Youtube video of mob in turkey

Morlar

I think this video from 2 nights ago illustrates graphically just how ready 'the lovely muslim men' of turkey are to join europe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjYYuj0Bz5o

djpbarry

Morlar wrote: »

I think this video from 2 nights ago illustrates graphically just how ready 'the lovely muslim men' of turkey are to join europe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjYYuj0Bz5o

Turkey should not be allowed join the EU because you found a video of a few pervy bastards in Istanbul (I think, but can't be sure) on New Year's Eve?

Morlar

Thats not what I said and you know it. It does graphically illustrate an area of religious / cultural incompatibility which is a consideration in the overall discussion - dont you think ?

Ps its not a few - its several hundred. Its several thousand if you include the people laughing about it and leering who did not make any attempt to intervene to protect those 'uncovered' women. Read the op's comments for more info.

djpbarry

Morlar wrote: »

It does graphically illustrate an area of religious / cultural incompatibility which is a consideration in the overall discussion - dont you think ?

No it does not. It illustrates what can happen when a group of randy scumbags get drunk in the presence of women.

Morlar wrote: »

Ps its not a few - its several hundred. Its several thousand if you include the people laughing about it and leering who did not make any attempt to intervene to protect those 'uncovered' women.

That is a really stupid assumption. We are talking about Taksim Square in the middle of Istanbul. There probably are several thousand people present celebrating the New Year, as there would be in Leicester Square in London or Times Square in New York. But to suggest that they are all somehow involved in harassing these women, or even that they are all aware of what is happening, is utter nonsense.

To put it simply, you are tarring all Turks with the same brush. Perhaps you should read about some experiences that other tourists have had in Turkey:
http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopic-g293974-i368-k1434815-Random_Acts_of_Kindness-Istanbul.html

You are also implying that this sort of thing is exclusive to Turkey, which is also nonsense:
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/one-rape-or-sex-assault-every-day-over-christmas-holidays-1256250.html

Morlar

djpbarry wrote: »

No it does not.

I believe it does. I have never seen crowds of literally hundreds of men collectively repeatedly groping and pawing a handful of seriously distressed (ie screaming) women on the street in say dublin, london or paris or berlin etc - have you ?

I never said that every single person in the crowd is actively involved. Unlike dublin, london paris etc - not one local person could be seen to intervene (ie not one turkish person intervened) aside from the police who basically had to setup a cordon to usher the western women out of there rather than remove the guilty parties. In a western european capital the police would approach that situation from a point of view of arresting the guilty not removing the 'temptation'.

Whether you like it or not this is related to islamic society treatment of women. You can either put it down to a cultural or a religious aspect if you like but it is clearly present in turkey in 2008. This obviously has relevance when discussing the overall suitability of Turkey for eu membership.

djpbarry wrote: »

It illustrates what can happen when a group of randy scumbags get drunk in the presence of women.

If you are trying to down play this as one or two bad apples - you are being a bit disingenous or were not paying attention to that footage - if any of those women were your sister or your girlfriend I doubt you would you be so blase and dismissive of it.

djpbarry

Morlar wrote: »

I have never seen crowds of literally hundreds of men collectively repeatedly groping and pawing a handful of seriously distressed (ie screaming) women on the street in say dublin, london or paris or berlin etc - have you ?

First of all, we are talking about a group of maybe 50 youths, not "hundreds of men". Secondly, I posted a link to a story about the spate of rapes and sexual assaults in Ireland over the Christmas and New Year period. Does that mean that rape is part of Irish culture?

Morlar wrote: »

Unlike dublin, london paris etc - not one local person could be seen to intervene...

You don't know that. This is one witness' view of events. You don't know what happened off-camera. You also don't know who the cameraman is, or whether the video has been edited or not.

Morlar wrote: »

...aside from the police who basically had to setup a cordon to usher the western women out of there rather than remove the guilty parties.

Again, you don't know this for sure. You have no idea what the police said to the victims, or vice versa.

Morlar wrote: »

Whether you like it or not this is related to islamic society treatment of women.

I'm not even going to dignify that with a response.

Sexual harassment is explicitly criminalized in Article 105 of the new Turkish Penal Code. Sexual harassment is defined as “any act of harassment with sexual intent” and penalized with a prison sentence of up to two years.

Morlar

You seem determined to go out of your way to create grounds to downplay the severity of that clip. Like I say if your sister of girlfriend were one of those attacked women I doubt you would be as blase and dismissive.

I am not sure if this is a general thing with you - if you are this particularly generous when it comes to all criminal sexual behaviour or if its something about this particular instance which triggers the outbreak of generosity on your part towards the guilty men.

If I had to guess I would say you are determined to brush information that reflects badly on islamic culture and societies treatment of non veiled women under the carpet.

djpbarry wrote: »

First of all, we are talking about a group of maybe 50 youths, not "hundreds of men".

You say 'youth' I say men - there arent too many youths who are grey haired and stocky imo and there are far more than 50 men involved to varying degrees in that clip.

To pick up your 'point' or claim that they were youths (and therefore by implication somehow less culpable than 'men') I would say age wise its a good range of turkish males, representing a broad spectrum of turkish behaviour and attitude there. Going from approx 17 up to about 50 years old or so.

Funnily enough this would give you a sampling of the turkish male attitudes to women across a broad range of educational and social guidance and experience. It would appear to be a cross generation issue.

