Limerick-Waterford train (split)

fricatus

trellheim wrote: »

Waterford and Limerick are already linked by choo-choo. [ and it doesn't get many riders by all accounts [

Hardly surprising, given the timetables. That's one line that would be used by commuters at either end, if only the schedule was suitable.

The first train from Clonmel to Waterford via Carrick-on-Suir gets in at 10.32 and the last train back goes at 16.38. What use is that to anyone with a normal job?

I have a friend near Tipp town who works in Waterford and drives back and forth every day. He knows of three other people who do the same thing, and reckons there are more like him who would use a sensible train service if such a thing existed. He texted Newstalk when yer man Barry Kenny was on, but his text was not read out.

The timetable from Tipp to Limerick is a bit more sensible (there's a 17.55 train leaving Limk), but the first arrival into the city in the morning is at 9.15 - once again, too late for someone with a normal job.

I've heard a nasty and unfounded rumour that IÉ deliberately run a crappy schedule on that line so that passenger numbers will fall and they can justify closing it. But our national rail company would never stoop to such levels, right?

fricatus

fricatus wrote: »

I've heard a nasty and unfounded rumour that IÉ deliberately run a crappy schedule on that line so that passenger numbers will fall and they can justify closing it. But our national rail company would never stoop to such levels, right?

I remember reading an article in a Sunday newspaper where an Irish rail spokesperson said that it would be cheaper to taxi, put up in a hotel and offer a meal to a ticket holder than to run that service.

As mentioned, the times do not suit, which is just a shame as it is a great line, especially when you leave waterford for wexford, some scenery.

Also, here in Tipp, on the main Dublin Cork line, if you wanted to get to limerick by train, the earliest you can get into limerick is by 9.15. what good is that to anyone working, college, etc.

It's a bloody Joke! No wonder you have to drive.

fricatus

NoDrama wrote: »

As mentioned, the times do not suit, which is just a shame as it is a great line, especially when you leave waterford for wexford, some scenery.

At least the train coming in from Wexford arrives and leaves at workable times (08:23 and 17:34), but if you miss the train home, you're taking a taxi, because there's only one!

Agreed on the scenery... the Suir east of Waterford up to where the railway line crosses the Barrow is a gorgeous area. Just a pity I can't take a train down to Wexford to sample it. I'd have to stay overnight!

KC61

fricatus wrote: »

Hardly surprising, given the timetables. That's one line that would be used by commuters at either end, if only the schedule was suitable.

The first train from Clonmel to Waterford via Carrick-on-Suir gets in at 10.32 and the last train back goes at 16.38. What use is that to anyone with a normal job?

I have a friend near Tipp town who works in Waterford and drives back and forth every day. He knows of three other people who do the same thing, and reckons there are more like him who would use a sensible train service if such a thing existed. He texted Newstalk when yer man Barry Kenny was on, but his text was not read out.

The timetable from Tipp to Limerick is a bit more sensible (there's a 17.55 train leaving Limk), but the first arrival into the city in the morning is at 9.15 - once again, too late for someone with a normal job.

I've heard a nasty and unfounded rumour that IÉ deliberately run a crappy schedule on that line so that passenger numbers will fall and they can justify closing it. But our national rail company would never stoop to such levels, right?

The timetable is designed with passengers travelling to Dublin via Limerick Junction in mind from Clonmel, Cahir and Tipperary and v.v. , which it does very well.

There is not sufficient rolling stock available to operate a commuter service into Waterford at present, and until the line is fully relaid it remains quite tricky to schedule the services, given there is a very long single track section with no passing loop from Tipperary to Clonmel.

The reason that the train waits at Limerick Junction is to give a connection to Dublin, and to take a connection from the Dublin-Cork train for Limerick. Until the 6 minute time buffer that is built into the Dublin-Cork schedule is removed, and trains accelerated, the connecting train will have to wait at Limerick Junction until 0843.

I think you are reading a little bit too much into the situation!!!

KC61

And to emphasise, passenger numbers are rising on the route, not falling.

This is because for the first time there is actually a schedule that people might use.

The commuter services will follow in time when rolling stock is available. However, the first priority remains getting the line relaid to an acceptable standard, resignalled, and hopefully the passing loop at Tipperary moved to Cahir to try and improve operational flexibility.

9.15 limerick.

Thats coming from Thurles.

Surely being 2008, it isn't difficult to provide public transport at times to which the public can use.

Alternative, is to buy, tax, insure a car.

Simple as.

And no reading too much into that.

