more judo in MMA

Nothingcompares

Jung Bu-Kyung from Korea, Sydney Olympic Silver Medalist made his MMA début at a moments notice against Shinya Aoki (then 11-2) at Yarennoka in Japan on New Year's Eve. It was the tough Judoka that came closest to submission with 2 very good arm bar attempts but the more experienced Aoki got the better of him in the GNP, especially the last 2 minutes (it was brutal tbh), to win a decision. I don't think any other single martial art could give you the base to make 6 months MMA preparation with a few weeks fight preparation to fight one of the toughest professionals in the sport to a close decision.

dlofnep

He really impressed me.. Nearly caught Aoki a few times and Aoki is a ground wizard.

Judo for life!

Nothingcompares

Makoto TAkimoto beat Murillo Bustamante by a close decision, another Judo underdog. gg judo.

mickoo

Nothingcompares wrote: »

I don't think any other single martial art could give you the base to make 6 months MMA preparation with a few weeks fight preparation to fight one of the toughest professionals in the sport to a close decision.

BJJ will and more so than judo.

Nothingcompares

you make a very convincing argument I have to agree with you.

dlofnep

Kratty is the best.

filament

judo has proved to be pretty effective in MMA, i think the two biggest reasons that wrestling styles are more prominent are:

not all jodokah <i know that's wrong but im tired> train sans gi and so the system is not always readily transposed, this is changing though

wrestlers tend to be in phenomonal shape with hours of grappling and extreme conditioning, look at MMA and the most physically gifted are always wrestlers

here's hoping judo continues to grow in the sport

Fozzy

Bu-Kyung did really well alright. Judo couldn't save Sokoudjou the other night though

spiral

in fairness isnt aoki a judo blackbelt as well ?

Dragan

Fozzy wrote: »

Bu-Kyung did really well alright. Judo couldn't save Sokoudjou the other night though

Not a lot was gonna save Sokou....he was always going to be outclassed in that fight.

judomick

sokou had the typical Judo club blackbelt ground game i.e quite bad off his back, especially against someone with Machidas ground game, whereas byung (spelling) has imo definately trained Bjj or at least worked alot on his newaza, i think there is also A HUGE difference in the skill of both one is a south Korean olympic medallist the other from cameroon theres a big difference in national levels there

soma

filament wrote: »

not all jodokah <i know that's wrong but im tired> train sans gi and so the system is not always readily transposed, this is changing though

Is there anywhere in Ireland where Judoka would regularly/semi-regularly train in a no-gi environment, other than the SBG clubs..? I remember seeing some Karo Parisyan no-gi stuff that was really interesting.

FiannaGym.com

This thread should be titled: Athlete trains MMA and does well!

Clive

filament wrote: »

wrestlers tend to be in phenomonal shape with hours of grappling and extreme conditioning, look at MMA and the most physically gifted are always wrestlers

Georges St. Pierre is a kratty man, so was Daniel Larusso.

Roper

soma wrote: »

Is there anywhere in Ireland where Judoka would regularly/semi-regularly train in a no-gi environment, other than the SBG clubs..? I remember seeing some Karo Parisyan no-gi stuff that was really interesting.

Think Dave Jones of Next Generation posted that up.

I know you said "other than" but really the best place for Judo/BJJ is SBGn theres a lot of experienced Judoka there training in BJJ too. Even if you never do a pure judo class there you'll pick up a lot of stuff doing BJJ with the guys who do.

Nothingcompares

soma wrote: »

Is there anywhere in Ireland where Judoka would regularly/semi-regularly train in a no-gi environment, other than the SBG clubs..? I remember seeing some Karo Parisyan no-gi stuff that was really interesting.

In a word, No.

Sokojudo vs Hueston Alexander next please!