Calling them Youths implies foolish 14 yr olds and misadventure and such which is a way of trying to decrease the scale range and severity of the offence. They are 'men' - not youths. 'Males of mixed ages' if you want to be tie this up at an anal pedantic level you seem to be aiming for.

djpbarry wrote: »

Secondly, I posted a link to a story about the spate of rapes and sexual assaults in Ireland over the Christmas and New Year period. Does that mean that rape is part of Irish culture?

Your link has 0% relevance. No one is denying sex crimes exsist in every country on earth. Likewise no one is claiming that rape is a key part of Irish society. If I was denying that then your link may have some relevance - I am not so it doesnt.

The issue here is not that sex crimes are unique to turkey. I never said that they were.

The issue is the endemic (and possibly institutionalised to the level of being a social norm) misogyny in an islamic state which materialises itself (in this instance) in the widespread, unchallenged and repeated public sexual groping of a handful of screaming vulnerable western women - or 'uncovered meat' as at least one mullah would say) by very large numbers of islamic males.

And also the reaction of the police - who instead of confronting the guilty men usher the women /'temptation' out of the way.

Were not talking about the dark ages here - this is in 2008 in an islamic country that imagines its suitable for eu membership.

djpbarry wrote: »

I'm not even going to dignify that with a response.

Pretending there is no islamic cultural or religious aspect to this is not convincing imo. As mentioned before (and ignored by you) you simply do not see behaviour of this kind on this scale in any other predominantly christian european city. It is not in character with the rest of europe - and it certainly would not go unchallenged by the thousands present if this were to happen in dublin, belfast, london or paris or berlin.

'Maybe 50' - wrong - that clip is cut into different segments showing different stages of the attacks and there are far more than 50 men involved imo - this is whether you count the leering crowds waiting outside the shop the women sought refuge in or not.

djpbarry wrote: »

Sexual harassment is explicitly criminalized in Article 105 of the new Turkish Penal Code. Sexual harassment is defined as “any act of harassment with sexual intent” and penalized with a prison sentence of up to two years.

*Except its the victims who were shunted out of the way rather than the guilty being confronted. Proving there is a gap between the letter of the turkish secular law and its literal application in a real life scenario.

GuanYin

Morlar wrote: »

You seem determined to go out of your way to create grounds to downplay the severity of that clip. Like I say if your sister of girlfriend were one of those attacked women I doubt you would be as blase and dismissive.

What you say is blase and dismissive, I see as rationalising and rebutting hyperbole.

I do find it interesting that on one hand I see alot of posts commenting on immigrants in Ireland not respecting our culture and integrating and then you get posts like yours which lambasts a culture when people go there and don't follow their customs.....

Maybe I'm being a little disingenious, but food for thought?

In any case, Turkey has been in the Eurovision song contest for years, UEFA competitions too! Noone complains about that

Moriarty

All posts split out of this thread.

Morlar

psi wrote: »

I do find it interesting that on one hand I see alot of posts commenting on immigrants in Ireland not respecting our culture and integrating and then you get posts like yours which lambasts a culture when people go there and don't follow their customs.....

And the difference is . . . . . . vulnerable, hysterical, isolated screaming islamic women are not repeatedly sexually groped in public by leering hordes of countless irish men for wearing veils and being of a different religon -are they ?

In view of the guards who usher the women away rather than confront the scum responsible ?

If that were the case I would agree with you and it would be unnacceptable. It's not the case though so your wrong to try and make comparisons there.

psi wrote: »

In any case, Turkey has been in the Eurovision song contest for years, UEFA competitions too! Noone complains about that

Like israel you mean ? On that basis israel should join too (stop thinking - the answer is no they should not).

This is not about the eurovision or the uefa - its about the european union and whether turkey is ready for membership. Culturally socially the answer remains no in my view. Btw that link is one example - I seem to remember the problem being so bad that tourist guide books even warned women of the dangers of sexual attacks while visiting turkey - the point is its not a one off.

djpbarry

Morlar wrote: »

You seem determined to go out of your way to create grounds to downplay the severity of that clip.

You seem determined to punish the whole of Turkish society for what you saw in that clip.

Morlar wrote: »

Funnily enough this would give you a sampling of the turkish male attitudes to women across a broad range of educational and social guidance and experience.

I'm not sure how you arrived at that conclusion. The Dublin Riots of February 2006 involved about 300 men/youths of various ages. Did these events give a representative idea of Irish male attitudes toward Unionism? Of course not.

Morlar wrote: »

The issue is the endemic (and possibly institutionalised to the level of being a social norm) misogyny in an islamic state which materialises itself (in this instance) in the widespread, unchallenged and repeated public sexual groping of a handful of screaming vulnerable western women - or 'uncovered meat' as at least one mullah would say) by very large numbers of islamic males.

This is ridiculous. You are basing all this on a (poor quality) video on YouTube.

The reason I posted the link to the article in the Independent was to illustrate the fact that sexual assault is a serious problem in this country and we are in no position to go judging other societies' record on the matter. The Dublin Rape Crisis Centre received over 15,000 (FIFTEEN THOUSAND) calls in 2006 - that's over 40 per day.

Morlar wrote: »

And also the reaction of the police - who instead of confronting the guilty men usher the women /'temptation' out of the way.

Again, you don't know that. You have no idea what the police said or did.

