Could this DTT 'problem' ever happen here?

a bientot

http://asia.cnet.com/blogs/hktechphooey/post.htm?id=63001711

Sponge Bob

You mean could we have 50% population coverage like Hong Kong already does , maybe in 2010

Have we agreed on a spec for Commercial DTT and HD like Hong Kong did last JUNE , have we ****

( Higher Tier) Receivers shall be capable of decoding all
video streams complied with ISO/IEC
14496-10 (or H.264 AVC) Main Profile at
Level 3.0 in accordance with ETSI TS 101
154. Receivers shall also be capable of
decoding all video streams complied with
either:
a) ISO/IEC 14496-10 High Profile at
Level 4.0; or
b) ISO/IEC 13818-2 Main Profile at
High Level
and in either one of the following formats :
i) 1920 pixels x 1080 lines interlaced
ii) 1280 pixels x 720 lines progressive
in accordance with ETSI TS 101 154.
Receivers shall be capable of converting
(including up-converting or down-converting)
the received SD and HD signals in all formats
to cope with the native resolution of their
display panels or the viewers’ display units
whichever is applicable.

Is there an approval scheme in Ireland so that UK DTT boxes and TVs are not sold as 'suitable' in our shops , is there ****

watty

Of course there is no Logo scheme or approval scheme.
We know the spec is MPG4/MPEG2 with MHEG5.

We know that esp when Sky launches its MPEG4 payTV terrestrial service that MPEG2 only obsolete boxes will be dumped below cost here.

Our service should be 100% MPEG4, but will be fudged with RTE having to waste bandwidth doing some MPEG2 for those that bought UK boxes and the rest of the services MPEG4.
So two tier viewership and waste of bandwidth.

They should ban sale of MPEG2 only boxes now.
From Jan 2009 any tuner should be MPEG4 & MPEG2 only or else DTT + Analogue, Analogue only tuners sales illegal from 2009

But they won't do that either.

Antenna

watty wrote: »

They should ban sale of MPEG2 only boxes now.
From Jan 2009 any tuner should be MPEG4 & MPEG2 only or else DTT + Analogue, Analogue only tuners sales illegal from 2009

Perhaps a requirement that non-approved sets would have to be clearly indicated and labeled by the retailer as being unsuitable for reception (without additional equipment) of Irish Digital Terrestrial television, but is talking about a ban going too far? There was never any ban introduced in this country on for example the sale of radios without the FM band - there is nothing stopping anyone from today selling a radio with just MW/LW even though FM is needed for reception of nearly all domestic broadcasts. No country introduced a ban on the sale of analogue-only satellite receivers either.

A ban on a certain date would lead to existing stocks of TVs having to be destroyed, which would be wasteful. Some people may be happy to purchase the TV purely as a 'monitor' for a cable/MMDS/SKY receiver or just to play DVDs etc, or they have no problem with using a settop DTT box, or a DTT tuner in a DVD recorder etc. So long as the purchaser is made fully aware that the set itself is not (built-in) suitable for Irish DTT before purchase, I don't see any need for a ban.

Doodler

Interesting that HK seems to have also adopted a 2-tier system, as we seem to expect here.

Not sure I understand why:

MPEG4 set top boxes are already available (in HK, I think also in France). By the time DTT goes live/official, the cost of these will be below €100 for sure. Main difference between M4 and M2 is efficiency, with M4 being (I think) roughly 4 times better (whether with HD or SD content).

So why not just go for MPEG4 only? - Make better use of our bandwidth for all channel types?

Is the cost of transmission equipment so much more expensive, or is it some other factor I am missing entirely?

Can someone explain?

Sponge Bob

watty wrote: »

Our service should be 100% MPEG4, but will be fudged with RTE having to waste bandwidth doing some MPEG2 for those that bought UK boxes and the rest of the services MPEG4.
So two tier viewership and waste of bandwidth.

But surely thats why there should be an approvals process so that irish compatible boxes are whats sold . Ireland should not have a lower tier as in HK, upper tier only . The HK approval process does not include crypto and a ci slot though

They should ban sale of MPEG2 only boxes now.
From Jan 2009 any tuner should be MPEG4 & MPEG2 only or else DTT + Analogue, Analogue only tuners sales illegal from 2009

But they won't do that either.

They cannot do that , They make perfectly acceptable doorstops or bookends for your shelves and are 'fit for the purpose' as long as you travel to the UK on occasion.

lawhec

watty wrote: »

Of course there is no Logo scheme or approval scheme.
We know the spec is MPG4/MPEG2 with MHEG5.