I think some of the things that contributed to Jung Bu-Kyung making such smooth transition to professional MMA at its highest level are that:

-He competed in large Judo tournaments in front of large crowds - less nerves than a typical débutante.
-Training for Olympics made him tough, physically and mentally (he would be capable of doing the necessary training to get in shape to fight)
-Judo gave him great clinch and good ground

I think if he had a background in just boxing, BJJ, wrestling, track and field he wouldn't have had the same experiences.

filament

Roper wrote: »

Think Dave Jones of Next Generation posted that up.

I know you said "other than" but really the best place for Judo/BJJ is SBGn theres a lot of experienced Judoka there training in BJJ too. Even if you never do a pure judo class there you'll pick up a lot of stuff doing BJJ with the guys who do.

what he said

arybvtcw0eolkf

soma wrote: »

Is there anywhere in Ireland where Judoka would regularly/semi-regularly train in a no-gi environment, other than the SBG clubs..? I remember seeing some Karo Parisyan no-gi stuff that was really interesting.

I really don't think so.

I take the view that Judo or BJJ without the Gi is sub-wrestling/grappling and not Judo or BJJ.

cowzerp

Mairt wrote: »

I take the view that Judo or BJJ without the Gi is sub-wrestling/grappling and not Judo or BJJ.

Agreed 100%

Nothingcompares

It doesn't really matter what you call it. But that's like saying stand up in the gi = judo and ground fighting = bjj. You go to portmarnock and the lads for the craic take their jackets off and start wrestling in their tshirts they're still doing judo, they'll still try and do judo throws just they'll try and compensate for a lack of a gi.

filament

Mairt wrote: »

I really don't think so.

I take the view that Judo or BJJ without the Gi is sub-wrestling/grappling and not Judo or BJJ.

well that's just semantics

dlofnep

We getting pedantic about semantics up in hurrr!

filament

dlofnep wrote: »

We getting pedantic about semantics up in hurrr!

i actually laughed out loud

arybvtcw0eolkf

Nothingcompares wrote: »

It doesn't really matter what you call it. But that's like saying stand up in the gi = judo and ground fighting = bjj. You go to portmarnock and the lads for the craic take their jackets off and start wrestling in their tshirts they're still doing judo, they'll still try and do judo throws just they'll try and compensate for a lack of a gi.

Doesn't matter, without the full suit its not training 'judo'.

Even though they try do Judo throws doesn't make it Judo.

Year's ago some kickboxing associations had hip throws and foot sweeps which counted as a score but they weren't doing Judo just because they used some Judo techniques.

But either way its hardly something worth beating to death. Six of one, half dozen of the other depending on your view's.

judomick

Mairt wrote: »

Even though they try do Judo throws doesn't make it Judo.

for the sake of the argument if kosei inoue was walking along a beach and someone attacked him,(balbriggan) he threw them etc, would that not be Judo?

arybvtcw0eolkf

judomick wrote: »

for the sake of the argument if kosei inoue was walking along a beach and someone attacked him,(balbriggan) he threw them etc, would that not be Judo?

Nope, only if it happened on a beach in Japan

But if an Irishman hit someone over the head with a stick on a beach in Japan would it be shillelagh fighting or Kendo?.

spiral

what about if Mike Tyson is punching someone out side a night club in a judo suit with no gloves on.
Is that boxing or Judo ?
Isnt there atemi in Judo

Nothingcompares

What happens if I forget my gi bottoms and wear shorts and a gi jacket in training. Am I doing Sambo all of a sudden?

arybvtcw0eolkf

Nothingcompares wrote: »

What happens if I forget my gi bottoms and wear shorts and a gi jacket in training. Am I doing Sambo all of a sudden?

Will you wearing boots and cursing in Russian?.

FiannaGym.com

judomick wrote: »

for the sake of the argument if kosei inoue was walking along a beach and someone attacked him,(balbriggan) he threw them etc, would that not be Judo?

Haha I laughed my ass off at this! Totally implausable situation that I wasnt going to take seriously until "(balbriggan)" then I knew Judo or not this was a fight to the death!

