Disturbing Islamic Websites

Filan

Just after reading...as I frequently do....a prominent Islamic website.. A topic deals with the Hijab and how all those who don't wear it will go to hell....and grotesque references to such women are made.... Non believers and non-hijab/niqabi's... were considered to be under the influence of Shatan....and some media figures are mentioned as examples of who deserve punishment...truly repulsive

What disturbs me even more is that most (circa 90%) of those who responded felt that it was a 'beautiful' verse....... How a woman is considered so virtuous just because she covers her head.... and how everyone else is explicitly damned....baffles me... How dare these people feel that everyone who dosen't cover their head is evil and damned...how dare they feel that they have the right to judge other people in such a cruel and savage language.

I'm not saying that all Muslims are bad...or that all Muslims wouls subscribe to this....far from it...I know of many good and tolerant Muslims...a majority of Muslims are such I'm sure. But any religion that can direct people to write such...cannot but concern me.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

yeah, because christianity was *so* good to women.

Filan

I'm not condoning any misogyny...elements of which are contained in most religions....and some would say society at large...


However what amazes me about Islam is how many women agree with the aims of their oppressors. That is a horse flogged to death here though. It is not my intention to continue the pointless flogging.

More disturbing though was how savage these Islamic women were in their demonisation of either non-Hijabi Muslims or of the majority of the worlds female population who do not cover.... How certain they were of their own superiority simply because they cover their heads. The judgmental nature of Islam and other religions.....is disconcerting.

I stress again though that I'm against Islamic people...merely some manifesting elements of Islamic doctrine...and organised religion at large when taken literally.

Is it that people who belong to such sites are by nature fannatical or devoted?. Is it that moderate voices wouldn't participate on such forums ?.

dr_manhattan

"However what amazes me about Islam is how many women agree with the aims of their oppressors."

Many islamic women don't. but please, don't make the decision to wear the veil into an automatic case of oppression. It is also a choice.

Let me put it this way: high heels and mini skirts are the trappings of western freedom for women. Boob jobs and cosmetic surgery are also the norm the days. Most women will say these things are all about feeling good about themselves, but many more will talk about the misery of being ignored or worse for not being sexy enough, etc. Destructive diseases such as bulimia and self harm are not uncommon. Men have left and indeed beaten their women for not "making an effort" in this regard.

So would it be fair of me to say that western society forces their women to dress like whores and cut the bodies god gave them bla bla bla?

Nope, it would be a generalisation of the worst kind. Not unfounded, and certainly not unheard of, but unfair.

And so you are allowing a website with a lot of posts is scaring you about islam?

My point is this: fundamentalists everywhere do not like reasoned debate. The irrational fear that people feel for new and different things is their best friend, and they want as much of it as possible. They set up these sites for just that reason: do you think any sane jihadi is gonna send an email asking which frontline to report to?

No, these sites are just as much about revolting western liberals as they are about inciting vengeful ideas.

Just like american fundamentalist websites are about repelling and disgusting islamic liberals: with christians, thse guys are only preaching to the converted. Nobody surfs a website and goes "hey they're right! god does hate fags!" - they come there because they think that already.

So please, think calmly about this. You already knew that there are people who will encourage schoolgirls to don explosive packs and run at checkpoints. You already knew that there are bad, bad people making nasty things happen in the world.

Is it that scary to find out that some people hate women, and like to boast about it? Have you never met a bona fide, sick in the head religious woman hater before?

If so, you mustn't have grown up in this country ;-)

And btw i'm not excusing these attitudes or saying they can wait until more important issues get sorted - quite the opposite. I am saying that the treatment of women is possibly the most important issue in the cultural divide that the media are so fond of between "east" and "west".

So you should think it over before getting all hyped about it.

And btw: what on earth were you doing surfing a fundamentalist moslem website? Are you that bored? lol

shqipshume

i see this stuff all the time its very disturbing, they run around screaming that all Christians are bad and it is written in the Quran,if ur not muslim and will not convert u will be killed,and i wouldnt mind but didnt catholisicm come first,and didnt mohammed rob from the bible and create it 2 his liking.
and i am not been bad but muslim,s who are devoted 2 the Quran are never a real friend cause they will side with their religion over even their own country.

dr_manhattan

oh look, it's a fresh new troll!

hi troll!

Filan

I read such sites....as a means of understanding them....and they aren't fundamentalist...at least in many ways..... I prefer to read them rather than read about them....I read the Quaran rather than read about it....and in many ways such sites...far from boring can offer a tremendous insight....however disturbing.

How representative of Islamic opinion are such forums though I wonder? is it the hardcore of Islam which believes such or is this mindset more prevalent?....

