Dublin bus, route 4, crayons

paulm17781

I hate crayon threads but this has been annoying me lately. The 4 is one of the better bus routes IMO, the cross city aspect makes it particularly good. Recently they added the 4A which goes the exact same route only further.

The biggest problem with both these routes is they avoid parts of the city centre that people want to go to. Is there any reason the DB route planners are so blind to demand? The 4/a, 7, 8, 45 all take pretty much the same route through the city and leave you either at O'Connell st. or Pearse st., a good walk either way from Temple Bar / Grafton st., the more popular parts of the city.

*Out come Paul's Crayons*
Why when the 4A was introduced did DB not change the 4 to do something useful like go Pearse st., Dame st. / the quays, 4 courts, Phibsbourough, instead of O'Connell st.? This would give it a greater catchment area and would make the route more useful than existing buses.

The current Bus system with it's O'Connell St. focus is clearly a failed one yet DB seem to refuse to have buses take different routes through the city. Is there any reason for this or is it just another example of extremely bad planning?

markpb

Blinkers.

You're dead right though. Not only would it skip an area devoid of stops or passengers and serve a decent area, it would miss that stupid junction at Constitution Hill / Western Way and give the buses a chance of making some speed.

MiniD

I would agree, route 4/4A was an opportunity missed to try something a little different. Unfortunately, these routes were brought on to increase capacity for the overcrowded 7, which is often full leaving O'Connell Street. At times, the 4/4A serves it's purpose by carrying the loads which the 7 has left behind, but very often, you end up with the bunching of buses coming at once, then leaving a lengthy gap. When heading northbound, you can have a similar situation where there is a convoy of a 4/4A and a 13/13A all leaving Merrion Square together.

I would have preferred if the 4&4A had followed Route 10 from the city centre, heading down Baggot Street, and Pembroke Road to it's existing route at Ballsbridge. This would have created a link between Stephens Green and Ballsbridge which is currently not offered by Dublin Bus.

The 10 is very often full by the time it reaches Baggot Street in the evenings, and having the 4 and 4A as an extra service to O'Connell Street would have been a great help.

paulm17781

I never thought of that route. My point is really why the 4 and 4A are identical (except the 4A goes further). They really need to open up more of the city with buses, not have everything go on the same route. The people who get the 7 could also get the DART. DB should be try to get people to other parts of the city, even steal some of the DARTs customers. Right now the bus offers little over the DART. If the 4 went a different route to the 7, more people would get it, you would probably even get car drivers using it more.

Ham'nd'egger

paulm17781 wrote: »

*Out come Paul's Crayons*
Why when the 4A was introduced did DB not change the 4 to do something useful like go Pearse st., Dame st. / the quays, 4 courts, Phibsbourough, instead of O'Connell st.? This would give it a greater catchment area and would make the route more useful than existing buses.

Route 83 already serves O'Connell Bridge, Merchant's Quay/4 Courts, Church Street, Phibsboro and Ballymum Road so this is covered; in fact this bus meets the 4 and shares route with it for about 2KM.

Route 4 gives Blackrock, Monkstown and parts of Deansgrange and D 2+4 a link to the north of the city, something that is equally essential for northside residents to avail of and something that the DART isn't able to do.

I agree with MiniD, the Green isn't well connected to Ballsbridge. To do so, however, would mean either cutting buses off routes to cover same or applying to the Transport Ministry for a new route license; both long cut arguments on here.

Traffic

With the construction of the Metro and the luas link up Dublin Bus will have to consider diverting some routes from O'Connell St.

markpb

There was a post on another site that said DB were thinking of routing south-bound buses onto Marlborough St and across a temporary bridge linking up with Hawkins St. I'm not sure how north-bound buses were planned to be handled.

Traffic

Yes that public transport bridge is to be built and will be permanent, but I still thik they will need to divert services further away from O'Connell St, it should mean a rethink of all the bus routes that run through the area

paulm17781

Hamndegger wrote: »

Route 83 already serves O'Connell Bridge, Merchant's Quay/4 Courts, Church Street, Phibsboro and Ballymum Road so this is covered; in fact this bus meets the 4 and shares route with it for about 2KM.