Morlar wrote: »

As mentioned before (and ignored by you) you simply do not see behaviour of this kind on this scale in any other predominantly christian european city.

As I have already pointed out, it is most certainly a serious problem in Dublin.

Morlar wrote: »

*Except its the victims who were shunted out of the way rather than the guilty being confronted. Proving there is a gap between the letter of the turkish secular law and its literal application in a real life scenario.

Nothing has been proven here. First of all, you are assuming the police saw what happened. Secondly, as I have already said, you do not know what the police said to the victims.

GuanYin

Morlar, I think what you're missing is that people are suggesting that the evidence for your rather dramatic labelling of the entire nation are a bit.....hmmmm..... weak.

I mean if I were to make an argument that based on this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ntc0kgshzYk&feature=related

All English people were violent anti-Irish biggots who want to kill us all, I think we may have one or two dissenters....

mike65

...and a mob agreeing!

Mike.

Morlar

psi wrote: »

Morlar, I think what you're missing is that people are suggesting that the evidence for your rather dramatic labelling of the entire nation are a bit.....hmmmm..... weak.

I did not say every single turkish /islamic person there took part. I am saying that large numbers did (OR did not intervene) this was in a 'consequence free' enviornment where their vile behaviour was not challenged in any way whatsoever. There was one exception to this a steward in a dayglo jacket who tried to help - also the police when they eventually arrived escorted the women out of there - though they did not try and arrest any of the scum responsible.

Intolerant treatment of christians/women is not some incredible blip and out of character for turkey. It is entirely in character and it contributes to making them unsuitable for eu membership.

If I wanted to bring up a single isolated (out of character) point I would pick a more extreme one than that - for example the christian bible students being tortured and beheaded last year. If I had done that then you might have a point that an isolated incident cant be used to judge an entire nation.

As mentioned in the previous post you ignored the treatment of women in turkey as highlighted in the clip I linked to is simply not isolated - to pretend it is is ridiculous. Its symptomatic. So much so that (as mentioned) guide books have warned women to be especially wary & with good cause going by that video.

Moriarty

Morlar wrote: »

Intolerant treatment of christians/women is not some incredible blip and out of character for turkey. It is entirely in character ...

..

As mentioned in the previous post you ignored the treatment of women in turkey as highlighted in the clip I linked to is simply not isolated - to pretend it is is ridiculous. Its symptomatic. So much so that (as mentioned) guide books have warned women to be especially wary & with good cause going by that video.

I trust you can back up that position? Otherwise, you're slurring more than 70 million people.

Morlar

Moriarty wrote: »

I trust you can back up that position? Otherwise, you're slurring more than 70 million people.

Are you honestly saying your surprised that treatment of women and christians in turkey is a concern ? Rilly ?

And no - I am not saying every single turkish person falls into the category (of mistreating women or christians). It was after all a turkish person who was disgusted enough to video the link above and put it on youtube. Having said that there is a legitimate widespread concern there as outlined in some of the links below.

Anyway here are a few independent sources (NGO/religious bodies) :
______________
World Organisation Against Torture
http://www.omct.org/pdf/VAW/Publications/2003/Eng_2003_09_Turkey.pdf

Violence against Women in Turkey
A Report to the Committee against Torture

Some of the chapter names :

2.2 Social, Economic and Political Status of Women .....................................
3. Violence Against Women in the Family
3.1 Domestic Violence
3.2 Marital Rape
3.3 Cultural Practices in the Family that Violate the
Human Rights of Women and Girls
3.3.1 Bride Price, Arranged and Forced Marriages and Polygamy
3.3.2 Crimes against Women Committed in the Name of Honour
3.3.3 Virginity Testing
4. Violence in the Community
4.1 Rape and other Forms of Sexual Violence
4.2 Prostitution of and Trafficking in Girls .
5. Violence Perpetrated by the State
5.3 Gender-based Torture and other Forms of Cruel,
Inhuman, or Degrading Treatment
Cases of Violence at the Hands of State Agents
__________________

Amnesty international 2004 :

http://www.amnesty.org/en/report/info/EUR44/013/2004
Turkey: Women confronting family violence


A brief overview :
This report features cases of individual women who have suffered violence at the hands of their family. It outlines a pattern of abuse and discrimination which can start from birth when families barter their newborn daughters and force young girls into early marriage
______________________

Turkey: End sexual violence against women in custody!
http://www.amnesty.org/en/report/info/EUR44/006/2003

The cases in this report illustrate that women in Turkey continue to experience torture and ill-treatment which is gender discriminatory in nature; that is, state agents and other perpetrators target women for sexual violence because of their gender. Although all women are at risk of violence, Amnesty International is concerned that some groups of women may be at particular risk, including those targeted for reasons of their ethnic identity.
______________________

BBC R4
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/womanshour/2004_50_wed_03.shtml
"This week the European Union in Brussels debates whether Turkey should be part of the EU. The treatment of women in Turkey is a key area of concern. "
__________________

This is a less straightforward one - it has one conclusion but then questionable examples :
Canadian Govt report
Turkey: Treatment of Christians since 11 September 2001

http://www.irb-cisr.gc.ca/en/research/rir/?action=record.viewrec&gotorec=444547

Conclusion - no change

one example :
Turkish authorities stopped the construction of a building one month before its completion (Compass Direct 7 May 2002). The building was to be used as the living quarters for a Protestant pastor and his family, as well as a place of worship for a small congregation (ibid.). According to the news report, "the underlying objection voiced to the council [Diyarbakir Council for the Protection of Cultural and Natural Riches] by the governor of Diyarbakir was over the building's intended use for worship by Turkish Christians" (ibid.).