Ham'nd'egger

NoDrama wrote: »

9.15 limerick.

Thats coming from Thurles.

Surely being 2008, it isn't difficult to provide public transport at times to which the public can use.

For the times you refer to, this is peak time for Irish Rail and Bus Eireann. it goes without saying that they would be better off running a service earlier, but with what train or bus? In the case of making available an additional train, it is quite difficult and lengthy to implement.

A new railcar costs over €6.5 million per 3 car set for the new 22000 Class, and will take 5-6 years from the point of agreeing to the relevant specifications, prep of tenders, advertising of same, acceptance, building, delivery, pre tests and safety checks and staff training. And in between all of this, timetabling and staffing plans have to be drawn out in order to ensure staff levels are there to keep the set on the road, as well as making time for it on the network. I would imagine that airlines would have as long a process to undergo to roll out new planes.

Buses will take less time, but they still undergo the tendering and building process, which is still quite long and arduous.

KC61

NoDrama wrote: »

9.15 limerick.

Thats coming from Thurles.

Surely being 2008, it isn't difficult to provide public transport at times to which the public can use.

Alternative, is to buy, tax, insure a car.

Simple as.

And no reading too much into that.

The basic problem is that there is no available rolling stock to operate such a service at the moment.

This will change in the next two years as more Class 22000 railcars come on stream and I would hope that the situation would improve with additional services to the city in the early morning. We already know that the Nenagh branch commuter service will start in 2008, and there is no reason why other services can develop in time.

No one doubts that there is potential on all of the lines into Limerick for commuter services, but it boils down to the availablity of rolling stock, and paths (i.e. space on tracks) to do it. At the moment, the line from Limerick to Limerick Junction is one of the most intensively used sections of single track in the country (with only one passing loop at Dromkeen), and there is very little "wriggle room" to add extra trains.

As speeds improve on the Dublin-Cork line and the 6 minute-additional running time included to facilitate the Kildare Route Project is removed, the connection to Limerick will leave Limerick Junction earlier.

Victor

Split from: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055211740

Slice

The basic problem is that there is no available rolling stock to operate such a service at the moment.

That's such a cop out. If the intention was there then rolling stock would be found somewhere - either bought second hand from a British operator as Translink use to do or to refurbish one of the existing rolling stock that we're curruntly taking out of service because all the new rolling stock we're getting.

L1011

Buying s/hand from anywhere except Brazil and bits of Australia requires majro engineering work to make it run on our wider gauge tracks

The carraiges going out of service now are B.E.R. The MkII floors have corroded beyond repair.

Ham'nd'egger

Slice wrote: »

That's such a cop out. If the intention was there then rolling stock would be found somewhere - either bought second hand from a British operator as Translink use to do or to refurbish one of the existing rolling stock that we're curruntly taking out of service because all the new rolling stock we're getting.

Slice wrote: »

That's such a cop out. If the intention was there then rolling stock would be found somewhere - either bought second hand from a British operator as Translink use to do or to refurbish one of the existing rolling stock that we're curruntly taking out of service because all the new rolling stock we're getting.

Slice, you may not have read this bit of my last post or any of KC's? I repost it again as it is utterly relevant to your post.

A new railcar costs over €6.5 million per 3 car set for the new 22000 Class, and will take 5-6 years from the point of agreeing to the relevant specifications, prep of tenders, advertising of same, acceptance, building, delivery, pre tests and safety checks and staff training.

In short, it is not a quick fix solution. In regards to Mark 3 stock, these would be 20 years old+ so they may be held onto. Trouble is, there is a reduced amount of duties for same so it may not be economical to do same.

Translink bought disused UK stock once (The Gatwick sets) as the NI government has made little funding available to them over the years; they see one regular run a day and occasional stand by duties. The 450 Class date back to the 1980s and are rebuild from Mark 1 carriage under frames and Class 70 railcar engines; they can be dated to be over 40 years old. The 80 Class railcar is over 30 years old and retired, yet it has been kept in service due to chronic shortages of rolling stock.

L1011

the Gatwicks run at all these days?

KC61

Slice wrote: »

That's such a cop out. If the intention was there then rolling stock would be found somewhere - either bought second hand from a British operator as Translink use to do or to refurbish one of the existing rolling stock that we're curruntly taking out of service because all the new rolling stock we're getting.

I would still make the point that the line is not being ignored. Far from it. There are now four return workings on the route, which has never happened before, all at times that should result in reasonable numbers using it as they offer reasonable connections at Limerick Junction.

