The derogation has been signed.

NoNameRanger

The derogation which allows the killing of certain pest species has being signed by the minister. I haven't seen it myself yet but i've been told he has made only one change to it. Basically the use of poisons on meat baits has been removed, so it is now illegal to use alphachloralose on meat to poison magpies and hoodies. In my opinion this is a good step forward, alot of non target species have been killed from eating this, family pets, ravens, buzzards and most recently a newly reintroduced Red Kite in Leitrim, landing us all with the bad press that follows. I'm sure some people are using it and will be a little miffed, but the larsen trap is a good alternative and it could have been a lot worse!

meathstevie

Thanks Ranger. Can perfectly understand the point about the poison although it's effective it's a touch indiscrimenate. Just a little clarification please : is it still ok for farmers to use the alphachlorolose doughballs ?

NoNameRanger

From what i'm told it only applies to meat baits but i haven't seen the document myself yet, but i have it from a reliable source. So it seems the farmers can still use the doughballs. But it has always been an offence for anybody to kill a protected non-target species with poison, so if the farmer kills a blackbird or other song bird using this method he could be prosecuted.

johngalway

I don't use it myself (infact I don't poision anything even rats), I have no need to, never like to see anything getting banned though. Things are being slowly chipped away all of the time.

Glad they finally signed the derogation. Hope they used a recyclable pen and didn't accidentally break any of those mercury filled new fangled bulbs and accidentally poision themselves like (I know I shouldn't antagonise but I can never resist, apologies to the OP).

Trojan911

Is this the stuff they are on about?

meathstevie

Indeed but from what I can see on the container in the picture that stuff looks like it's pure. In real life you would be mixing a small quantity with bait. It's mainly used for avian pest destruction as it easily causes lethal hypothermia in smaller animals. According to the information I've read about it you can "cure" bigger animals like dogs from it's effects by bringing them in to a warm place or even placing them in a lukewarm bath ( marginally warmer than body temp. ).

BryanL

thats handy to know Stevie hope i never need to use it.
here's a handy link for control
http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/agdex3496

It wasn't me!

There was a chap on After Hours a while back who worked for a pest control company of some sort. He said they used to use mild concentrations of alpha chlorolose in food when dealing with pigeons and other problematic birds. He said that it only rendered them unconscious in this dosage, so when other bird species took the bait, as is inevitable, they could be separated and put somewhere warm to recover, while the pigeons were gassed with Zyklon B. Just a related anecdote someone might be able to draw something useful from.

Trojan911

meathstevie wrote: »

According to the information I've read about it you can "cure" bigger animals like dogs from it's effects by bringing them in to a warm place or even placing them in a lukewarm bath ( marginally warmer than body temp. ).

Yes, I've been told they sprinkle a little into the carcass of a rabbit & leave it for the fox or grey crow etc. The "cure" for dogs etc is exactly what you described. I've never used it as yet.

Rovi

It wasn't me! wrote: »

There was a chap on After Hours a while back who worked for a pest control company of some sort. He said they used to use mild concentrations of alpha chlorolose in food when dealing with pigeons and other problematic birds. He said that it only rendered them unconscious in this dosage, so when other bird species took the bait, as is inevitable, they could be separated and put somewhere warm to recover, while the pigeons were gassed with Zyklon B. Just a related anecdote someone might be able to draw something useful from.

Here's the thread-
How hard is it to kill a rat!!

marcsignal is the poster in question, particularly posts #40 and #59.

Invincible

meathstevie wrote: »

Indeed but from what I can see on the container in the picture that stuff looks like it's pure. In real life you would be mixing a small quantity with bait. It's mainly used for avian pest destruction as it easily causes lethal hypothermia in smaller animals. According to the information I've read about it you can "cure" bigger animals like dogs from it's effects by bringing them in to a warm place or even placing them in a lukewarm bath ( marginally warmer than body temp. ).

I've heard that the antidote for dog's who've consumed alphachloralose is a dose of vitamin K.

Trojan911

Invincible wrote: »

I've heard that the antidote for dog's who've consumed alphachloralose is a dose of vitamin K.

You are right there. I remember seeing a thread maybe in this forum or another, I'm sure the post was by Bond-007 (apologies if not) but someone injected their dog with vitamin K & it survived.

meathstevie

Can't remember if it was alphachloralose in that particular case or some other agent in ratpoison but hey, you never know enough.

cavan shooter

NoNameRanger wrote: »

The derogation which allows the killing of certain pest species has being signed by the minister. I haven't seen it myself yet but i've been told he has made only one change to it. Basically the use of poisons on meat baits has been removed, so it is now illegal to use alphachloralose on meat to poison magpies and hoodies. In my opinion this is a good step forward, alot of non target species have been killed from eating this, family pets, ravens, buzzards and most recently a newly reintroduced Red Kite in Leitrim, landing us all with the bad press that follows. I'm sure some people are using it and will be a little miffed, but the larsen trap is a good alternative and it could have been a lot worse!

I read the derogation in the Irish shooters Digest and notice that it refers to Farmers killing vermin on their land, protecting crops etc, etc. Is this me being paranoid or has the wording changed i.e

Farmers can kill vermin only on their land if the vermin is damaging crops, I ask because I am not a farmer (I own 2 acres) I have a larsen trap in the back and a couple more spread out around the place....greys and mags

I don't plant pheasants, they tend not to sprout too well:D

Opinions please?????

fat-tony

Invincible wrote: »

I've heard that the antidote for dog's who've consumed alphachloralose is a dose of vitamin K.