How does the 83 benefit Blackrock or Ballymun? It doesn't. What you said is prime DB logic. Coming from Blackrock one should be able to get to Stephen's green by bus. There are at least 5 routes that go from Blackrock to O'Connell st. EVERYONE in Blackrock would prefer the option to get to Stephen's Green / Dame st. AS WELL as the the option to go to O'Connell st. It shouldn't be a case of "the route is covered by another bus". Dublin Bus should be getting people to where they want to go. Little deviations on routes like what I suggested would make a huge difference to the bus service and I guarantee would increase bus ridership.

Ham'nd'egger

paulm17781 wrote: »

How does the 83 benefit Blackrock or Ballymun? It doesn't. What you said is prime DB logic. Coming from Blackrock one should be able to get to Stephen's green by bus. There are at least 5 routes that go from Blackrock to O'Connell st. EVERYONE in Blackrock would prefer the option to get to Stephen's Green / Dame st. AS WELL as the the option to go to O'Connell st. It shouldn't be a case of "the route is covered by another bus". Dublin Bus should be getting people to where they want to go. Little deviations on routes like what I suggested would make a huge difference to the bus service and I guarantee would increase bus ridership.

Paul, a few months ago, I got on a 746 from Dublin Airport. I got off this service at Dorset Street and hailed a 121, which took me home. If I had have been feeling energetic, I would have got onto a 16A and hauled my bag 10 minutes walk after getting off of it. My point? Unlike you, I didn't rant away about the disgrace that a bus doesn't go direct from my house to the airport, I got what services there was and it did me very well, thank you. A bus can't go everywhere that you like or want. The solution to this is, get off one bus and get onto the bus that does. If your bus gets you close to, a 5-10 walk may have to suffice.

By the way, I notice you didn't comment on the issue of fleet capacity and numbers and route licensing, both of which DB have no control over and dictates to them any route deviations that they may wish to apply. I await your "it would be better if it was private" lined reply with keenness

KC61

paulm17781 wrote: »

How does the 83 benefit Blackrock or Ballymun? It doesn't. What you said is prime DB logic. Coming from Blackrock one should be able to get to Stephen's green by bus. There are at least 5 routes that go from Blackrock to O'Connell st. EVERYONE in Blackrock would prefer the option to get to Stephen's Green / Dame st. AS WELL as the the option to go to O'Connell st. It shouldn't be a case of "the route is covered by another bus". Dublin Bus should be getting people to where they want to go. Little deviations on routes like what I suggested would make a huge difference to the bus service and I guarantee would increase bus ridership.

I would tend to agree that perhaps some bus from the Rock road should be routed via Baggot Street, opening a new corridor. However, the number of buses passing along Dawson Street and Kildare Street is already vast.

The whole idea behind the 4/4A is (like the other new routes - 128/145/151) was to provide a fast direct service along the QBC to the city rather than making deviations.

paulm17781

Hamndegger wrote: »

Paul, a few months ago, I got on a 746 from Dublin Airport. I got off this service at Dorset Street and hailed a 121, which took me home. If I had have been feeling energetic, I would have got onto a 16A and hauled my bag 10 minutes walk after getting off of it. My point? Unlike you, I didn't rant away about the disgrace that a bus doesn't go direct from my house to the airport, I got what services there was and it did me very well, thank you. A bus can't go everywhere that you like or want. The solution to this is, get off one bus and get onto the bus that does. If your bus gets you close to, a 5-10 walk may have to suffice.

I've said countless times, the standard DB ticket should be valid on all buses for 90 minutes, then people would use the bus service like you suggest. FWIW I have an annual ticket, my idea is to make the service better, I'm not ranting, I'm throwing an idea to make the service better, your idea would cost people money, money they shouldn't have to spend.