Some contributors do appear conciliatory but they always appear drowned out or subverted........

I recognise that Hijab is in -some- cases a matter of choice...and that western society is in many ways miogynistic..albeit in different ways.....

dr_manhattan

Do you read arabic?

cos if you don't then i'd suggest you think about what's being said and who's intended to read it.

but most importantly:

"How representative of Islamic opinion are such forums though I wonder? is it the hardcore of Islam which believes such or is this mindset more prevalent?...."

So in otherwords, you are gaining no understanding at all, anymore than if i wanted to read about protestantism and surfed a KKK website.

If you're so curious about moslem opinion, why not visit a mosque or - gasp - befriend a moslem and express your curiousity?

Not a single moslem I have ever met has expressed views such as those that you mention: not one. Nor - i'm pretty certain - would they in private.

also: you describe a 'topic' and then you sat a 'verse'?

can you give us a link please? if this is poetry or a hadith i'd like to see...

you see you're being very vague, basically.

shqipshume

dr_manhattan wrote: »

oh look, it's a fresh new troll!

hi troll!

hahahahaha hi :rolleyes: Troll lol i didnt see that in my sn i must have mistyped lol

why have u no concept of the truth, did u not see the screaming and shouting muslims walking around london streets, death 2 all who do not believe and were allowed 2 shout their islamic hate at us westerners ermmmmmm me thinks u have been burying ur head in the sand where they would like u 2 be, :eek: if it was us shouting things like that we would be arrested dont u think?

p.s have u studied the Quran and the hadith? huh i have


this a quote from the hadith, by mohammed himself, see anything suss there What the Hadith says about wife beating:

"A women complained to Muhammad that her husband slapped her on the face, (which was still marked by the slap). At first the prophet said to her: "Get even with him", but then added: "Wait until I think about it". Later on, Allah supposedly revealed 4:34 to Muhammad, after which the prophet said: "We wanted one thing but Allah wanted another, and what Allah wanted is best". [To beat your wife is best.] ("At-Tafsir al-Kabir" on 4:34, Razi (Quoted in "Beyond the Veil, Razi is one of the greatest Muslim scholars

Filan

I have befriended some Muslims.. I have met the fannatical and the irreverant..the largest group of whom were somewhere in between...adopting some Islamic practice ...for the most part what suited them,...kind of Ala Carte...akin to a lot of Catholics..... or as at Ramadan I feel that Muslims I worked with largely fasted because they were afraid to visibly abstain..

What struck me most was their lack of willingness to discuss or debate. If they were devout they viewed the Quaran as infallible ...and beyond question...if they were decadent they said they didn't understand or had never read the Quaran...... Such Islamic sites do not appear to leave this door open however. They do not appear ready to agree to differ....

I don't want to appear to demonise any people..... But constructive, objective debate I have found very difficult to find within Islam.... I ultimately only want the various people of the world to live in peace....with mutual respect and agreement to differ....

I hope that in time the Islamic world will embrace questioning rather than rote learning and blind faith as it does presently. Only people who are insecure subvert debate.

Anyway I hope that Muslims do integrate successfully wherever they go....I'm sure many will

I hope that they can integrate into our society...none of us are perfect....but Islam and Irish society is a topic which needs discussion...and not a pretence that debate is unnecessary.

I stress again though..I don't dislike Muslims...I don't hate anyone... I just value discussion.

heirenach

Hi Filan, I think u are right about Muslims not wanting to discuss or debate, I tried on the Islamic site ,I told them their was no Democracy on their site and got a warning for that.I do not think they want to integrate with that kind of attitude. I think they want to keep their women in the dark ages and use religion to do so. Some Muslim countries are so rich and yet their people are kept in poverty and controlled by religion.

dr_manhattan

"p.s have u studied the Quran and the hadith? huh i have"

no you haven't, because that's not a quote from a hadith, it's a quote from a dissection of a hadith.

"this a quote from the hadith, by mohammed himself,"

no it isn't, see above.

"Later on, Allah supposedly revealed 4:34 to Muhammad"

LOL so mohammed talks about himself in the third person, and says "supposedly" about his dealings with allah?

Your "study" of the koran is, well... not very evident, mate.

Also, anyone who has studied it will know better than to say that it's robbed from the bible" - thr bible itself then, is robbed from the torah. All of these stories, especially the flood, are shared by the mesopotamian area back as far as gilgamesh itself.

You're an obvious troll, and that was your first post. So really, give it a rest with your "i've studied the koran" - it's like a motto for islamophobes.

later

dr_manhattan

and as for those people complaining abnout moslems not wanting to debate: would you like it if you were working in a moslem country and at every opportunity people would say "so, these miniskirts then, what's that all about" while newspapers openly rant about "violent christanity" whilst bombing the piss out of ireland?