Another example :

Christians are often subject to discriminatory and degrading treatment from fellow soldiers and from superiors during their military service. "They are insulted as 'infidels' or as 'dirty Christian pigs who won't even let themselves be circumcised.' [T]hey are harassed and physically abused. At the same time, they are constantly threatened with forced circumcision..." (31).

There are countless more - I would recommend reading it if you have some time to kill.

____________

http://www.qantara.de - Dialogue with the islammic world

http://www.qantara.de/webcom/show_article.php/_c-478/_nr-454/i.html

Again conclusion - no change - examples are worrying - including :

"A teenager went on trial in the Turkish Black Sea town of Trabzon in mid-May for the murder of the Catholic priest Andrea Santoro. Santoro was shot and killed outside his church in Trabzon on February 5 by an assailant who yelled "Allahu Akbar" – Arabic for "God is great". "
...
"I killed him because he was a missionary", the youth said. Such suspicions of Christians are widespread in Turkey. An irrational fear of Christian missionaries supposedly working to undermine the country, permeates Turkish society "

________________

National Catholic reporter
http://ncronline.org/NCR_Online/archives2/2006d/112406/112406h.php

Report on the pope Benedict's visit to turkey (I believe the first one since the previous pope was almost executed there) and reaction of turks to catholic pope:

"What, if anything, to say about the dire situation facing Turkey’s small Christian communities, such as the forced closure of the seminaries of the patriarchate of Constantinople and the Armenian Orthodox church?"

_________________
Operation world (factbook report on turkey)

http://www.operationworld.org/country/turk/owtext.html

The constitutional guarantee of religious freedom has not been fully upheld; instances of discrimination and harassment of religious minorities are many

djpbarry

Morlar wrote: »

I am not saying every single turkish person falls into the category (of mistreating women or christians).

But you implied that this (sexual abuse of women, physical abuse of Christians) was socially acceptable behaviour in Turkey?

Morlar wrote: »

Having said that there is a legitimate widespread concern there as outlined in some of the links below.

I don't think anyone doubts that human rights abuses have taken place in Turkey, but that does not mean that they are part-and-parcel of everyday life in the country.

It should also be pointed out that human rights reports are compiled for just about every country in the world, including Ireland. The existence of such a report does not implicate that nation's entire population (or even majority) in human rights abuses.

Morlar

djpbarry wrote: »

But you implied that this (sexual abuse of women, physical abuse of Christians) was socially acceptable behaviour in Turkey?

I would repeat that the lack of challenge presented by bystanders against the crowds of muslim males carrying out those sexual assaults is worrying - it is indicative of a level of acceptance (or to be pedantic - tolerance) for that behaviour which is not present in the rest of europe.

As mentioned repeatedly I have never seen behaviour of that sort in any other european capital - ever.

Certainly if I had it would not go unchallenged by other bystanders.

The police also would not be of a mind to take the approach that the turkish police did.

djpbarry wrote: »

I don't think anyone doubts that human rights abuses have taken place in Turkey, but that does not mean that they are part-and-parcel of everyday life in the country.

'Have taken place' is extremely vague language almost to the point of having no meaning. eg Airliners crashing into the world trade centre is an event that has taken place, likewise people spitting chewing gum onto the ground is an incident that also has taken place.

You could argue that if something 'has taken place' that could imply one incident ever or a million.

In general I would be of the opinion that your characterisation iimplies a low or even negligible level, one or two incidents etc.

So I would say that your description and language are innacurate.

'Part and parcel' is possibly unclear also. You could argue (your description remember) that it implies it happens repeatedly to every single christian or woman throughout every single day. Which is obviously not what I meant or implied.

Without getting dragged offtrack into splitting hairs over semantics with you I would go back to saying that its an 'ongoing and significant concern' as outlined in the multiple links I have provided.

silverharp

to judge a people by a one video is complete tosh, I might as well say its just a pity that you tube wasn't about when when the clergy here bu******g kids senseless here up until recently when everyone knew it was going on, I wonder if we should have made it into the EEC

Morlar

silverharp wrote: »

to judge a people by a one video is complete tosh, I might as well say its just a pity that you tube wasn't about when when the clergy here bu******g kids senseless here up until recently when everyone knew it was going on, I wonder if we should have made it into the EEC

What a wierd tangent to try and take the discussion down.

No one is suggesting that anyone would take a single video in absolute isolation. This is simply incorrect (if thats what your implying).

Likewise, its unconvincing to try and suggest that somehow its impossible for a single videotaped incident to crystalise an ongoing significant societal problem.

There is no comparison in terms of the (for want of a better phrase) societal-barometer value of those 2 unrelated incidents.

Sexual abuse of children in the past (whether in Ireland or in turkey) and what happened new years even 2007/8 in istanbul are unrelated.

Drawing comparisons between those 2 events/incidents/problems doesnt stand up to much scrutiny in my view.