Hamndegger wrote: »

By the way, I notice you didn't comment on the issue of fleet capacity and numbers and route licensing, both of which DB have no control over and dictates to them any route deviations that they may wish to apply. I await your "it would be better if it was private" lined reply with keenness

By the way, your tone is extremely rude. Can we not be civil when someone throws an idea out? Now then, just to keep you happy, the 4 ran for several months, then they added the 4A, when they could have extended the 4 to Stradbrook and have the 4A go to Blackrock via Dame st. / Stephen's green creating a better service. How does route licensing or capacity come into this? I await your "DB can do no wrong and anyone who suggests a better route deserves to be patronized" lined reply with keenness

paulm17781

KC61 wrote: »

I would tend to agree that perhaps some bus from the Rock road should be routed via Baggot Street, opening a new corridor. However, the number of buses passing along Dawson Street and Kildare Street is already vast.

The whole idea behind the 4/4A is (like the other new routes - 128/145/151) was to provide a fast direct service along the QBC to the city rather than making deviations.

True on both counts. I only threw the 4 in as it is route I am familiar with. I would imagine there are countless bus routes that could be altered in some way to open parts of the city and create a better service for all. Though Ham'nd'egger (who needs a grammar & etiquette lesson) would probably object as people should just get several buses instead of DB making the routes better for the public, who pay for the service. :rolleyes:

bold_defender

Problem with 4 before the 4a was introduced was that there was 20 min between them (on timetable). At the Ballymun end where I get it there isn't much alternative.
Other problems are the long bus, its slower as has trouble with some corners and pulling out so pass obstructions etc. Got stuck the clare street lincoln place junction one day (thats the 120 degree turn after Merrion sq, heading towards westland row for over 10 minutes. I wasn't on it but seems most people abandoned it. The long buses are are very prone to breakdowns.

shltter

paulm17781 wrote: »

True on both counts. I only threw the 4 in as it is route I am familiar with. I would imagine there are countless bus routes that could be altered in some way to open parts of the city and create a better service for all. Though Ham'nd'egger (who needs a grammar & etiquette lesson) would probably object as people should just get several buses instead of DB making the routes better for the public, who pay for the service. :rolleyes:

I think a large part of the obsession with O'Connell St is that it is the Street that has the most done for bus priority compared to other possible routes.
And that there is a certain amount of pressure from DCC that if they want Bus priority then they better run X number of buses down it.

There is also the issue that O'Connell St acts like a hub and allows people to transfer to buses to take them to most areas of the city

Some of the other options for crossing the liffey are a complete disaster Zone traffic wise basically if you want to get a bus across the city as quickly as possible O'Connell St is the best way.

That said the street is about to be dug up big time so alternatives will have to be found

shltter

bold_defender wrote: »

Problem with 4 before the 4a was introduced was that there was 20 min between them (on timetable). At the Ballymun end where I get it there isn't much alternative.
Other problems are the long bus, its slower as has trouble with some corners and pulling out so pass obstructions etc. Got stuck the clare street lincoln place junction one day (thats the 120 degree turn after Merrion sq, heading towards westland row for over 10 minutes. I wasn't on it but seems most people abandoned it. The long buses are are very prone to breakdowns.

The articulated buses are a disaster and the infrastructure was never put in place for them.

A case of Dublin Bus listening to what was trendy rather than what was practical

paulm17781

shltter wrote: »

Some of the other options for crossing the liffey are a complete disaster Zone traffic wise basically if you want to get a bus across the city as quickly as possible O'Connell St is the best way.

Odds are if these areas had a decent bus service, the traffic would reduce. They are probably only worse because people want to avoid O'Connell st.

shltter

paulm17781 wrote: »

Odds are if these areas had a decent bus service, the traffic would reduce. They are probably only worse because people want to avoid O'Connell st.

Like where
Seriously are you suggesting that if DB ran more services down Capel St then all the cars would vanish.


There is no point in throwing buses into gridlock when there is a relatively free flowing alternative

The first Step would be to identify alternatives then see what Bus priority measures could be put in place so that a reliable service could be provided if you just start running buses down Church St or Capel St and end up with buses stuck there and an unreliable service then no one is going to use it.

Put the infrastructure in then the buses not the other way around

paulm17781

shltter wrote: »

Like where
Seriously are you suggesting that if DB ran more services down Capel St then all the cars would vanish.

Not as such. I am suggesting if DB ran services over wider parts of the city, to places people want to go (eg. 4 to Dame St. / Stephen's green) more people would use buses. There are too many places that are unserved by buses so people drive. That's why I said the O'Connell St. thing is failing, not everyone wants to go there anymore. Better distribution of existing services would go a long way to alleviating traffic congestion.

