who are 21 like me, and the rest are around 19/ 20.

7) If you don't drive already you should start going about it from tomorrow!!! A boss' main concern is that you will be at work each morning, on time. It's a big plus even just to have a licence alone without having a car.

8) You get the job yourself and after a few weeks your boss should take care of getting you registered with Fás (make sure he does though!).

9) Don't let Fás fool you or mess you around. They are the most inefficient organisation in Ireland. For example you are supposed to work with your boss for under a year before you go to Fás for the first time (phase 2) but it is more like 18mths to 2 years at the minute. They tell you it takes 4 years to graduate, in fact it's closer to 5. There's nothing you can do about this, just be prepared for it, it's normal. If you are to be registered in Dublin you can call Fás in Tallaght every 6 or so months and ask for Catherine Meaghar in the Services to Business department to check up on when and where you may be called to Fás... this is up to you, not your boss.

10) Woodturning is a fantastic hobby and like you, I do it in my spare time but unfortunately it will never make me a millionaire. I'd go as far as saying that it will never make me any money at all (apart from maybe the sale of the odd bowl or plate at a craft fair or farmers market).

11) If you think cabinet making is for you, get your hands on a book called A Cabinetmaker's Notebook by James Krenov. At the risk of sounding like David Brent, if this doesn't inspire and motivate you, nothing will.

Hope these pointers help. I may seem quite opinionated but this is only because of my own past experience in the last few years.

Finally, I know there's pros and cons to everything like this and it is a big change. Just remember that your happiness is the only important thing in your life... wealth is only a close second and will follow if you are driven enough. As I was reminded 2 years ago: nobody in this modern society in Ireland will die of starvation on the street due to lack of work because of a bad career choice when they were 19! If your parents aren't happy about you leaving college... they will just have to get used to it as mine did, its 2 years on and they now get so much enjoyment out of the fact that I absolutely love my job and enjoy my life much more.

I'd genuinely like to know how you get on.

Regards Rory.

galwaydude18

Hey dude I know how you are feeling! I spent about 6 years working in architects office part time and full time... I thought I would make a career in it for a while... I then went college and started studying electronics and computer engineering.. I spent almost 3 years doing this betwen repeats, repeating a year etc.. During the second year of that I started working in a toy shop for the extra money... I was offered a full time job and tood it in that shop as I was totaly fed up of college and had no interest in the course at all...

I was only meant to do that for three months while I sorted out a place to recieve on the job training in cabinet making.. I eventually got in contact with a company got promised a job with them and then it went all tits up... I then spent two horrible months in a joinery firm working for the most horrible and ignorant manager ever.. He changed his mind every day on how he was going to make stairs and I had never made stairs in my life.. After the two months they let me go after the xmas hols..

I then went back to the company that had previously let me down as I had always wanted to get in there.. Anyhow I e-mailed them and about three weeks later I was called up for an interview.. This time around I was lucky enough to be taken on by them..

I have been there since the middle of march doing shopfitting which comprises of cabinet making, joinery, fitting, metal shelving, custom counters shops, pharmacys etc. This really is the best job I have ever had.. I wake up every single morning delighted to go to work. Some days are tough and things will just not go your way, might have the odd row with the manager but in the end all is good..

I would not have any other job at the moment.. Money could be better but hey I'm enough at the moment.. Before I went into that company I alread had a very good understanding of a lot woodwork techineques, built up a substantial amount of top quality tools, and designed a build a lot of one off custom projects...

Anyhow even in the nine months I have learned a huge amount due to working with two very good cabinet makers and joiners... The company has about about twelve carpenters, cabinet makers, joiners etc working for them but I'm under two very good guys and learn a lot every week.

Also autocad would be an advantage to you in working for a company.. I have city and guilds in both 2d and 3d autocad and I often find myself designing shops, counters etc. for the company I work for.. All in all shopfitting is a tremondous career and is very versatile... You never make two of the same shop or two of the same counteer..

Might be worth a look into.. I have no qualifications in woodwork, cabinet making etc. and I don't intent in going to fas either... All the lads in work say it's a waste of time as the only time your ever asked for your papers is if you go working for a goverment body.. You learn a lot more with on the job training than in fas according to all the lads that work with me who have gone through fas.. Just a thought for you.....

Rory123

galwaydude18 wrote: »

Might be worth a look into.. I have no qualifications in woodwork, cabinet making etc. and I don't intent in going to fas either... All the lads in work say it's a waste of time as the only time your ever asked for your papers is if you go working for a goverment body.. You learn a lot more with on the job training than in fas according to all the lads that work with me who have gone through fas.. Just a thought for you.....