Throngs of Irish people did not laugh and cheer priests along as they sexually abused minors - if they did you may have had a point to introduce that kind of sentiment to this discussion. If your trying to draw comparisons you might want to follow them through a bit more. I provided multiple links which verify that treatment of both christians and women is an area of ongoing /significant concern. As also outlined in the video clip I posted a link to.

silverharp

It may be a stretch but I’m just making the point that a lot of societies have negative sides to them, in Ireland the situation for women in Ireland was terrible before the EEC, the EEC speeded up the development of society here, no reason why the same thing wouldn’t happen in Turkey

Morlar

silverharp wrote: »

in Ireland the situation for women in Ireland was terrible before the EEC, the EEC speeded up the development of society here, no reason why the same thing wouldn’t happen in Turkey

The situation of women in pre 1970 ireland is not similair to that of women in turkey in my view.

***There were a reckoned 200 + honour killings of women throughout secular turkey in 2004 - are you really drawing paralells and saying that the role of women in Ireland pre 1970 is in comparable ? I disagree with you on that.

In general western societies the role of women changed drastically throughout the 1960's through the 1970's due to changing liberal values and freedoms that came from contraception - these changes and freedoms continue in western liberal democracies to this day however you have yet to establish a link between these seismic shifts and the eec/eu.

Plus your ignoring the fact that even if these changes were a result of eu membership could it not be possible for them to be rolled back in an eu where the major player by 2015 would be a conservative islamic state which could always introduce sharia law in a year or two down the road ( ie if turkey were to join the eu it would be the major member by demographic estimates - giving an islamic state the power of veto)?

+++++++++
***
(source one of the earlier links you possibly didnt read)
World Organisation Against Torture
http://www.omct.org/pdf/VAW/Publications/2003/Eng_2003_09_Turkey.pdf

3.3.2 Crimes against Women Committed in the Name of Honour
Some of the most serious violations of human rights which specifically
target women are crimes committed in the name of “honour.” “Honour
crimes” are particularly prevalent in, but not limited to, the Eastern and
South-eastern regions of Turkey but they have also been reported in the
major Turkish cities, including Istanbul and Izmir and also in Turkish
immigrant communities in other countries.33 The killing of women and
Violence Against Women: 10 Reports / Year 2003
girls occurs when a woman allegedly steps outside her socially prescribed
role, especially, but not only, with regard to her sexuality and to her interaction
with men outside her family. The killing is usually committed by a
male member of the family, frequently a minor, and the punishment is
typically minimal if any, because Turkish law enforcement authorities
generally condone this practice.
Accurate statistics on the number of “honour crimes” committed in
Turkey do not exist, in part because such crimes are not systematically
prosecuted by the authorities and thus go unreported. Also, police records
in Turkey do not break down homicides into specific types. Nevertheless,
women’s rights groups estimate that at least 200 girls and women are
murdered each year by their families, although they say that the real numbers
may be much greater.34
The practice of “honour killings” and its persistence is a subject of
increasing international concern and has received the attention of United
Nations experts and civil society. The U.N. General Assembly addressed
the issue of “honour crimes” in its resolutions 55/68 and 55/111. In resolution
55/66, the General Assembly expressed deep concern at the persistence
of various forms of violence against women and crimes against
women in all parts of the world, including crimes committed in the name
of “honour,” and reaffirmed that violence against women both violated
and impaired or nullified the enjoyment by women of their human rights
and fundamental freedoms. In resolution 55/111, the General Assembly
called upon governments to investigate promptly and thoroughly crimes
committed in the name of passion or in the name of “honour,” to bring
those responsible to justice before an independent and impartial judiciary,
and to ensure that such killings were neither condoned nor sanctioned by
government officials or personnel. In this context it is worth noting that
Turkey has officially demonstrated its support for the efforts of the United
Nations in eliminating the practice of “honour crimes” by voting in favor
of both General Assembly resolutions.

Sesshoumaru

Careful now Morlar or else the UN will send you a strongly worded letter! You're not allowed criticise Islam

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/viewstory.asp?Page=/ForeignBureaus/archive/200712/INT20071220a.html

silverharp

Morlar wrote: »

The situation of women in pre 1970 ireland is not similair to that of women in turkey in my view.

***There were a reckoned 200 + honour killings of women throughout secular turkey in 2004 - are you really drawing paralells and saying that the role of women in Ireland pre 1970 is in comparable ? I disagree with you on that.

How many 100’s/1000’s of women in Ireland were had their kids taken away from them and were then put in labour camps (Magdaline laundries for eg) for the rest of their lives, just for having a child out of wedlock? All with the families consent

Morlar

silverharp wrote: »

How many 100’s/1000’s of women in Ireland were had their kids taken away from them and were then put in labour camps (Magdaline laundries for eg) for the rest of their lives, just for having a child out of wedlock? All with the families consent

I dont agree with you that there is any similarity between honour killings that in 2003 (correction) were estimated in turkey to run at 200 per anum and what happened years ago in ireland in so called magdalene laundries. There is no comparison - to compare the 2 is absolutely tasteless.

Morlar

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Careful now Morlar or else the UN will send you a strongly worded letter! You're not allowed criticise Islam

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/viewstory.asp?Page=/ForeignBureaus/archive/200712/INT20071220a.html

You also need multiple, various and assorted links to backup anything you might utter that is not totally positive about how caring and cuddly islamic men are.

silverharp

Morlar wrote: »

I dont agree with you that there is any similarity between honour killings that in 2003 (correction) were estimated in turkey to run at 200 per anum and what happened years ago in ireland in so called magdalene laundries. There is no comparison - to compare the 2 is absolutely tasteless.