As it is DB is seen as an inflexible service which often leaves people a far walk from where they want to go. Better distribution of buses or better ticketing strategies would increase usage and reduce traffic. Like I said, if some of the buses from Blackrock went a different way through the city, more people would use them.

shltter

paulm17781 wrote: »

Not as such. I am suggesting if DB ran services over wider parts of the city, to places people want to go (eg. 4 to Dame St. / Stephen's green) more people would use buses. There are too many places that are unserved by buses so people drive. That's why I said the O'Connell St. thing is failing, not everyone wants to go there anymore. Better distribution of existing services would go a long way to alleviating traffic congestion.

As it is DB is seen as an inflexible service which often leaves people a far walk from where they want to go. Better distribution of buses or better ticketing strategies would increase usage and reduce traffic. Like I said, if some of the buses from Blackrock went a different way through the city, more people would use them.

You are missing the point of the new services like the 4 it is a direct link using the available QBCs
There is not much point having QBCs and sending buses off on other routes to sit in traffic.

paulm17781

shltter wrote: »

You are missing the point of the new services like the 4 it is a direct link using the available QBCs
There is not much point having QBCs and sending buses off on other routes to sit in traffic.

My suggested route was via the quays or Dame st. There is a bus lane down the quays and I *think* one on Dame st. Bypassing O'Connell st. is never a bad thing someone here (I think it was you but I could be mistaken) said it can take 40 minutes to get down O'Connell st. Constitution hill to the quays would definitely be better than this via bus.

shltter

paulm17781 wrote: »

My suggested route was via the quays or Dame st. There is a bus lane down the quays and I *think* one on Dame st. Bypassing O'Connell st. is never a bad thing someone here (I think it was you but I could be mistaken) said it can take 40 minutes to get down O'Connell st. Constitution hill to the quays would definitely be better than this via bus.

The route the 83 takes

markpb

I don't understand the problem here. Paul is suggesting providing more coverage from a single origin point without transfers and without reducing the frequency along an existing route. What's the problem there?

If you want to get from Ballsbridge to north west dublin, it would be handier to have a single bus than to wait for the 83 which, lets face it, is no 46a It's not ideal it that would be deviating from the QBC but if all the routes focus on the QBC, it makes it harder to move around the city centre by bus.

I transfer buses all the time but Dublin doesn't have the quality of bus network to make it viable. It's a horrible experience that makes me walk rather than wait for the second bus on my journey. This morning's journey had a 20 minute extension because there were no buses on the Swords QBC for that length of time.

Ham'nd'egger

markpb wrote: »

I don't understand the problem here. Paul is suggesting providing more coverage from a single origin point without transfers and without reducing the frequency along an existing route. What's the problem there?

If you want to get from Ballsbridge to north west dublin, it would be handier to have a single bus than to wait for the 83 which, lets face it, is no 46a It's not ideal it that would be deviating from the QBC but if all the routes focus on the QBC, it makes it harder to move around the city centre by bus.

I transfer buses all the time but Dublin doesn't have the quality of bus network to make it viable. It's a horrible experience that makes me walk rather than wait for the second bus on my journey. This morning's journey had a 20 minute extension because there were no buses on the Swords QBC for that length of time.

Mark, the problem here is that Paul won't listen to the answers given.

QBC's are there to move buses and passengers ASAP; diverting routes gets away from this very principle. Not every area can be served by every route. Route changes are at the hands of the Minister's Office and take too long to implement, which means passengers lose out more so. If DB move routes to suit one group of passengers, other groups lose out as their service to a spot is moved.

markpb

I fully agree with trunking routes in the suburbs, especially where a QBC exists. The reality is that there are no QBCs once you approach the city centre. Some streets are better than others but you're still comparing muck with sh1te when you're talking about bus priority in the city centre. Leaving the 4 running OCS, Parnell, Western and Phibsboro and deviating the 4A so it serves Dame St, Smithfield, Constitution and Phibsboro serves a greater area, adds more destination points from the Ballsbridge QBC and doesn't avoid any QBCs in the city centre but they don't exist. Arguably, there is greater bus priority along the keys than there is along Western way.

