450SL or P1800?

--amadeus--

Hello!

The Jag has gone on to a better place and a new baby needs to be birthed...!

I'm thinking about either a 1976 Merc 450SL at c.£6K or a Volvo P1800 at c.£5K. Both seem in good condition from the photos, both RHD.

Any advice or thoughts? Anyone own something like that? How are they as daily drivers? What woud value be over here if re-rg'd and will they be easy to sell on? Also have a left-field W111 220SE Coupe at almost €11K but it's a LHD and not sure of the condition inside..

Thoughts and thinks?

Thanks!

mike65

Don't ever buy a classic thinking "will it be easy to sell on?" a classic is not for Xmas its for life. Value or cost? A 5 grand sterling car imported to Ireland would cost you "about" 8.5K euro when the VRT and transport is paid.

Is the SL a coupe or soft-top? If its the latter 6 grand is proberbly dangerously cheap.

BTW I could'nt find that model of the VRT Calulator and the nearest came back as "€0" tax due! The P1800 is'nt on it either and nor is there any model listed remotely close to
it.

Mike.

--amadeus--

Whichever I get will be the 4th that I have brought in and +/- €8k - 10K was always the budget. The Jag just sold was a 1964 Mk II which I used as a daily driver and the "new" car will be the same. I know what you mean about a classic being for life but the last 2 lasted 6 months each before I moved them on - buying and selling them is a bit of a hobby

The SL is convertable with the removable hard top. The VRT should be €50 as long as I get it in before the rules change (I'm going to give them a tinkle about that).

Having had three in a row that had poor heating I'm thinking that the Merc would have a lot of the creature comforts that modern drivers take for granted - I know it has functioning e/windows and central locking for example. But the Volvo looks waaay nicer!

mike65

I of course forgot VRT doesn't apply to pre 1978 cars (btw the rules have not changed for classics)

The Volvo had poor heating? Thats a surprise.

Mike.

junkyard

The Volvos have major rust problems too.

mountain

Hi Amadeus,

At present im driving a 1800, Its a beautiful looking car, drives well for its age, easy to work on. Just a 2 seater really, as the back seats are for small children only.
pm me and i will give you whatever info i can.

PaulK_CCI

The 2 cars are miles apart as to what they're offering. The SL is 'soft' comfortable tourer/cruiser convertible for summer use that has a solid hardtop, effectively making it a good coupe in the winter time. The Volvo is sporty-ish 2+2, sitting very low, twin carb engine, but still giving loads of satisfaction driving it. Very convenient electric overdrive for relaxed longer distance cruising. One of the nicest dashboards ever made in my opinion (although usually half the gauges tend to not work any more !!!:D).

6k sterling is indeed dangerously cheap for an SL, as a good tax exempt RHD example would tend to go for around 14-18k euro's at least, with minters topping that... Problem is, these SL's hide their problems very (!!!) well, both bodywise AND engine/mechanics. Repairs can be very expensive, so you'd better be extremely careful.
For my money, I'd go for the P1800. They're much cheaper to run, maintain and drive... As to resale value, the p1800 might be a bit more difficult to shift than a Merc SL though...

--amadeus--

Thanks for teh advice and help, it is much appreciated! I was leaning towards the Merc but the Volvo vendors aren't answering mails so my mind may have been made up for me!

The SL is good value. It's a private sale, which always helps, but it's a 76 which means that it is not (AFAIK) tax exempt in the UK which means our tax laws are (for once) working for me! It has had a lot of expensive work done - the rear subframe mountings, the rear springs and shock absorbers, rear silencer box and some other bits and pieces. It's also an owners club car which is another good sign.

Any advice on what I should look for on the inspection trip?

Dades

The heater in the SLs should keep you toasty. In fact you'll need the roof down in the summer as it gets too toasty. That said, check it works!

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Any advice on what I should look for on the inspection trip?

Mercmad gave me some great advice on buying mine last year so maybe PM him.

If you want PM me the link too, and I'll see if there's any advice I can offer.

8~)

SL will have creature comforts, including heat.
What to look for.... rust.
Rust in the front wings, in the bulkhead area, where the kickdown switch comes through and also in the seams (hard to spot because of the heavy underseal, rust in the sills - there are drain holes in the sills just under where the door meets the front wing - they block and the sill rots out and can rot the floor also. Rust along the length of the sill, including drain hole to the rear, rust in the rear arches, under the rear deck/seat area, rust in the rear sill area, rust in the corners of the boot floor where it meets the rear arches, rust where the rear bumpstops are (or should be - they've probably rusted off).