We know that esp when Sky launches its MPEG4 payTV terrestrial service that MPEG2 only obsolete boxes will be dumped below cost here.

Our service should be 100% MPEG4, but will be fudged with RTE having to waste bandwidth doing some MPEG2 for those that bought UK boxes and the rest of the services MPEG4.
So two tier viewership and waste of bandwidth.

They should ban sale of MPEG2 only boxes now.
From Jan 2009 any tuner should be MPEG4 & MPEG2 only or else DTT + Analogue, Analogue only tuners sales illegal from 2009

But they won't do that either.

First there is no certainty that Sky will be allowed to launch their "Picnic" service in the UK and IMHO they shouldn't be allowed to do so. Even if it is launched, there's no guarantee it'll be successful - Top Up TV only survives as a niche player and has struggled to make any real impact and had to turn around its time-shared channels into one with just two live streams and an on-demand service. Sky will never pitch such a service that looks more attractive than its satellite offering.

Any ban on MPEG2 only tuners is likely to fall foul of EU regulations. Posters on Digital Spy for years have been calling for the banning of analogue only tuners but have been let known that this would be illegal.

I've been looking at a French DTT website, tvnt.net to look for information on STBs with MPEG-4 H.264 and the only STB's they profile have MPEG-2 only. Has DTT Pay-TV services started in France yet?

I do know that MPEG-4 is being used on its own in Norway & Estonia while it's also planned for New Zealand (and in Brazil, but not with DVB-T), but they're hardly areas which can stimulate mass market producement of STBs on its own. My guess is that MPEG-2 is being used solely for the SD versions of the 4 terrestial networks for the time being with a view of full MPEG-4 somewhere down the line, say 2015 when hopefully all DVB-T tuners will have DVB-T2 and MPEG4 AVC or better as standard. Also as well as that the MHEG-5 interactive platform for DTT is being used nowhere else other that the UK right now in Europe. I believe that its this decision that is motivating MPEG-2 to be included.

Sponge Bob

lawhec wrote: »

I believe that its this decision that is motivating MPEG-2 to be included.

I believe that some of the currently secret shortlist of partners that RTÉ has sought (for the DTT rollout) are pressing RTE to go mpeg2 not least because they have mpeg2 sd transmission gear by the truckload and cheap.

Step forward there Arqiva

On the other hand the BCI will mandate MPEG4 but there may be some questions about the enforcement .

marclt

watty wrote: »

Of course there is no Logo scheme or approval scheme.
We know the spec is MPG4/MPEG2 with MHEG5.

We know that esp when Sky launches its MPEG4 payTV terrestrial service that MPEG2 only obsolete boxes will be dumped below cost here.

.

Well we *STILL* don't know what ofcom's decision will be on the Sky DTT proposal... it has been out to consultation - we'll know something in the new year. Sky are quite happy signing up prospective channels - but that doesn't mean they've got the go ahead. Frankly, I think freeview should be just that - FREE! We already have a subscription based service Top Up TV and setanta and adult channels. Now Sky want to launch another range of services.

Even by launching in MPEG 4, they propose replacing their current 3 free services with 4 subscription channels.


I don't see why the Irish Govt or the consumer body hasn't thought ahead to digital switchover - they know it's coming the EU has said so... so why not start raising awareness on the issue. But then we tend to live with reactive politics....

It's only now that consumers in the UK are being actively advised to look for the 'digital tick' on dvd recorders etc.... i bought one last year (analogue only) but don't plan on replacing it before switchover... you can never plan ahead too early!!!!

watty

Sky will get to do what they want.

2 x MPEG4 channels = one MPEG2 channel for decent quality.

For SD, not HD, there is a module for CAM slot that is CAM and card reader and MPEG4 to MPEG2 convertor. That's how the French TNT MPEG4 has been running.

The CI Module approach can never work for HD, only MPEG4 SD.

The Beond 1300 / Plustron / Dunnes DVD recorder has composite (no RGB) SCART and Analogue Tuner recording very nice. But no digital tuner, hence being "dumped" here at less than 1/2 the original German Retail price. It has 5.1 decoder built in for dumb 6ch Audio amps, progressive/component (value for NTSC discs and/or video projector) as well as RGB SCART out and WS/4:3 switching that works. So good value.

Obviously something with an analogue tuner could be sold as a monitor or player. Somehow. At some stage Analogue only tuner TVs do have to be banned. Since Switch off is not Europew Wide cordinated, the tuner issue can't be either.

Otherwise the States with late switch offs ARE going to have Analogue only product dumped.