At the end of this year when all of the new railcars have been delivered there will be an opportunity to:
1) Add commuter services (particularly Clonmel-Waterford)
2) Increase the speed of services on the route

The Mark 2 stock that is being withdrawn is 36 years old this year and even the one refurbished set of this stock is on its last legs.

KC61

MYOB wrote: »

the Gatwicks run at all these days?

They are used on a daily Portadown-Belfast Central journey and as a backup to the Enterprise in case of a failure.

KC61

Personally I believe that there is a good case for refurbishing roughly 6 sets of Mark 3 coaches and purchasing unused Driving Trailers from the UK and converting the sets to 100mph push/pull operation, but we shall have to wait and see what happens on that front.

L1011

I thought there were plans to keep all the Mk 3 stock for "emergencies", but yes, a mid-life refurb now would keep them going in to the 2020s if we're lucky, they're still good my modern safety and comfort standards too. How many DVT's do IE have for them?

There is the general weakness of the 201 in head end power operation to be concerend about. Well, more the flame bit...

L1011

KC61 wrote: »

They are used on a daily Portadown-Belfast Central journey and as a backup to the Enterprise in case of a failure.

I'd prefer a C3K than those old ropers in case of a failure!

KC61

MYOB wrote: »

I thought there were plans to keep all the Mk 3 stock for "emergencies", but yes, a mid-life refurb now would keep them going in to the 2020s if we're lucky, they're still good my modern safety and comfort standards too. How many DVT's do IE have for them?

There is the general weakness of the 201 in head end power operation to be concerend about. Well, more the flame bit...

Well there is uncertainty as to how many will be retained, and no word on any refurbishment programme as yet.

Regards obtaining other stock, the amount of work required to make them suitable for Irish use would be so great that it would probably take the same length of time to implement as introducing the new railcars that are currently being commissioned, hence it really is irrelevant.

Partizan

The lack of a Sunday service on the Limerick-Waterford-Rosslare route is an absolute joke. By not running a Sunday service, IE are excluding a huge swathe of the market, i.e. students, daytrippers, tourists and commuters.

One service each day to Rosslare (Wexford & Enniscorthy), wtf?

The New Ross line, another important commuter line is also closed as is the Waterford-Dungarvan route which has huge potential.

Hopefully with more rolling stock the people of the South East will get a proper rail service.

Ham'nd'egger

Partizan wrote: »

The lack of a Sunday service on the Limerick-Waterford-Rosslare route is an absolute joke. By not running a Sunday service, IE are excluding a huge swathe of the market, i.e. students, daytrippers, tourists and commuters.

One service each day to Rosslare (Wexford & Enniscorthy), wtf?

The New Ross line, another important commuter line is also closed as is the Waterford-Dungarvan route which has huge potential.

Hopefully with more rolling stock the people of the South East will get a proper rail service.

The Waterford-Dungarvan-Mallow line has been closed over 40 years and was never a busy line for passengers. The last time a train went into New Ross was in the mid 90's; it's passenger services have also been withdrawn since the mid 60's. What amount of people are commuting to and from Waterford daily, do you know?

I agree that the level of services on the Rosslare lines are poor but again it is lack of rolling stock to put on this service. These are ear marked to improve in the near future.

loyatemu

if the Navan line is on the borderline of viability then I don't think there's much point in grumbling about the new ross line which has been closed (to passengers) for decades and connects a small town with a very small city.

Slice

Quote:
The basic problem is that there is no available rolling stock to operate such a service at the moment.

That's such a cop out. If the intention was there then rolling stock would be found somewhere - either bought second hand from a British operator as Translink use to do or to refurbish one of the existing rolling stock that we're curruntly taking out of service because all the new rolling stock we're getting.

Perhaps some posters have misunderstood my point - what i mean to highlight is the fact that new rolling stock has been forthcoming on practically all other routes in this country - the lack of new rolling stock for this route or the associated cost involved in obtaining new rolling stock is not the reason for the poor service between Waterford and Limerick but a only symptom of other reason/s why there's only ever been a poxy service here.

trellheim

the Navan line is on the borderline of viability

if you believe the iE numbers that are there to prove that it is borderline viable
...

wait till the M3 toll starts going in then you might see a change.

Partizan

Hamndegger wrote: »

The Waterford-Dungarvan-Mallow line has been closed over 40 years and was never a busy line for passengers. The last time a train went into New Ross was in the mid 90's; it's passenger services have also been withdrawn since the mid 60's. What amount of people are commuting to and from Waterford daily, do you know?