I'll admit up front that I'm ignoring the rather thorny issue of the DoT taking light years to approve changing a flat wheel

shltter

markpb wrote: »

I don't understand the problem here. Paul is suggesting providing more coverage from a single origin point without transfers and without reducing the frequency along an existing route. What's the problem there?

If you want to get from Ballsbridge to north west dublin, it would be handier to have a single bus than to wait for the 83 which, lets face it, is no 46a It's not ideal it that would be deviating from the QBC but if all the routes focus on the QBC, it makes it harder to move around the city centre by bus.

I transfer buses all the time but Dublin doesn't have the quality of bus network to make it viable. It's a horrible experience that makes me walk rather than wait for the second bus on my journey. This morning's journey had a 20 minute extension because there were no buses on the Swords QBC for that length of time.

Of course it would be handier to be able to get one bus from any point to another without having to change buses.
Unfortunately it is not possible to have every single point joined to every other point by a direct route.

His main complaint is that the 4 goes down O'Connell St my point is that if that is the quickest way through the city centre because of the bus priority measures that have been put in place in that area then it makes sense to use it.

Dublin Bus have buses going the Church St, Quays route across town and know how quickly and how much demand there is along that route the quick test is do people going to the city centre along that route step back and let a 19 go past so they can get the 83 behind.

The point of these services is to link the destinations with each other via the quickest most direct route through town using the QBCs given the limited number of buses in the fleet this is the best use of the available buses. It would make no sense to have them meandering off the QBCs down streets with no bus priority.

paulm17781

shltter wrote:

The route the 83 takes

which as I said, is no use for people in Ballymun / Blackrock. I don't see why It's fine for the 4,7,8,45 to take the same route but you have an issue with the 4 and 83 having a similar route. As I said this would increase usage and get more people where they want to go. I

Hamndegger wrote:

Mark, the problem here is that Paul won't listen to the answers given.

That's because they are nonsense and could easily be implemented.

Hamndegger wrote:

QBC's are there to move buses and passengers ASAP; diverting routes gets away from this very principle. Not every area can be served by every route. If DB move routes to suit one group of passengers, other groups lose out as their service to a spot is moved.

Right, deviating and taking a different, quicker route through the city, one people who get the 4 would be happy to use causes people to lose out. If the 83 uses bus lanes, and the 4 uses bus lanes, why not make the 4 use the same bus lanes in the city that the 83 uses? There is no problem doing this. I know, I know, the 83 takes that route it could be complimented by the 4 and make things better for passengers.

Hamndegger wrote:

Route changes are at the hands of the Minister's Office and take too long to implement, which means passengers lose out more so.

So if DB were to ask the minister to allow them to make the 4 a better wider serving route tomorrow. Passengers are going to lose out? I see...

markpb wrote:

I don't understand the problem here. Paul is suggesting providing more coverage from a single origin point without transfers and without reducing the frequency along an existing route. What's the problem there?

I know Mark, it's amazing. Suggesting ways to make the bus service better with a little change and the DB lads go ballistic. It really does show a lot about the mindset of the company. Let's blame the minister and imply people are losing out if we open more of the city and bring more people to where they want to go. I'm actually not sure if they misunderstand or take every suggested change to DB as an insult to them. How was the 4A introduced if the Minister holds everything up? How could it not have been given a different route through the city?

I like the constant blaming of the Minister too. DB make no effort to make the routes more flexible or open the city for the majority of people, I'd be amazed if what I suggested was even considered by DB but somehow the Minster would hold this up. I often have to ask my boss for funding for new projects, I probably shouldn't bother, things will be delayed while he reads my proposals.

I don't know if you recall I once said in the thread about the Harristown strike that DB should make the default ticket valid for 90 minutes on all routes (like the ones available in a shop) and one of the other DB lads said "We don't offer that." The attitudes to change speak volumes really. I wonder how many of these lads actually suggest improvements to their management.

paulm17781

shltter wrote: »

Dublin Bus have buses going the Church St, Quays route across town and know how quickly and how much demand there is along that route the quick test is do people going to the city centre along that route step back and let a 19 go past so they can get the 83 behind.