You have been given some very very bad information that will have massive financial repercussions for you later in life. I would plead with you to look into this a little more Galwaydude and please don't give this information to other people who are interested in becoming tradespeople. The only time you will spend in Fás is 20, 10 and 10 weeks out of a 4 and a half or 5 year apprenticeship. That is a very small price to pay in order to have a globally recognized qualification for the rest of your working life. If, for any reason you happen not to be self-employed in 10 or 20 years you would be looking at a salary way less than someone who is fully and properly qualified. By which time you may have a mortgage and a family, so becoming an apprentice then and taking a dip in wages for a few years may be out of the question. The men in work are probably older and are of a generation that put less importance on solid qualifications. Also, for example, try getting into Australia with no qualifications versus emigrating there with a proper trade.
Everybody is entitled to their own opinions and I generally enjoy hearing from both sides but this idea that its not important to do a formal apprenticeship is just plain wrong. I would almost say that it is a dangerous idea to be spreading. I don't want to insult you and I wouldn't berate you but it's worrying to think people may take this advice. Your job may be cushty now and the pay may be great at the minute in comparison to an apprentice wage, but have a think about 5 years down the line especially if, for any reason, you have to go looking for another job.

Also, I don't mean to be rude, but did you read the original post at all?... The guy asked for some tips and advice and asked some quite specific questions. All you seem to have written is a very in-depth review of the last coupe of years in the life of Galwaydude18!

turnertina

Hi
I have to agree with Rory123.
I went through FAS quite a number of years ago with my apprenticeship and have my trade for the rest of my life now.
I took the carpentry route which was soo difficult for a girl at the time.
I have a family now and a workshop where I do woodturning and cabinet-making, and have realised that I may have taken the wrong path in my woodwork career. No regrets mind you! Just having more fun right now.
DO register for sure, it's a waste of time otherwise.
AND make sure you go into the area that you will get the most from!
Hope this helps

craigg2008

wow,wasn't expecting replies so quick,thanks very much people. Yeah Rory that is funny alright,must be somethin with DCU pushing them towards cabinet making . Thanks galway dude and tina aswel,its good to take this stuff in,I've been finding it hard to get information from anyone. To Rory,the complication is I never did woodwork in school, all I have is a real liking for art so thats why I'm looking to be more creative,I nearly went to the NCAD before DCU. I know what you're saying about getting the apprenticeship straight off but I'm cautious about leaving college with nothing having done half me course already, I'm sure the best option would be just to move on tho,coz i have no interest in working with the degree anyway. In regards to getting me Fetac Level 5, I read somewhere that it leaves you at the same stage as a 2nd year apprentice,would any1 know if theres any truth in that?? Thanks for the advice tho ppl!!

galwaydude18

ya I read the original post and was explaining how I finally got to the job I have and how I did it as I was in the same position in college when I finally made the decision to go with the woodwork which what I should have done years ago..

I don't agree with you on the financial end.. Ya true getting into australia with your papers would be easier but the op didn't mention australia... Also I spoke to well in the region to at least 100 companies and people in the trade and everyone of the all said the same thing... Going through fas is useles and that you learn a million times more on the job training than going through fas..

I work with a lad that Is a qualified carpenter and he doesn't know how to hang a door after finishing his apprentship.... He doesn't even know how to sharpen a chisel... He actually thought my blunt chisel was sharp!!! Now he spent four years in fas so what does that tell you???

I also have a friend. a master joiner who nos everything about all aspects of carpentry, joinery, shopfitting, design, cabinet making etc. and his extact words about fas was that the lad next to you can get 40% (just barely pass) and you can get 100% but yet you both end up with the exact same qualifacitions and will usually start on the same amount of money each if you both start in the same company!!! Another thought there...

By the way he is a member of the institue of carpenters in england so that is another avenue you could explore.. Just do the exams and you then have reconatigion of your skills (if you pass them).. He's now studying his masters in it.. It's something I'm going to do soon when I have the time to....

Rory123

craigg2008 wrote: »

In regards to getting me Fetac Level 5, I read somewhere that it leaves you at the same stage as a 2nd year apprentice,would any1 know if theres any truth in that??