And door and window seals - they age and are expensive to replace. If left, they let water in... so look for rust in the doors also, around the door bottoms and hinges.

Mechanically, generally, they go forever if maintained.

Don't want to be offputting, but the fact is that these cars are now old and can hide the rust so well that some owners are genuinely unaware of the extent.

--amadeus--

Are they not galvanised?

Are they practical for 2 small (4 & 6) kids on short runs??

3ps

i was thinking of getting an SL/SLC last year and I wouldn't have touched an SL at 6kGBP TBH! Perhaps the person selling doesn't know it's value but I doubt it.

I'd go for the Volvo for it's rarity on the roads here. You can always sell it back into the UK afterwards.

--amadeus--

I didn't think that 6K STG was so low for an SL - I have seen a great number for less than that and £6k seemed about average, though there are obviously cars for a lot more than that out there. How much do you think should be spent and what are they worth over here?

Thanks again for all teh help!

8~)

No, the SLs are not galvanized. The fact they've so many 'rust areas' is only because they are so well built they survive the 30 odd years to have time to rust (does that make sense???)

They are not known rusters as such, but like other Mercedes of the era they have amazingly strong rubbery underseal that can hide the rust very well. By the time the rust makes itself known it's had lots of time to spread.

Note not all SLs have a back seat. Where there is a back seat it is probably OK for short trips for children but I reckon room is pretty limited.

If you want more rear room and don't mind a hard top, buy the SLC (which is what I have). They are generally cheaper than the SL also and to my eye at least, better looking.

They are as comfortable as any modern car and feel very surefooted, strong and safe.

I think the asking price is middle of the road for an average car, but like all old cars each should be judged individually.

I can't comment on the Volvo, but wouldn't turn one of them down. As stated already, the two cars are very different. You need to try an example of each to decide what you prefer.

Dades

I think kids of 2 & 6 would be fine for short runs. I have carried large adults on numerous short trips. Any shortage of space in the back will be forgotten once the roof comes off...

Check to see if there are rear belts installed - and in fact that seats are installed instead of a parcel shelf!

I have a mate with a Volvo P1800, and though they look cooler, on any trip you'll either be putting the kids on the roofrack - or taking the MPV instead.

--amadeus--

Hmmmm, this is trickier than I thought..! Mrs A (while doing the whole "it's your car, you decide" thing) is 100% against the Merc. She hates the styling, thinks it's bland and not "classic" enough. Not good news...

What is good news though is that we had another look at the budget because of this, upped it by a little and now a Lotus Elan +2 is in range. It's more than I wanted to spend but a much nicer car and much more what I was looking for...

*sigh* decisions, decisions!

MercMan Ben

Hi guys,

if you are thinking of buying the SL - I can only recommend to check the car very thoroughly yourself (if you know your stuff) or let it be checked by a professional. Especially the early W107 have major rust problems, some around the rear axle that make the car very week and unsafe to drive. These areas are sometimes hidden and might be covered by bodyschulz to fool a prospective buyer. The engine should run very smooth cold and hot and shouldn't have any shudders etc. Parts for the D-Jetronic Fuel Injection System are very expensive. The heavy engine is also very hard wearing on the front axle rubbermounts. They should be checked. Check the heating, as parts of it are pneumatically controlled and if there is a leak in the vacuum system in can be trouble. Check all flaps as well, as the 107 had a design fault in the heating regulating flaps, which can cause them to stick and jam (a repair involves stripping the whole dash - very time consuming)
The seats in the rear are a joke - it is only possible to fit 2-point seat belts.
Have a look at the window rubbers as well. They wear really quick and let water in when they are not in perfect condition.

If everything on that list is ok - you have found yourself a great car. The 107's are very good cars for every day use and are a pleasure to drive (the V8's are a bit front-heavy, but I can give you an upgrade kit that eliminates that problem).

Good luck,
Benjamin

PaulK_CCI

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Hmmmm, this is trickier than I thought..! Mrs A (while doing the whole "it's your car, you decide" thing) is 100% against the Merc. She hates the styling, thinks it's bland and not "classic" enough. Not good news...

What is good news though is that we had another look at the budget because of this, upped it by a little and now a Lotus Elan +2 is in range. It's more than I wanted to spend but a much nicer car and much more what I was looking for...