That's nonsense too. I know far more people who would want to get to Dame st. / Temple Bar than O'Connell st. All the stops are around O'Connell st., of course that's where the demand is. You are also ignoring how more people (from Southside) would get the bus to town if it went Quays / Dame st.

shltter wrote: »

The point of these services is to link the destinations with each other via the quickest most direct route through town using the QBCs given the limited number of buses in the fleet this is the best use of the available buses. It would make no sense to have them meandering off the QBCs down streets with no bus priority.

That makes slightly more sense however you (I think) once said it can take 40 minutes to get across O'Connell st. The extra 10 minutes (Max) it would take to deviate the 4 to a more popular city route would be well worth it, the passengers should be the priority.

markpb

shltter wrote: »

His main complaint is that the 4 goes down O'Connell St my point is that if that is the quickest way through the city centre because of the bus priority measures that have been put in place in that area then it makes sense to use it.

I know you're right here but if DB continue pushing more routes through OCS, the street and it's stops will become congested by buses alone. At some point, DB need to start pushing trunk routes onto different streets. I know this isn't simple because not many streets like OCS exist and DCC will take ten years to redress the problems on those new streets but it has to happen sometime. As Traffic has already said, it's going to happen when the big dig for the metro starts so now is the time rather than rushing to make changes when the dig starts.

It would make no sense to have them meandering off the QBCs down streets with no bus priority.

Again I agree if you're in the suburbs but once you enter the city centre, there's no bus priority. Even OCS has no bus priority at all, it's just wider.

I'm not attacking DB here, I think it's a fault of the system. DCC provide no assistance to DB operating a service so DB retreat to the safety of streets that work well at the moment.

John R

markpb wrote: »

I fully agree with trunking routes in the suburbs, especially where a QBC exists. The reality is that there are no QBCs once you approach the city centre. Some streets are better than others but you're still comparing muck with sh1te when you're talking about bus priority in the city centre. Leaving the 4 running OCS, Parnell, Western and Phibsboro and deviating the 4A so it serves Dame St, Smithfield, Constitution and Phibsboro serves a greater area, adds more destination points from the Ballsbridge QBC and doesn't avoid any QBCs in the city centre but they don't exist. Arguably, there is greater bus priority along the keys than there is along Western way.

But then instead of having a reasonable frequency on a single corridor with both routes combined you would have two seperate routes with a frequency that is certain to leave large gaps and lengthy waiting times.

You have already pointed out that wait times can be too long, the only way to minimise this with current resources is to concentrate buses on trunk routes to at least provide the best possible frequency to the majority.

markpb

John R wrote: »

But then instead of having a reasonable frequency on a single corridor with both routes combined you would have two seperate routes with a frequency that is certain to leave large gaps and lengthy waiting times.

Not true. Anywhere south of Ballsbridge now has twice the frequency because the 4 and 4A are trunked on the Ballsbridge QBC. At a point after that, the routes split in two and serve different parts of the city centre before coming back together at Phibsboro and trunking all the way out to Harristown on the Ballymun QBC.

Where QBCs exist, they would continue to be used. Where demand is strongest, it would continue to be well served. The only change is the city centre streets that are served.

shltter

paulm17781 wrote: »

Right, deviating and taking a different, quicker route through the city, one people who get the 4 would be happy to use causes people to lose out. If the 83 uses bus lanes, and the 4 uses bus lanes, why not make the 4 use the same bus lanes in the city that the 83 uses? There is no problem doing this. I know, I know, the 83 takes that route it could be complimented by the 4 and make things better for passengers.

Ok the simple problem with your suggestion is that you have absolutely no evidence that the route you are suggesting is quicker or that the people using the 4 want to go that way.
Now I have already pointed out the route you are suggesting already has a Bus on it that means that DB know exactly how long it takes the 83 to get to O'Connell Bridge and how long it takes a 19. Based on that information they chose to run the 4 down O'Connell St.
Yes its not perfect but the evidence is that is the quicker route at this time.

paulm17781 wrote: »

So if DB were to ask the minister to allow them to make the 4 a better wider serving route tomorrow. Passengers are going to lose out? I see...