No problem Craig! I was interested in doing a similar year-long course in Plunkett College before my apprenticeship as I believed this would give me a head start. When I contacted Fás to see would the course be of any advantage to me, their stance was pretty black and white. They said that the apprenticeship program had no affiliation to courses like the one I was, and you are, interested in and everybody who wants to start an apprenticeship has to start at the bottom of the ladder, with phase 1. Maybe you should contact Fás in Tallaght and ask them for yourself because maybe they have made some exceptions, although I think this is unlikely. Thinking about it now... a year isn't such a long time and it might give you a good idea of what you want to do (and if the area is for you at all!), especially if you don't have much experience. Just bear in mind that you won't be qualified for another year (until you are 25/26), but if this isn't a problem for you, you should look into it more if you really want to do it.

Although I still stand the fact that there's no real alternative for a completing an officially recognised apprenticeship.
All the best!

doozerie

If you haven't ruled out the prospect of further third-level education then it might be worth your while having a look at what the Furniture College in Letterfrack has to offer. They have an open day each year (or they used to, at least) where you can get to see some of the furniture that their students have designed and built and the standard is pretty high - you also get a tour of the college as part of the open day so you get to see their facilities too.

The college is assocated with GMIT, and GMIT's (crap!) webpages for it are here: http://www.gmit.ie/letterfrack-campus.html

The Qualifax website has some more information, such as a list of all GMIT courses which includes those at the Furniture College:
http://www.qualifax.ie/?Mainsec=courses&Subsec=college_details&ID=763&CSH_ID=9
...and here is the Qualifax page for one of the courses:
http://www.qualifax.ie/?Mainsec=courses&Subsec=course_details&ID=2303

The Qualifax website has info on other courses too, in a variety of institutions, if you do a search for 'furniture' or similar.

Rory123

To Galwaydude18:
Ok, I'm not going to pursue this difference of opinion any further with you after this but there's just a few hole's in your response I need to point out...

galwaydude18 wrote: »

Ya true getting into australia with your papers would be easier but the op didn't mention australia...

I wasn't directing that at anyone in particular. It's a possibility every young person should keep in mind.

Also I spoke to well in the region to at least 100 companies and people in the trade and everyone of the all said the same thing... Going through fas is useles and that you learn a million times more on the job training than going through fas..

Stop telling porkies! You don't get the point that 80% or more of your Fás-based apprenticeship is spent on-the-bloody-job with your employer! And what sort of pilgrimage did you have to go on to personally speak to at least 100 companies!?

I work with a lad that Is a qualified carpenter and he doesn't know how to hang a door after finishing his apprentship.... He doesn't even know how to sharpen a chisel... He actually thought my blunt chisel was sharp!!! Now he spent four years in fas so what does that tell you???

There's a few possible explanations for this. Either the guy is dumb, or he lacks motivation and interest in Carpentry, or he paid no attention in class and with his on-the-job employer. Or possibly you're telling more porkies.

I also have a friend. a master joiner who nos everything about all aspects of carpentry, joinery, shopfitting, design, cabinet making etc. and his extact words about fas was that the lad next to you can get 40% (just barely pass) and you can get 100% but yet you both end up with the exact same qualifacitions and will usually start on the same amount of money each if you both start in the same company!!!

Untrue. You qualify from Fás with either a basic Pass or a Merit. If you qualify with merit, prospective employers will look upon you far more favourably. Regrdless, a qualified tradesman will earn a better salary than an unqualified tradesman (if it's even fair to to call them a tradesman).


The reason why I believe you aren't fully telling the truth and why you are wrong is that it's obvious that you are unfamiliar with the actual schedule of a proper apprenticeship in the first place, despite the fact that you seem to be pretty sure that there is no point in doing one!...

Now he spent four years in fas so what does that tell you???

Yes Fás are the authority on apprenticeships in Ireland but the vast majority of your training comes from the employer... you play by his rules, he teaches you most of your skills, you learn how to handle his clients, he pays your wages etc. The maxmum amount of time any apprentice will spend off-the-job (ie in Fás) in one go is 20 weeks, during phase 2 (second year), and not 4 years as you seem to think. Phase 1,3,5 and 7 are within the company(which in total amounts to about 4 years), while phase 2, 4 and 6 are in class with Fás (amounting to 40 weeks, just under 1 year). Just to fill you in, the schedule for a cabinetmaker and carpenter/ joiner is as follows...

1) Find a job with an employer as normal. Employer must register you as a first year apprentice within 2 weeks of commencing employment. This term of working within the company is known as Phase 1 and has a minimum duration of 3 months. Although normal duration of Phase 1 at the moment is 18 months.

2) You will be called up for Phase 2 of your apprenticeship after this period. Your boss will release you for 20 weeks to attend a Fás training centre. Phase two is mostly made up of practical training (construction of projects, drawing, jointing techniques etc). You will attend all training in Fás on a full time, 5 day week basis.