I don't see why, they are both examples of how religion mixed with poverty and outdated attitudes gives rise to disfunctional behaviour. Surely the best cure for Turkey is to help it modernaise.

Morlar

silverharp wrote: »

I don't see why, they are both examples of how religion mixed with poverty and outdated attitudes gives rise to disfunctional behaviour.

To compare turkey for the estimated honour killing of 200 women in the year 2003, and 1940's magdalene laundries in Ireland is tasteless. If you dont see a difference there you need professional help.

stereo_steve

I dread to think of Turkey in the EU. *shudder*

Morlar, couldn't agree more with you. I don't think the video represents everyone in Turkey but I do think it highlights a mentality that they have.

Before everyone jumps in with their links please. I don't have any. I am just someone who travels alot for work and it is my opinion.

djpbarry

Morlar wrote: »

the lack of challenge presented by bystanders against the crowds of muslim males carrying out those sexual assaults is worrying

Morlar wrote: »

The police also would not be of a mind to take the approach that the turkish police did.

Again, you do not know for sure what happened - you are basing all this on one YouTube video, for which you do not have a source.

Morlar wrote: »

'Have taken place' is extremely vague language almost to the point of having no meaning.

Right; and I'm the one who's being pedantic?

Morlar wrote: »

No one is suggesting that anyone would take a single video in absolute isolation.

But that is precisely what you have been doing. You are using this video as solid evidence that the average Turkish man is a sexual deviant. In fact, you said as much in a previous post.

Morlar wrote: »

There were a reckoned 200 + honour killings of women throughout secular turkey in 2004

No there were not. These killings, along with most of the other human rights abuses in the country, are predominantly confined to the south-east of the country, a region that has become increasing lawless following the US invasion of Iraq.

Morlar wrote: »

In general western societies the role of women changed drastically throughout the 1960's through the 1970's due to changing liberal values and freedoms that came from contraception

Contraception was not legally available in Ireland until the late 80's (1987 I think).

Morlar wrote: »

...could it not be possible for them to be rolled back in an eu where the major player by 2015 would be a conservative islamic state which could always introduce sharia law in a year or two down the road

For the last time, Turkey is not an Islamic state!

Why do you assume that just because the majority of the population is from an Islamic background that they would want the church controlling their lives? The majority of Irish people are from a Catholic background - what are the chances that the influence of the Catholic church will increase in the near future?

Morlar

You take issue with this fact :

There were a reckoned 200 + honour killings of women throughout secular turkey in 2004

And object to this on the basis of the geographic breakdown of instances of honour killings being predominantly in specific areas. On this point you object to the word 'throughout'. This is at the same time as you plead innocence when accused of being pedantic and trying to split hairs.

Mindboggling that a person could read that and see the word 'throughout' as being the problem part.

djpbarry

Morlar wrote: »

Mindboggling that a person could read that and see the word 'throughout' as being the problem part.

It is important to point out that this is a problem associated with a specific region in the country - I don't see what is so "mindboggling" about that.

On the subject of homicide, it should be pointed out that Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia (all EU nations) all have considerably higher homicide rates than Turkey.

Morlar

Latvia, Lithuania and estonia do not have a culture where islamic so-called 'honour' killings (including stonings) run at a conservative estimate (as of 200300) of a figure of 200+.pa (such as that which exsists throughout so-called secular turkey).

paulizei

Morlar wrote: »

I think this video from 2 nights ago illustrates graphically just how ready 'the lovely muslim men' of turkey are to join europe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjYYuj0Bz5o

IHT wrote:

Berlin: Dozens of young Germans attacked a group of Indian visitors to a village in the eastern state of Saxony over the weekend, chasing them through the streets and smashing up the restaurant where the Indians had taken refuge, the local police confirmed Monday.


The incident, which took place Saturday in Mügeln, about 45 kilometers, or 28 miles, east of Leipzig, was witnessed by a large crowd, which apparently did not take any action to stop the attack against the eight Indians. The Saxony police did not release news of the attack until late Sunday. "We are not ruling out a xenophobic motive," said the police chief of Saxony, Bernd Merbitz.

There are frequent violent attacks on non white people by neo nazis in Germany. Boot Germany out of the EU?

Morlar wrote: »

I believe it does. I have never seen crowds of literally hundreds of men collectively repeatedly groping and pawing a handful of seriously distressed (ie screaming) women on the street in say dublin, london or paris or berlin etc - have you ?

There are about 130000 Turks in Berlin btw.

What about that place where children on the way to school had to be protected by the police from a violent abusive sectarian mob. Ireland I think it was called.

Sesshoumaru

paulizei wrote: »

There are about 130000 Turks in Berlin btw.

Speaking of Berlin.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,344374,00.html

The Turkish women's organization Papatya has documented 40 instances of honor killings in Germany since 1996. Examples include a Darmstadt girl whose two brothers pummelled her to death with a hockey stick in April 2004 after they learned she had slept with her boyfriend. In Augsburg in April, a man stabbed his wife and 7-year-old daughter because the wife was having an affair. In December 2003, a Tuebingen father strangled his 16-year-old daughter and threw her body into a lake because she had a boyfriend. Bullets, knives, even axes and gasoline are the weapons of choice. The crime list compiled by Papatya is an exercise in horror. And the sad part, said Boehmecke, is that it is far from complete. "We'll never really know how many victims there are. Too often these crimes go unreported."