Vitamin K is the antidote for Warfarin, which is an anti-clotting agent used in rat poison (and also used to treat certain heart/circulatory problems in humans). Alphachloralose is a general anaesthetic - Vitamin K is NOT an antidote.

ivanthehunter

NoNameRanger wrote: »

The derogation which allows the killing of certain pest species has being signed by the minister. I haven't seen it myself yet but i've been told he has made only one change to it. Basically the use of poisons on meat baits has been removed, so it is now illegal to use alphachloralose on meat to poison magpies and hoodies. In my opinion this is a good step forward, alot of non target species have been killed from eating this, family pets, ravens, buzzards and most recently a newly reintroduced Red Kite in Leitrim, landing us all with the bad press that follows. I'm sure some people are using it and will be a little miffed, but the larsen trap is a good alternative and it could have been a lot worse!

is there a version on line-- that i could read.. cant make it to the shops at moment.. i,m very sick as you might know..

eoinkildare

are larsen traps easily made or would one have to buy a trap. once you get your hands on one, do you just leave it in the middle of a field or are there recommended places that are better. and finally, how do you get your first bird to use as a decoy?
eoin

J.R.

eoinkildare wrote: »

are larsen traps easily made or would one have to buy a trap. once you get your hands on one, do you just leave it in the middle of a field or are there recommended places that are better. and finally, how do you get your first bird to use as a decoy?
eoin

Link on this site to construction of larsen trap:

http://www.crowpigeondecoying.com

eoinkildare

thats great. i'll print that out and try to make one up next week!
anyone got any experience with them? have you found them to work well?
eoin

jimmyzx

eoinkildare wrote: »

thats great. i'll print that out and try to make one up next week!
anyone got any experience with them? have you found them to work well?
eoin

our gun club provided me with a trap late last year. I caught 13 magpie's with in two weeks in the one field. I only used it for 2 months and our tally was 24 mapies and 2 hoodies. Thought it worked a treat and will be dusting it down and getting it ready for another season shorthly.:D

Invincible

eoinkildare wrote: »

are larsen traps easily made or would one have to buy a trap. once you get your hands on one, do you just leave it in the middle of a field or are there recommended places that are better. and finally, how do you get your first bird to use as a decoy?
eoin

I made a couple of them from plans out of the N.A.R.G.C booklet,caught both mags and greys(19),found that 1 inch chicken wire was a bit on the light side,as a grey managed to break through it,used 12 mm mesh with 1mm wire,worked fine until a fox went in after the grey,he ate his way out.If you're using a top entry trap,place it under trees,so that the decoyed birds can drop down to it,if using a side entry trap,place it in the open,don't place it in view of the public,as you're bird will be released or trap broken,by an anti.When you are going to feed or dispatch your bird,make sure it's dark,as any bird in the area that see's you near the trap will be wise and won't get caught,grey's can live to be 40yrs old!Make sure to keep fresh water available to your call bird,dog food sausage,available in Lidl is suitable food.Try using bread and tin-foil to entice your first bird,if you have'nt a rabbit carcess.

foxshooter243

grey crows live to 40 ?....according to Wilkepedia the longest a grey crow in captivity lived too was 16 years and 9 months..its thought 4 or 5 years in the wild will see them out.........

eoinkildare

sounds good, i'm going to try and make one up this week at some stage. farmer gave me permission today to place the trap. looking forward to checking it i have to say! whats the favoured method of dispatching the birds?
does the rabbit carcass work well cause i might use that rather than keeping a call bird alive??
eoin

Invincible

foxshooter243 wrote: »

grey crows live to 40 ?....according to Wilkepedia the longest a grey crow in captivity lived too was 16 years and 9 months..its thought 4 or 5 years in the wild will see them out.........

According to a well versed Game development officer/gamekeeper,a grey crow can live to 40 !

As regards the rabbit carcess,purpose of to entice your first bird into trap,alternatively,use some eggs,make it look like a nest,with hay surrounding five or six eggs,crack one or two and break one on top of the trap,leave eggshell in view,eggs work best when in season(during breeding cycle of wild birds).Eoin, callbird will have the effect of causing birds in the area to defend their territory,birds being more aggressive during their breeding season.If you know anyone locally that has a trap in operation,you can get a call bird from them.
Use gloves when handling mags or greys,pin the bird against floor or side of trap,with your hand,place your index and second fingers around it's neck,so that they meet at fingertips,your palm will be on the birds back,use thumb,fourth and fifth fingers to pin it's wings against it's body.Dispatch using sharp blow of lat to back of head.

bunny shooter

Or practice you're clay pigeon fundamentals

PULL !

J.R.

If you find it difficult to get your first call bird with rabbit carcass then try an artifical nest - they go mad for eggs.

Make a nest in the cage from moss, grass, etc. curved to shape like a nest. Put some clingfilm (or other plastic waterproof material) in the bottom of the nest slightly turned up at the edges. This can be very lightly covered with grass, if required. Break an egg or two on the clingfilm (can't soak away into the ground now!) and leave broken shells in nest as well. Put some more 'good' eggs beside broken ones.

they go frantic when they see it

cavan shooter

A number of us trap yearly in the clubs I'm a member of usually an APB goes out regarding availability of a call bird. Call bird from a different district works best:D I mess not, my brother has an aviary made, he started of with a standard larsen and it got bigger. He also has a magpie 14 months old, hasn't the heart to kill it, he finds that it brings in loads of others and thats the trade

bunny shooter

cavan shooter wrote: »

He also has a magpie 14 months old, hasn't the heart to kill it

IMO this is cruel. And I'm not having a go ! This is a wild bird. It shouldn't be caged like that for a long period. I've use Larsen traps and I regularly change and subsequently kill the original call bird with the next captured one so it isn't 'locked up' too long.