3) After completing 20 weeks of phase 2 and it's exams, you will return to work within your company for what must be a minimum of 3 months, but is never less than 10 to 13 months. This is Phase 3.

4) You will be released by your employer for 10 weeks when Fás call you up to carry out Phase 4. In phase 4 there is more of an emphasis on theoretical aspects of your trade with more of an emphasis on exam assesment than in phase 2.

5) Return to employer for phase 5 for around 8 or 10 months.

6) Phase 6 in Fás for 10 weeks, heavy emphasis on theory and final exams.

7) Back to your emplyoyer for good. After 6 months to a year you will attend your Graduation Ceremony, physically get your qualification papers and party-hardy.

Your wage allowance increases each calendar year on the date you were first registered, regardless of what phase you are in or whether you are in Fás or with your employer on that date.

Weekly wage rates are...
First year- €240
Second year- €360
Third year- €545
Fourth year- €650
Annual increase from employer after fourth year.

A decent boss will pay you these wages for a 39.5 hour week, but obviously and sadly, this isn't the case 100% of the time. Although if you aren't happy you can find a new employer at any point during your apprenticeship without any disruption to your progress.

.... So basically Galwaydude18, you now hopefully understand that during your "Fás apprenticeship" you would be spending very little time actually in Fás itself! Only a total of 40 weeks broken into 3 phases over around 5 years. Given that you'd be working in the industry for all that time anyway, you'd be mad not to do an officially recognised apprenticeship. Believe me it's not a waste of time, you learn a hell of a lot while off-the-job in Fás.

Days are short while you are off-the-job in Fás, you finish at 3.45 Monday to Thursday and 12.45 on Friday, there is no overtime. So if you miss your normal work for the 20, 10, and 10 weeks that you will be away there is no reason why you couldn't do nixers in afternoons, evenings and weekends... or even do casual work for your boss part-time, if he or she agrees.

It frustrates me to think that myself and thousands of other people in this country are bothering to do proper apprenticeships and to ensure we have a complete knowledge of our trade so we can work in society and be able to stand over and take pride in the work we do, while a very small minority of people, yourself included, have scant regard for that and believe they can just walk into a trade, practice that trade and charge the public money for it, even though they haven't sat a single formal examination. Yeah work experience is great but if there was no need for doing apprenticeships there wouldn't be a Fás in the first place!

The Construction Industry gets enough of a hard time in Ireland these days as it is... imagine if we were all going around with no qualifications for our trade... other consumers would love that now!


It's pretty clear by now that I think it's important to do an apprenticeship if you want to practice a trade (as in make a living, I don't mean hobbyists who do the occasion nixer... I'm actually all for that)... but am I going mad?... would anybody else who has valid points like to prove me wrong?

Rory123

Just in case other people misunderstand me and get insulted... I don't mean to disrespect hobbyists or craftspeople, or the Letterfrack crowd (I even really hope to go there in a few years myself, if my situation allows!).

I purely have a gripe with people who refer to themselves as tradesmen, when they don't have the proper qualifications... especially those who disregard apprenticeships as a waste of time! I don't think us apprentices or qualified tradesmen are particularly special, anyone can do it.

So I hope all is good in da hood with everyone else who reads this and thinks it disrespects them, but it doesn't! :rolleyes:

galwaydude18

ur admaent about the apprenship alrite... I'm only speaking from my own personal experience.. That lad was telling lies about the door. It wasn't even me who told me that.. He is a fitter for the company I work for.. It was our project manager that told me about it and it was actually the electrican who wires most of the jobs we do for clients that spotted it!!!! Yes but you dont even acknowledge what I said about the insitute of carpenters in england did you? no?!!!!!! I never said I'm a qualified person and never will until I do the exams with the insitute of carpenters in england and pass the exams and become a member but there are lads working for my company for a number of years who couldn't even make the most basic of counters...

And I can gurantee you this I get the best training possible caus i'm under a joiner and a cabinet maker and get one to one advice and help when necessary......

I went on a fair priglimage because foolishly I went looking for a job in the industry at the beginning of janurary when there isn't a huge amount of jobs available after the christmas and most lads said they dont take on apprentices anymore cause fas take them away from the company... From my experience ppl and companies prefer to take you on a full time bases where you wont be taken away and they can provide you with all the full time training necessary..

As I say that's my personal experience in the industry

Rory123

I did notice that and I was going to comment on it but I didn't in the end as I thought that I already had made enough points and also I didn't want people to mix up my opinion on that, and just think I was another Brit-hater, 800 year struggle rubbish etc... I'm just not part of that generation and thinking like that gets us nowhere these days, IMO.