*sigh* decisions, decisions!

Excellent advise from Ben re. the W107's !!

Re rear seating, I don't quite aggree with Dades comments about the rear seating in a P1800. I have had W107's and P1800, and I aggree with Ben that the rear seating in a W107 is a joke, and you couldn't possibly fit two adults in there, and even two kids would be stretching it for longer distances, whereas in a P1800's even though space is somewhat hampered by the low sloping roofline, but at least there is some sort of seating and a backrest, and kids would have enough space to relax, even on longer distances.

Just one word of caution on the Elan's.... you might find that your budget stretches to be able to buy one, but you will find that they will be a lot more troublesome than both cars put together.... Owning and running a 60-ies Lotus will give a new definition to the words "tinkering and fettling" as this is what you will need to be doing with the car consistently. They have a notoriously bad build quality, the electrics are a joke and the engines needs constant fettling to keep them in tune. That said, a very well sorted and restored example should last, but I know a lot of owners who bought supposedly minters and still had to sort all sorts of issues while they owned the cars...

alastair

I wouldn't bank on sticking kids in the back of a Volvo 1800 for any long drive - it's do-able, but not in any comfort. I've a 1800ES (the sports estate version they made in '72 and '73) - more storage space, but no more seating space - you can squeeze in small adults or medium sized kids in the back, but they'll lose any feelings in the limb region pretty quickly.

If you're considering an 1800 it's normally just rust you need to look out for. Check the sills for a single vertical seam/joint - if missing it's a sign of filler or previous work. The other typical points to watch out for bubbles/filler are the back of the front wings - there's an internal cavity that practically invites rust - also around the headlamps and if it's anything up to a 1800S - around/under the petrol cap that let in the rain if left unchecked - also under the rear bumper. The real rust buckets were the early models built in England, but the Swedish built models have stood up a bit better. These things are prone to rust, but not to Alfasud levels.

The engine is a tough lump, with not much in the way of weak points - same block as the Amazons. Automatics are underpowered and not much fun to drive. The fuel injected models (also Bosch D-jetonic) can be akward to maintain - there's a manifold air pressure sensor that can fail and can be difficult/expensive to source and impossible to fix - some have moved over to modern DIY fuel injection management systems as a consequence. Fuel economy isn't their strong point, nor is speed, and the steering is heavy (truck-like), but they hold their own on the motorway etc, and the overdrive keeps things civilised. There can be gremlins with the lucas electrics, but normally it's just the clock that doesn't work.

Best of luck with whatever you go for!

8~)

With all this doom and gloom, soon we'll recomend an Avensis.

(If you want to see 107 rust areas in the raw PM me - mine is stripped for all to see.)

--amadeus--

I know what you mean - I doubt there is any classic make / model that we could post up here that we couldn't generate a bit of negativity on!

After much back and forth I think I've decided to go for the late entry and buy the Elan. I know that Lotus stands for "Lots Of Trouble, Usually Serious" but I love the styling, history and performance of them. I've found one that's for sale thru an independent specialist that had a full engine re-build and a new galvanised Lotus chassis installed around 10,000 miles ago. History file goes back 23 years and its recently had a new stainless steel exhaust manifold fitted, along with new trackrod ends, new anti-roll bar bushes, new front wheel bearings, new fan-belt and a general service. Sounds like teh engine was mildly breathed on during teh re-build (competition springs, etc) so I'm pretty much sold...

Flying out on Thur if all goes to plan!

8~)

Be lucky!

mike65

Its not forget what L-O-T-U-S stands for!

Mike.

Dades

Best of luck amadeus.

The Elan+2 was one of the cars I considered a couple of years ago. I couldn't live with a fixed roof however (and the S2 was just too small!) Can't picture how much space there is in the back, but I hope it's bigger on the inside than it looks on the outside!

Bet it sounds great.

MercMan Ben

--amadeus-- wrote: »

I know what you mean - I doubt there is any classic make / model that we could post up here that we couldn't generate a bit of negativity on!

Mercedes W114/W115 !!! In my opinion one of the best cars ever build. Extremely reliable, very good comfort and handling, loads of space, parts are still available, they offer a whole range of engines (280 E is quite quick) and options to choose from and I think they have a very classic but simple design.
The only thing is - they rust, but which car, that is older than 30 years doesn't

--amadeus--

Hmmm, not a big fan of teh styling of the W114/115 cars. I had a W108 for a while which was much softer, a more sixties shape and was a fine car.