Peace

cowzerp

I genuinely agree with martin on this, judo is all about grabbing the gi and doing your throws, throws without the gi are totally different than with a gi on-yes they are judo techniques but have to be changed into something else!

punches in boxing dont change if you take your gloves off, the whole dynamics of bjj or judo change without the gi and thats why no gi should be trained for mma competition, gi on is fine too but not always.

Only karo parysian uses throws with great effect in MMA, plenty of judoka style fighters throw in mma but not to judo standard because the lack of a gi or clothing that could be used like a gi..

Roper

cowzerp wrote: »

I genuinely agree with martin on this, judo is all about grabbing the gi and doing your throws, throws without the gi are totally different than with a gi on-yes they are judo techniques but have to be changed into something else!

punches in boxing dont change if you take your gloves off, the whole dynamics of bjj or judo change without the gi and thats why no gi should be trained for mma competition, gi on is fine too but not always.

Disagree.

Punches in boxing don't change when the gloves come off, but for MMA your stance does. Same with Judo/BJJ. The best BJJ players are pretty much the best sub-wrestlers right now. ADCC has been won for the last 2 years by proponents of the Gi.

Just because you take your jacket off and have to adapt doesn't mean you're suddenly doing something different. Everybody has to adapt.

cowzerp

Roper wrote: »

Disagree.

Punches in boxing don't change when the gloves come off, but for MMA your stance does..

Thats funny because when i watched the ufc the other day just about all the fighters stood in more of a boxing stance than any other type of stance, This stance thing is a nonsense and a myth, The other thing is i was not talking about MMA and just commenting on judo gi or no gi. I've trained judo and could not do the throws without a gi on, mma takedowns are totally different and more like wrestling takedowns in most cases. I dont know what your disagreeing with.

Roper

cowzerp wrote: »

Thats funny because when i watched the ufc the other day just about all the fighters stood in more of a boxing stance than any other type of stance, This stance thing is a nonsense and a myth,

I would call it an MMA stance. It might look more like boxing than anything to you but to others it might look more like thai, like a wreslters stance etc. etc. The fact is it has to be changed, as do most stances.

The other thing is i was not talking about MMA and just commenting on judo gi or no gi. I've trained judo and could not do the throws without a gi on, mma takedowns are totally different and more like wrestling takedowns in most cases.

If you train wrestling, you'll do wrestling takedowns. If you train judo you'll do judo takedowns. If you watch an experienced judoka in MMA he'll use judo.

Not trying to be funny but I've trained judo as well, and couldn't do the throws without a gi... or with the gi, but that's neither here nor there.:D But there's a difference between you and I having trained judo a bit, and being an actual judoka. Just off the top of my head Gary Bergin at the last CoT got a sweet throw on his opponent. If I tried the same thing I'd probably land on my head because I'm not a judoka.

I think naming things is good for sporting divisions. Sub Wrasslin is in shorts, BJJ is in a Gi and so on. But its all horses for courses and the differences are less significant than the similarities.

cowzerp

cowzerp wrote: »

Thats funny because when i watched the ufc the other day just about all the fighters stood in more of a boxing stance than any other type of stance, This stance thing is a nonsense and a myth

I disagree. The stance has to take into consideration punching, kicking, kneeing and elbowing for starters, it also has to take into account takedowns and takedown defence. So it cannot be as squared as the Muay-Thai stance as the hips will be too flat and thus you are easily taken down and/or shotting for a takedown is awkward.

It also cannot be like the boxing stance of off to the side as you would be effectively handing your opponent a single leg takedown. So what it is is somewhere in the middle where you are off at about a 45 degree angle so that you can sprawl/shoot and strike all without weakening the other elements. (ie if u stand in a squared stance then your kicks will be better than at the "MMA stance" but your takedowns/takedown defence will be weakened, so the "MMA stance" has everything as strong as it can be without weakening the other areas.)

cowzerp

Roper wrote: »

I would call it an MMA stance. It might look more like boxing than anything to you but to others it might look more like thai, like a wreslters stance etc. etc. The fact is it has to be changed, as do most stances.