But seeing as how you're asking I'll tell you, its really quite simple (folks please keep in mind that I have no grudge against England, it would be the same story if it was Germany, Italy, bloody Afghanistan if you want! )...

We are Irish. We live in Ireland. We have our own system for turning out high-standard tradespeople.

We are not English. We don't live in England. We don't need to qualify as tradespeople under a foreign system.

Now, as far as I am concerned you can go to Algeria to do your exams if that's what you want. But wouldn't you rather do proper training and undergo evaluation in the country where you are from and live?!
Are you going to be in Ireland for the next 4 or 5 years working in this industry?!... If so, why in God's name would you not do an apprenticeship?! It will not be counterproductive or a disadvantage to your career in any way, shape or form. And I guarantee that you WILL learn a hell of a lot, even when you are in Fás (as I am now) for that relatively short period.

I never said I'm a qualified person and never will

I didn't say that you claimed that. But I did say that you may claim to be a tradesman... I understand that if one works in a trade, that should make one a tradesman, and I believe that if one is to be a tradesman one should be qualified. If one isn't a qualified tradesman, then one should be an apprentice. That's my interpretation anyway.

most lads said they dont take on apprentices anymore cause fas take them away from the company... From my experience ppl and companies prefer to take you on a full time bases where you wont be taken away and they can provide you with all the full time training necessary..

Any decent boss with a heart will take on an apprentice because it is the only way that the trade they are in will continue with any standard of quality. They were apprentices once themselves so at least they could give something back by training a young person in.
Here's a little secret that bosses like to keep quiet... your boss can get away with charging the same in labour (€30 per man per hour last time I checked) for a first year apprentice as he gets for his top employee when billing clients... so he is making good money by having you by his side, fetching his measuring tape and going to buy the breakfast rolls.
If a boss takes on an apprentice who is responsible and has half a brain, the boss will save enough money by paying him the apprentice wage to justify releasing him for a total of 40 weeks over 5 years, if he does a decent amount of work while on the job.
I'm sure you can get great training from a company if you aren't doing an apprenticeship, but when it comes time to move on to a new employer you're in trouble. That training only really stands to you in your current company. 10 years unqualified work experience in the same company is nothing when compared to an apprenticeship and say, 6 years experience on top of it. It suits your boss to work things this way because you will rely on your employer so much and you'll be in so deep that you can't cut the metaphorical umbilical cord and jack in the job!!... unless he wants to fire you !

kadman

Now, now, now then....keep your powder dry people....please.

I think you might be about to make history here, if you are let continue....people being banned on the woodcraft forum.....:eek::eek::eek:

I think you have all let off enough steam on this one. At this stage i think its wise to return to our peace loving craft....and leave the sharp tools alone for a couple of hours;)

So behave....

kadman

Rory123

OK "Dad". You are a bit late with your warning though in fairness... the last post on that subject was 3 days ago.

I would gladly get banned from this forum once I knew that I did my best not to let someone get away with telling people that doing an apprenticship to work within a trade was a complete waste of time.

kadman

Dont start getting smart Rory123 .

You have aired your opinion, now leave it alone. And just for the record, the moderators will decide on who lets who away with what on this forum, not you.

End of discussion, and I do mean end.


kadman

Rory123

kadman wrote: »

Now, now, now then....keep your powder dry people....please.

......
....and leave the sharp tools alone for a couple of hours;)

I'm not the only one being smart here... I was being smart in the same way that I percieved your comments... nothing more than playful.

Don't worry about banning me as I'll no longer be taking part in a forum where the moderators won't allow any amount of non-threatening controversial interaction between posters (even if they wait 3 days after the disagreement ends to put their foot down). Pity.

As you will have seen from my relatively-few other posts, my opinons have not been extreme and I have consistently done my best not to insult other people's views... but I can't sit back and and say nothing when someone passes off what I, and thousands of other Irish people, are dedicating 4 or 5 years of our lives to as a waste of time (but that issue is dealt with and has been concluded). My choice of words was wrong regarding not "letting someone get away with something". Yes, that is completely up to moderaters. But, I should be allowed to have my say, which as far as I was concerned was done and dusted on the 15th of January at 21.40.

Don't let it go to your head Kadman.

Chao folks!;)

kadman

Just for the record, I'm not Rory123's "Dad", ...... no one has been banned, and every one is welcome here, regardless of what view you have on a career path.

I am now closing this thread , in the interest of peace and harmony.

kadman