But that doesn't matter now because I got home a couple of hours ago in my new baby - a bahama yellow Lotus Elan+2! Bodywork and interior have what the dealer called "patina", which basically means that I should do a full re-spray and at the very least a new headlining. However the chassis, suspensio, gearbox and - in particular - the engine are utterly exquisite. Drove from darkest Kent to Limerick and did not miss a beat, great car. Got a decent deal on it - paid €9,500 which is fair considering the type of work I need to do and the amount already done to it (23 years of history including photos of teh new galvanised chassis being done).

Thanks a million for all of teh advice - it was greatly appreciated!

unkel

Nice one. They must be very rare in this country. Well wear

Any pics soon?

Dades

unkel wrote: »

Any pics soon?

+ 1. Want pics NOW!

I got caught in the midst of a lotus convoy last Summer around the Sallygap. Saw a few +2s in there, so there must be some kind of club thing going on.

--amadeus--

Thanks!

I don't have pics of my own yet but here are photos from teh dealer, and since you twisted my arm!




I've looked for an Irish Lotus Club online but can't find anything, might post a thread in a couple of days time. Need to find a fitter for headlining too...

Anyone have any idea what a +2 is worth over here? I got the purchase past financial control (mrs A) on the basis that it's worth more here than there...!

Dades

Looks in very straight shape.
And with what you say about the underbits too, well done.:)
Interior looks cared for.

If you went for a respray would you consider a change?
Not that there's anything wrong with that yellow - it suits it.

3ps

patina? looks clean to me compared to any I've seen.

--amadeus--

lol - that's the dealer photo don't forget, they have ways of hiding these things until you get the dam' cars home!

I've just given it a good wipe down and teh body work, esp on the pass. side, needs doing. It's got lots of those tiny fiberglass "bobbles" and a couple of crazed parts. Also a few scratches here and there that have been bodged over.

I'm assuming that a regular bodyshop could re-spray glassfibre? As there are no bodywork repairs (no rust!!) and the car could almost be put in your pocket it's so small it shouldn't cost the earth...

Spit62500

There might be issues with the gel coat - a lot of body shops here won't know what to do with it or won't want to touch it - you'd want to be sure of who you're getting to do it and maybe get a written guarantee for their work.

Sorry if I sound negative - it looks great and you've got something that shows imagination and has a great heritage.

There's a similar car living on Leinster road in Rathmines that had some paintwork done about a year ago. Might be worth making contact with the owner to see who did it (note under a wiper?).

Or maybe a Classic American specialist who's done a few Corvettes?

8~)

Looks good - There are at least two other Elan owners over on classiccars.ie... I met up with them on a run recently; enthusiastic is an understatement (well, it would have to be...)

Hifive

Spit62500 wrote: »

There might be issues with the gel coat - a lot of body shops here won't know what to do with it or won't want to touch it - you'd want to be sure of who you're getting to do it and maybe get a written guarantee for their work.

Sorry if I sound negative - it looks great and you've got something that shows imagination and has a great heritage.

There's a similar car living on Leinster road in Rathmines that had some paintwork done about a year ago. Might be worth making contact with the owner to see who did it (note under a wiper?).

Or maybe a Classic American specialist who's done a few Corvettes?

Good suggestions.
Here's another,

Maybe one of the boat yards/marine refinishes could help. I've dealt with a company called "Marine Concepts", in Malahide in Dublin for repair work on my boat and I was very happy with the results.
It's run by a very competent guy called Frank who spends his time refinishing Fiberglas boats to an excellent standard.
At the time he didn't have indoor facilities, he just operated out of a container in the boat yard in Malahide, but I think he now has a unit here,

Marine Concepts Ireland Broomfield Business Park Malahide, Co. Dublin. Tel: 00 353 1 816 8409 Mobile: 0 353 87 279 5709 Email: frank@jokerboats.ie
Don't know if he would take on a car, but having seen the standard of his work on boats maybe it'd be worth a call. Also I'd imagine he would be quiet at this time of year.

--amadeus--

Great ideas! Thanks!

MercMad

Nice car.

My neighbour has a blue one the same, he has only used it twice in two years though, which is a shame !

Dades

MercMad wrote: »

My neighbour has a blue one the same, he has only used it twice in two years though, which is a shame !

That's not a shame - it's a travesty!