I can't imagine it had anything to do with Islamic ideology. It's the ebil western people and their corrupt ways. If only they let these people live in their own little mini islamic states and stopped trying to get them to do ridiculous things like integrate!!

djpbarry

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

I can't imagine it had anything to do with Islamic ideology.

It didn't. Muslim leaders in Berlin have stressed that there is no basis for honour killings in the Qur'an. 45 known cases of honour killings occurred in Germany from 1996 to 2004. To suggest that this practice is endorsed by all (or even the majority of) 3.5 million Muslims in the country is simply ridiculous.

djpbarry

Morlar wrote: »

Latvia, Lithuania and estonia do not have a culture where islamic so-called 'honour' killings (including stonings) run at a conservative estimate (as of 200300) of a figure of 200+.pa

So the large number of murders that occur in the Baltic states are somehow more acceptable to you for this reason?

Sesshoumaru

djpbarry wrote: »

It didn't. Muslim leaders in Berlin have stressed that there is no basis for honour killings in the Qur'an. 45 known cases of honour killings occurred in Germany from 1996 to 2004. To suggest that this practice is endorsed by all (or even the majority of) 3.5 million Muslims in the country is simply ridiculous.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/02/0212_020212_honorkilling_2.html

There is nothing in the Koran, the book of basic Islamic teachings, that permits or sanctions honor killings. However, the view of women as property with no rights of their own is deeply rooted in Islamic culture, Tahira Shahid Khan, a professor specializing in women's issues at the Aga Khan University in Pakistan, wrote in Chained to Custom, a review of honor killings published in 1999.

"Women are considered the property of the males in their family irrespective of their class, ethnic, or religious group. The owner of the property has the right to decide its fate. The concept of ownership has turned women into a commodity which can be exchanged, bought and sold."

Honor killings are perpetrated for a wide range of offenses. Marital infidelity, pre-marital sex, flirting, or even failing to serve a meal on time can all be perceived as impugning the family honor.

I would have to agree with professor Tahira Shahid Khan. Just because the Koran doesn't directly say you should kill women who "dishonour" the family, doesn't mean it doesn't provide the average muslim reader with enough pieces of information to come to that conclusion themselves.

djpbarry

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Just because the Koran doesn't directly say you should kill women who "dishonour" the family, doesn't mean it doesn't provide the average muslim reader with enough pieces of information to come to that conclusion themselves.

That sort of logic could also be applied to the Bible, given it's less-than egalitarian content, particularly in the Old Testament.

I would hardly say the "average" Muslim condones honour killings. We are talking about an extremist minority of Taliban-esque wackos.

Sesshoumaru

djpbarry wrote: »

That sort of logic could also be applied to the Bible, given it's less-than egalitarian content, particularly in the Old Testament.

As an atheist I'm not going to defend the bible. Any person who says they believe in any of that stuff, I take as seriously as someone telling me they believe in Noddy.

Anyway I thought Europe had a post Christian secular society? Bringing up the bible only distracts us from discussing Islam. Which if you want to compare holy books far outclasses the bible in terms of containing crap you wouldn't want innocent children reading. How many Christian/post Christian countries can you be sentenced to death in by stoning?

djpbarry wrote: »

I would hardly say the "average" Muslim condones honour killings. We are talking about an extremist minority of Taliban-esque wackos.

But what are they taking to an extreme? If following what's written in the Koran to the letter is extremist then yes you could call them that. But since Muslims claim god came down into the dessert and spoke directly into mo's ear, then we have a problem. Since from their perspective there is nothing extreme in following the word of god.

Islam today is the same as Islam in the 7th century. How can it change when its adherents passionately believe mo & god spoke directly. If god came down and told us how he wants us to live already, how can you argue with that? or change it? The koran is for all mankind and for all time apparently.

Morlar

On the subject of honour killings:

Originally Posted by Sesshoumaru View Post
I can't imagine it had anything to do with Islamic ideology.

djpbarry wrote: »

It didn't.

This is insane - you will say anything to avoid dealing with the myriad of legitimate reasons why turkey is unsuitable to be in the eu.

djpbarry

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

But what are they taking to an extreme? If following what's written in the Koran to the letter is extremist then yes you could call them that.

There are plenty of people in the world (admittedly, most are in the US) who take the Bible literally, often with violent consequences. The point I'm trying to make is that most people of a religious disposition, whether they be Muslim, Christian or otherwise, use a little bit of common sense when interpreting these writings.

Morlar wrote: »

This is insane - you will say anything to avoid dealing with the myriad of legitimate reasons why turkey is unsuitable to be in the eu.

What exactly am I avoiding? The main issue you have raised in this thread is the practice of honour killings in Turkey. I countered this with the fact that the murder rate in Turkey is substantially lower than some current EU member states. You responded by apparently saying that this was ok, because they don't (as far as you know) do honour killings. I fail to see the logic in that - murder is murder. Irrespective of the motive, the end result is the same.

Morlar

djpbarry wrote: »

What exactly am I avoiding?

I would say you have consistently split hairs throughout this thread as a way of diverting any discussion of turkey that is not positive.

You have sought to minimise any issue by pedantic means - arguing over the most minor detail as if it changed the gravity of the problems, changing language to 'youths' from men etc etc. This is pretty transparent imo.