I agree that the level of services on the Rosslare lines are poor but again it is lack of rolling stock to put on this service. These are ear marked to improve in the near future.

A recent survey by South East on Track, a rail lobby group stated that there were in excess of 500 individual car journeys daily between Waterford & Dungarvan (thats just to Dungarvan doesnt include any of the intermediate towns). The line was closed in 1967 but the population then was light in comparison to today where the city has spread westwards to include Carriganore, Butlerstown/Kilmeaden and Kilmac that are today busy commuter towns. Have you seen that road in the mornings and in the evening, its chock a block. If you had a commuter service say between Kilmac and Waterford and installed a park and ride at Kilmeadan, there would most definitley be a noticeable result. West of the City is crying out for proper public transport.

The New Ross line should definitley be looked into as there is heavy traffic on the road daily going to and from Waterford.

The Waterford & Tramore line should never have been closed down.

Getting back to the Limerick Junct-Waterford-Rosslare line, its a scandal that there still in this day & age a Sunday service. What have you heard regarding future plans for the line?

Finally, Waterford to Kilkenny line, I think there could be a feasability study down to maybe reopen Mullinavat station that would serve the hinterland of south KK.

KC61

Slice wrote: »

Perhaps some posters have misunderstood my point - what i mean to highlight is the fact that new rolling stock has been forthcoming on practically all other routes in this country - the lack of new rolling stock for this route or the associated cost involved in obtaining new rolling stock is not the reason for the poor service between Waterford and Limerick but a only symptom of other reason/s why there's only ever been a poxy service here.

And I think Slice you're missing my point.

"New" rolling stock is not the issue. "Available" rolling stock is.

There are two 2700 Class units available to run the service on the line from Limerick Junction to Waterford and on to Rosslare. These now facilitate 4 trains in each direction from between Waterford and Limerick Junction, again a huge increase on 2004 when there was only one train each way and the line was threatened with closure.

This rolling stock is perfect for this route so that is not an issue. It is only between 8 and 9 years old.

What *could* happen in next December's timetable is that with the availablity of the new 22000 Class railcars, an extra Waterford-Dublin service between the existing 0735 and 1045 trains is quite likely. There is no reason why the rolling stock that will be assigned to this service could not operate from Waterford to Clonmel at about 0600 to operate a return commuter service to Waterford between 0730 and 0745 once the train to Limerick Junction has passed.

The evening service from Waterford to Limerick Junction (currently 1638) could be deferred to between 1745 and 1750 thereby offering a return commuter service.

Why can't this happen now? The problem is that there is no rolling stock available to operate the morning service to Waterford from Clonmel. The two units are already deployed on other services (0635 Waterford-Limerick Junction -offering an early morning connection to Dublin) and the 0705 Rosslare-Waterford.

The deployment of 22000 stock on the Mallow-Tralee route later in the year will release the 2700 stock currently in service there which ought to transfer to Limerick for use on the Western Rail Corridor and other services, which could include a commuter service to Limerick.

I have to dispute that the line has a "poxy" service. It now has four trains each way, something that no one thought would happen five years ago, which is more trains each day than Westport!!! It has gone from carrying no one due to a chronically timed one train in each direction to seeing increasing numbers (despite very poor marketing by IÉ) with four trains each way timed specifically to make connections at Limerick Junction.

The future holds the potential for faster journeys in 2009 as the line speed is increased, the possibility of the development of a commuter service to Waterford from Clonmel, and resignalling en route, all of which was not even on the horizon five years ago.

Try to remember that this line suffered from decades of no investment, a total lack of interest by CIE management, and was earmarked for closure. Slowly but surely it is being turned around and each timetable over the past few years has seen improvements over the previous one and 2009 should be the same. All of this has been achieved through more intensive use of the existing rolling stock and made possible as the standard of track on the route has been improved (in sections) with continuous welded rail.

Slice

You're right, I totally miss your point

KC61

The problem with Sundays is the sheer number of level crossings on the route, each of which is manually staffed. At present the line is closed from Saturday evening until Monday morning. The cost of opening the line on Sundays would not even have come close (until recently) to comparing with the revenues generated. However, as passenger numbers increase I think that this will become a non-issue, and I think an evening Waterford-Limerick Junction service and return will become a no-brainer as IÉ tap into the student/weekend market and give the line the boost it deserves.

Tadhg17

NoDrama wrote: »

As mentioned, the times do not suit, which is just a shame as it is a great line, especially when you leave waterford for wexford, some scenery.