Better in your opinion you have offered no evidence other than your own opinion that this is better or would increase ridership.

paulm17781 wrote: »

I know Mark, it's amazing. Suggesting ways to make the bus service better with a little change and the DB lads go ballistic. It really does show a lot about the mindset of the company. Let's blame the minister and imply people are losing out if we open more of the city and bring more people to where they want to go. I'm actually not sure if they misunderstand or take every suggested change to DB as an insult to them. How was the 4A introduced if the Minister holds everything up? How could it not have been given a different route through the city?

I like the constant blaming of the Minister too. DB make no effort to make the routes more flexible or open the city for the majority of people, I'd be amazed if what I suggested was even considered by DB but somehow the Minster would hold this up. I often have to ask my boss for funding for new projects, I probably shouldn't bother, things will be delayed while he reads my proposals.

I don't know if you recall I once said in the thread about the Harristown strike that DB should make the default ticket valid for 90 minutes on all routes (like the ones available in a shop) and one of the other DB lads said "We don't offer that." The attitudes to change speak volumes really. I wonder how many of these lads actually suggest improvements to their management.

Nobody is going ballistic although once someone has the audacity to suggest that your ideas may not be better than the current routing you insist they have gone ballistic for some reason.
Change is good but change for changes sake is not if the 4 was being delayed in O'Connell St and the 83 was running free down church St and onto the quays i would agree 100% with your suggestion but you have offered no evidence that this is the case.

shltter

markpb wrote: »

Again I agree if you're in the suburbs but once you enter the city centre, there's no bus priority. Even OCS has no bus priority at all, it's just wider.

I'm not attacking DB here, I think it's a fault of the system. DCC provide no assistance to DB operating a service so DB retreat to the safety of streets that work well at the moment.

Well it is not bus priority but it is as close as we get the ban on the right turn from Sth Great Georges st and the ban on the Left turn from Dorset St limits the amount of private cars on O'Connell St to some extent in fact it pushes traffic towards the very junctions at Church st that Paul is suggesting.

I agree that everything can not and should not go down O'Connell St but forcing passengers onto a slower route as a point of principle makes no sense.

shltter

markpb wrote: »

Not true. Anywhere south of Ballsbridge now has twice the frequency because the 4 and 4A are trunked on the Ballsbridge QBC. At a point after that, the routes split in two and serve different parts of the city centre before coming back together at Phibsboro and trunking all the way out to Harristown on the Ballymun QBC.

Where QBCs exist, they would continue to be used. Where demand is strongest, it would continue to be well served. The only change is the city centre streets that are served.

Its not a bad idea if the routes were of similar running time but if they are not then all that would happen is packed 4s on O'Connell St as passengers pick the quicker route while empty 4As sit in traffic on Church St.

John R

paulm17781 wrote: »

which as I said, is no use for people in Ballymun / Blackrock. I don't see why It's fine for the 4,7,8,45 to take the same route but you have an issue with the 4 and 83 having a similar route. As I said this would increase usage and get more people where they want to go.

Again you don't LISTEN. One of the main aims of the 4 was to add capacity to the 7 route from O'CS to Ballsbridge/Blackrock which was one of the busiest routes in the city and would regularly fill up in the city with short/medium length passengers denying DunLaoghaire/Ballybrack passengers access.

Your contention that more people want to go to other parts are based on nothing but your own opinions and considering how much difficulty you seem to have taking in anything posted by others I don't consider your opinions well informed.

paulm17781 wrote: »

I know Mark, it's amazing. Suggesting ways to make the bus service better with a little change and the DB lads go ballistic. It really does show a lot about the mindset of the company. Let's blame the minister and imply people are losing out if we open more of the city and bring more people to where they want to go. I'm actually not sure if they misunderstand or take every suggested change to DB as an insult to them. How was the 4A introduced if the Minister holds everything up? How could it not have been given a different route through the city?

I like the constant blaming of the Minister too. DB make no effort to make the routes more flexible or open the city for the majority of people, I'd be amazed if what I suggested was even considered by DB but somehow the Minster would hold this up. I often have to ask my boss for funding for new projects, I probably shouldn't bother, things will be delayed while he reads my proposals.