I Know a boxing stance and i'll tell you its what your calling an mma stance!
muay thai stance is feet pointing at 11 on left and 5 o clock on right and on the ball of your toe's if im not mistaken, this is certainly not an mma stance,

maybe people are going to start realising this myth about the boxing stance! the best mma fighters in the world have been using it of late and using its obvious benefits-footwork speed and punch power.

Not picking an argument but the amount of people who told me to change my stance when there just blind to what is on the ufc shows all the time.

if it is used in wrestling or any other sport i'd say great because the benefits are brilliant for sports such as wrestling and mma in my opinion.

judomick

im not commenting on boxing , from my point of view if a top level judoka got into a street fight the techniques he would use would be Judo, with some added punching etc, of course its still Judo, not to the standard the IJF rules state i.e a blue or white gi, arm length of gi etc, but its judo, there are quite a few judo throws that dont utilise the jacket, and anytime your in a streetfight etc most of the time people will be wearing clothes! so whats the difference between a leather jacket and a gi jacket regarding grips? if i armlock someone on the ground its still a judo technique if i throw someone with ogoshi its a judo technique therefore it should be called judo, when James bond used tomoe nage in a movie, anyone with a bit of knowledge wouldnt say he fell back and kicked the guy in the air, they would say he did a tomoe nage or a judo throw,

same if a thai boxer beat someone up outside of a ring its still thai boxing

filament

cowzerp wrote: »

I Know a boxing stance and i'll tell you its what your calling an mma stance!
muay thai stance is feet pointing at 11 on left and 5 o clock on right and on the ball of your toe's if im not mistaken, this is certainly not an mma stance,

maybe people are going to start realising this myth about the boxing stance! the best mma fighters in the world have been using it of late and using its obvious benefits-footwork speed and punch power.

Not picking an argument but the amount of people who told me to change my stance when there just blind to what is on the ufc shows all the time.

if it is used in wrestling or any other sport i'd say great because the benefits are brilliant for sports such as wrestling and mma in my opinion.

just to clarify, there are several boxing stances depending on the style of fighter whether it be the high low guard of bernard dunne or the cocky arms by the waist of naseem hammed

when i started mma training i had to change my stance somewhat to the traditional inside boxing stance <peek a boo as it's often called in america> with the hands up high and close and the chin buried deep and i also found that the legs needed to be closer and less "forward"

arybvtcw0eolkf

filament wrote: »

well that's just semantics

Thats as maybe, but I've never seen a Judo or BJJ comp done without the Gi.

But yea, if we're talking casually I take it that a Judoka using Judo techques in a no Gi comp or training session then its Judo.

Just as a BJJ fighter who throw's or submits in the same comp or training session is using BJJ.

filament

Mairt wrote: »

Thats as maybe, but I've never seen a Judo or BJJ comp done without the Gi.

But yea, if we're talking casually I take it that a Judoka using Judo techques in a no Gi comp or training session then its Judo.

Just as a BJJ fighter who throw's or submits in the same comp or training session is using BJJ.

well what's happened here is that you're defining the sign: judo by the signifier of judo based competition whereas those disagreeing define judo as the set of throws and moves irrespective of modification for attire

Clive

Just to muddy the waters, BJJ now has a "no gi" World Championships.

Nothingcompares

Nothingcompares wrote: »

Jung Bu-Kyung from Korea, Sydney Olympic Silver Medalist made his MMA début at a moments notice against Shinya Aoki (then 11-2)

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=8I4bVSP2ReM&NR=1

john kavanagh

i thought that Jung Bu-Kyung ground was superior to aoki's, obviously trains a lot on the ground. will be interesting to follow his progress.

but i thought that bustamante was unlucky not to get the nod or at least a draw. he completely dominated every range for the first 10mins. his opponent had one good punch followed by good flurry in rd.2.....busta quickly regained composure and finished fight in dominant position.

i always enjoy watchin high level judo in mma...once it goes to a clinch you know someone's going to be in the air any second.

filament

Clive wrote: »

Just to muddy the waters, BJJ now has a "no gi" World Championships.

thanks for that