Re your introduction of the wider subject 'homicide' in europe - were not talking about the wider more general problems that turkey has that everyone else has too like car theft, or murder in general.

Were talking about the problems that turkey has that are unique to turkey in the context of european membership. And before you make the point Germany has honour killings too - the fact is german people dont commit honour killings of their womenfolk,- its a specifically islamic practice and in this case the majority are likely to be commited by turks oddly enough (as they are a large population in germany).

Honour killings and its general mistreatment of christians and women (as mentioned in multiple links) would be among the issues here. Some of the others of (attacking north iraq, denying the genocide of 1 milllion armenian (christians btw), cyprus etc) course are covered in the other thread.

AngryHippie

To be Honest,
I still don't think that the largest obstacles to their entry are social, or religious or cultural.
History, Geogrpahy and Economics would all suggest that Turkish accession is a disasterous concept, the rest of the arguements while valid and rational are not the largest issues here, just the most emotional ones

Morlar

AngryHippie wrote: »

To be Honest,
I still don't think that the largest obstacles to their entry are social, or religious or cultural.
History, Geogrpahy and Economics would all suggest that Turkish accession is a disasterous concept, the rest of the arguements while valid and rational are not the largest issues here, just the most emotional ones

I think you may have a point there - about how there is a wider context to all this and more wide-ranging issues than the specific ones in this thread. The ones here could be called the 'most emotional' - I suppose - the reason they stood out to me is that they are the most obviously socially un-acceptable to most people & myself included (mistreatment of christians, mistreatment of non islamic women, and mistreatment of islamic women culminating in the most extreme examples of honour killings).

djpbarry

Morlar wrote: »

were not talking about the wider more general problems that turkey has that everyone else has too like car theft, or murder in general.

You're putting murder in the same bracket as car theft?

I do not see why a high murder rate should be dismissed as a "more general problem"? Surely if a nation has a murder rate comparable to, or even higher than, the rate in the US, this represents a severe, sociological problem?

Morlar wrote: »

Were talking about the problems that turkey has that are unique to turkey in the context of european membership.

But virtually every nation has its own unique problems. For example, Germany still has problems with neo-nazi thugs:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2591615.stm

Morlar wrote: »

Honour killings and its general mistreatment of christians and women (as mentioned in multiple links) would be among the issues here.

Both of which I have acknowledged as being serious issues. The problem I have is that you seem to believe that the murder of Christians and/or women is acceptable to most Turks. You also seem to be of the belief that almost every Muslim male is a potential killer. This sort of thinking is not conducive to rational debate.

AngryHippie wrote: »

History, Geogrpahy and Economics would all suggest that Turkish accession is a disasterous concept

While I can understand that having an EU border with Iraq is a risky business, surely there are potential economic benefits to Turkish accession?

Morlar

djpbarry wrote: »

You're putting murder in the same bracket as car theft?

No. Your just dis-ingenously claiming that I am.

What happened here is that the subject of honour killings in turkey came up - to counter this you then said this is no different from the prevalent murder rate in other non islamic countries.

I said that it is an issue which is unique to turkey (in the context of this discussion) and its islamic nature. You then said that there was no connection between islam and honour killings.

The point was made that the discussion is about problems which are specific to turkey - not the common problems that turkey has that everyone else has also (which would include car crime and other general crime).

djpbarry wrote: »

I do not see why a high murder rate should be dismissed as a "more general problem"? Surely if a nation has a murder rate comparable to, or even higher than, the rate in the US, this represents a severe, sociological problem?

We are talking about problems here which are specific to turkey and its islamic nature as a country which aspires to being a member of the eu - one that has for example 200+ honour killings per year. If you dont see a difference between honour killings of women and more general crimes then we are not going to agree on that.

(Honour killings and its general mistreatment of christians and women)

djpbarry wrote: »

Both of which I have acknowledged as being serious issues.

It would be a bit tricky not to.

Creagh Caper

djp please dont use the bbc as a reference to anything. they cannot be trusted to report the news fairly and correctly. they are the most left leaning organisation out there who have been caught lieing on several occasions to follow their own political agenda (orla guerin in Palestine anyone?).

http://www.biased-bbc.blogspot.com/

djpbarry

Morlar wrote: »

You then said that there was no connection between islam and honour killings.

I did not say there was no connection. I said, in response to another post, that honour killings are not an Islamic ideal.

Morlar wrote: »

We are talking about problems here which are specific to turkey and its islamic nature as a country which aspires to being a member of the eu - one that has for example 200+ honour killings per year. If you dont see a difference between honour killings of women and more general crimes then we are not going to agree on that.

That would depend on what you consider to be a "general" crime. For me, murder, irrespective of the motive, is a deplorable act. Some may argue that there is a big difference between stoning a woman to death and shooting a man in the head, but personally, I don't think so – a certain psychotic disposition is required to commit either act. It is for this reason that I compared the murder rate in Turkey with that in EU member states (Turkey also has a lower murder rate than the US, but then, so does just about every other country in the world!)

You have stressed that honour killings are a problem that are unique to Turkey in the context of accession to the EU. While this may be true, Turkey is not alone in having its own unique problems. For example, sectarian violence was a major problem in the UK and Ireland when we joined the EU - should we have been refused membership based on our human rights record at the time?