I don't know if you recall I once said in the thread about the Harristown strike that DB should make the default ticket valid for 90 minutes on all routes (like the ones available in a shop) and one of the other DB lads said "We don't offer that." The attitudes to change speak volumes really. I wonder how many of these lads actually suggest improvements to their management.

Your snide comments about other posters does not help your arguement one bit. If you spent less time picking at shltter's posts, intentionally trying to wind him up with stupid personal remarks and instead took in some of the valid points he made you just might learn something.

John R

markpb wrote: »

Not true. Anywhere south of Ballsbridge now has twice the frequency because the 4 and 4A are trunked on the Ballsbridge QBC. At a point after that, the routes split in two and serve different parts of the city centre before coming back together at Phibsboro and trunking all the way out to Harristown on the Ballymun QBC.

Where QBCs exist, they would continue to be used. Where demand is strongest, it would continue to be well served. The only change is the city centre streets that are served.

People waiting in the OCS area specifically for a 4 northbound would have a worse frequency and the 4A deviation would be little used as the 4A has gaps of up to 30mns throughout the day, very few people would put up with that for a regular service.

The idea of serving more areas with through routes is a good one but it needs to be done properly and not at the detriment of the established busy corridors. More buses serving new routes are needed, not diverting buses from already crammed services that despite the BS posted by certain people ARE serving areas that a great deal of passengers want to go to.

You said yourself that you had an extended wait on what is one of the basic core corridors, when even the main trunk routes are in desperate need of more buses there is no justification in splitting resources to serve un-prioritised secondary corridors. Unfortunately DB do not have the luxury of being able to fine-tune their network to give the best options for all journeys, they are only just able to run enough buses on the main trunks to give a useable service for the most popular trips.

It is all well and good for the likes of paul to draw lines on maps but the reality is that DB has to provide for the people already standing at bus stops across the city before considering developing new routes and rhere is no shortage of customers of existing routes on boards that will tell you that additional resources are desperately required.

I should also point out that the route you suggest is also very congested. Dame St, Cristchurch, Bridge St and Church St in particular are usually very slow and have little bus priority, the 83 can take a long time getting from Broadstone to the Quays at present.

shltter

John R wrote: »

I should also point out that the route you suggest is also very congested. Dame St, Cristchurch, Bridge St and Church St in particular are usually very slow and have little bus priority, the 83 can take a long time getting from Broadstone to the Quays at present.

Exactly my point John and you could only imagine the hullabaloo on places like this complaining about Dublin Bus wasting resources with buses stuck in traffic and ignoring the priority measures DCC has made on the OCS.

KC61

John R wrote: »

I should also point out that the route you suggest is also very congested. Dame St, Cristchurch, Bridge St and Church St in particular are usually very slow and have little bus priority, the 83 can take a long time getting from Broadstone to the Quays at present.

From my own observations, loadings on the 83 suggest that it is not quite as popular a routing as Paul might suggest...I've never seen a near full 83, while the 4 and 4A are frequently heavily loaded.

As John states, the 4 and 4A were designed with relieving the already overcrowded route 7 service on the southside and the 13, 13A, 19 and 19A on the northside in mind.

Hotblack Desiato

John R wrote: »

Unfortunately DB do not have the luxury of being able to fine-tune their network to give the best options for all journeys, they are only just able to run enough buses on the main trunks to give a useable service for the most popular trips.

Change the word 'able' to the word 'permitted' and I think we have a fuller picture. :mad:

It is all well and good for the likes of paul to draw lines on maps but the reality is that DB has to provide for the people already standing at bus stops across the city before considering developing new routes and rhere is no shortage of customers of existing routes on boards that will tell you that additional resources are desperately required.

I suggest you add paulm17781 to ignore file, it greatly improves the signal to noise ratio around here.

SRBRGS

This route has been very unreliable in the morning time over the last few weeks. This morning by 8.25 neither the 8.00 nor the 8.15 bus had arrived! Not good enough after recent assurances that we'd be seeing an improved service.

-Chris-

Zombie thread closed.

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