Also, here in Tipp, on the main Dublin Cork line, if you wanted to get to limerick by train, the earliest you can get into limerick is by 9.15. what good is that to anyone working, college, etc.

It's a bloody Joke! No wonder you have to drive.

Limerick Junction is in Tipperary on the Dublin-Cork line and you can get into Limerick for work/college before 9am. A train leaves Limerick Junction for Limerick at 8am, arrives in Limerick at 8:36am.

Train leaving Limerick for Limerick Junction in the evening at 17:55.

Would there be any interest in tipp for running a direct commuter service from Cahir/Tipperary town to Limerick in the mornings and a return in the evenings?

Ham'nd'egger

Partizan wrote: »

A recent survey by South East on Track, a rail lobby group stated that there were in excess of 500 individual car journeys daily between Waterford & Dungarvan (thats just to Dungarvan doesnt include any of the intermediate towns). The line was closed in 1967 but the population then was light in comparison to today where the city has spread westwards to include Carriganore, Butlerstown/Kilmeaden and Kilmac that are today busy commuter towns. Have you seen that road in the mornings and in the evening, its chock a block. If you had a commuter service say between Kilmac and Waterford and installed a park and ride at Kilmeadan, there would most definitley be a noticeable result. West of the City is crying out for proper public transport.

The New Ross line should definitley be looked into as there is heavy traffic on the road daily going to and from Waterford.

The Waterford & Tramore line should never have been closed down.

Getting back to the Limerick Junct-Waterford-Rosslare line, its a scandal that there still in this day & age a Sunday service. What have you heard regarding future plans for the line?

Finally, Waterford to Kilkenny line, I think there could be a feasability study down to maybe reopen Mullinavat station that would serve the hinterland of south KK.

Without taking away from your point, the passengers in 500 car trips would fit into two railcar trips with ease. How many of these trips would be replaced by a rail trip? Ditto for New Ross, will locals actually use the line? In all fairness, these numbers you suggest are nowhere near what would justify the cost of relaying and rebuilding the line; maybe an improved bus service would be a more apt and far cheaper solution.

I'd agree with you on the Tramore line; it was apparently making a small day to day profit when closed but it's isolation from other lines worked against it's survival.

Waterford-Rosslare on a Sunday is on the way sometime, when rolling stock is free; I'd not expect it until at least 2010 to be honest.

Slice

Without taking away from your point, the passengers in 500 car trips would fit into two railcar trips with ease. How many of these trips would be replaced by a rail trip?

Isn't modal shift normally 20%?

KC61

Slice wrote: »

You're right, I totally miss your point

My point is that the service has improved on the route with each timetable change since 2004, and is not "poxy". There has never been 4 trains per day on the route before 2008. It cannot get any better (no matter how much we may all want it) until the new rolling stock arrives that will release other stock to facilitate commuter services and the speed restrictions on the route lifted.

MYOB

MYOB wrote: »

I thought there were plans to keep all the Mk 3 stock for "emergencies", but yes, a mid-life refurb now would keep them going in to the 2020s if we're lucky, they're still good my modern safety and comfort standards too. How many DVT's do IE have for them?

There is the general weakness of the 201 in head end power operation to be concerend about. Well, more the flame bit...

IÉ have five DVTs, 6101-6105. But their generator can only provide half the power of those in the Mk3 guards vans. Hence why the push pull sets have no air conditioning except for one snack car coach. They're also limited to 70mph because I think one of them has bogies from an 8100 DART which aren't designed for high speed work.

Flames? I'm guessing you're referring to 206. That loco is lucky to even be running again. Badly damaged by fire in 2003 while on Enterprise duty. All because of head end power.

Hamndegger wrote: »

The Waterford-Dungarvan-Mallow line has been closed over 40 years and was never a busy line for passengers. The last time a train went into New Ross was in the mid 90's; it's passenger services have also been withdrawn since the mid 60's. What amount of people are commuting to and from Waterford daily, do you know?

I think the last train was a weedsprayer in 1995 hauled by 121, the weeds caught fire, engulfed the loco and it never ran again!

L1011

Karsini wrote: »

They're also limited to 70mph because I think one of them has bogies from an 8100 DART which aren't designed for high speed work.

I'd forgotten about that - I'd be concerned that any attempt to buy in s/hand ex-BR DVTs would lead to Irish Rail remembering they have 4 fire damaged 8100's sitting around and deciding to donate those bogies again...