Don't you think people get tired of that ****? Why should they answer your questions about their relationship to their god?

Same way as if you walk up to an african american and go "hey, what about those LA riots and the black panthers?" they'll probably look tired too.

Nobody has visited a mosque to ask questions then? It would seem the logical place to start seeing as you're all so concerned...?

Or do you not like the idea of being surrounded by people who view YOUR religion as bigoted and violent?

Filan

Manhattan with respect I view your references to Ireland and Christianity as a deliberation attempt to short circuit this thread off topic..it is irrelevant to this thread and answers nothing...spam.

While you criticise others you offer little constructive yourself......merely resorting to gibbers of "Islamophobia"... and whether someone is a 'Troll' or not it does not make their points any less legitimate through my eyes. What is your experience with the Iman Manhattan? .

That's one of the major problems surrounding not just immigration but equality in this country. objective Criticique is rarely possible because it is deemed racist or discrimination...and nobody...including me..should be beyond that.

Look I'm not here to argue with anyone..or at least I hadn't intended to.... I had hoped that some people here would be capable of leaving personal feelings behind and engage rationaly.....

I have already said that there is plenty of decent Muslims....and this is not an attack on them personaly... But objective debate can be healthy.... I have seen precious little of it.

"You hate people because you do not understand them and youdo not understand them because you hate them" someone once said . I want to understand..I don't , nor don't ever want to hate.

dr_manhattan

Listen, here's the situation: I am attempting to answer what i see as entirely generalised and out of context criticisms of Islam, by providing alternative ways of looking at the situation.

My references to christianity and ireland are in fact entirely valid as they are simply about reversing the situation in order to foster better understanding.

Think about it: If you don't care what it feels like to be in a foreign country coping with constant questioning about your religious beliefs and cultures of origin, then you don't care about the people you're talking to, so why are you talking to them?

My entire point is that we should look at what is done in the name of christianity (us) before we start examining what is done in the name of islam (them) - it will show us that what we are dealing with is in fact not better or worse than us, just different.

Now, there's still things that nobody's answering:

1. why not question ourselves about high heels and miniskirts? don't tell me they don't matter to women's rights, they're enough to get a rapist acquitted.

2. why has nobody visited a mosque? if you are curious about a religion, you might approach a few followers, but if they were private about their religion, you might just go talk... no?

3. do you not realise that most moslems think that we think their religion is barbaric? do you not understand paranoia and defensiveness when you see the headlines every day about things done in your name?

hell, were none of you in the UK in the 80s, when people would openly call you a murdering paddy bastard? You think moslems don't get this regularly?

oh and finally:

"the Iman"

Tempted as i am to ask what david bowie's wife has to do with things, i'll assume you mean "the imam" in which case i'd have to ask "which imam are you talking about?"

dr_manhattan

oh and PS:

"objective Criticique is rarely possible because it is deemed racist or discrimination"

your critique is not - in fairness - very objective seeing as imho you haven't gone to very much trouble to examine what you're reading. I am merely pointing out to you a number of things that i feel you should think about when attempting to understand moslem attitudes that you interpret as hostile. I'm not having an argument with you.

I know many moslems who have attitudes to christians / westerners thast could be described as "hostile" - they simply are very cautious about what they say and they don't talk about their religion in front of non-moslems. I know quite a few jewish people like this, too. They harbour no bomb plots they're just brought up - and rightly so - to not speak openly about it.

I mean, would you rather they proselatise (sp?) like jehovah's witnesses?

And I'm not barracking you for being "a racist" or an "islamophobe" - i am trying to make you see that - just as many of us see moslems as potential crackpots - many moslems see all of us as raving islamophobes.

For example:

Due to experiences in london in the 80s, it makes me uncomfortable when londoners ask me if i'm a catholic. The reason for this is because i'm conditioned to expect it to be a problem or a cue for an insult. It's not hostile, and i don't have a problem with cockneys, it's just a thing.

And visit the middle east sometime, you might see why people who've left there might think it's unwise to get into a religious debate. There's been a bit of an argument over religion there the past while.

That is absolutely all that i'm saying, apologies if you think i'm accusing you of anything, i'm not scoring points here.

moe_sizlak

dr_manhattan wrote: »

Listen, here's the situation: I am attempting to answer what i see as entirely generalised and out of context criticisms of Islam, by providing alternative ways of looking at the situation.

My references to christianity and ireland are in fact entirely valid as they are simply about reversing the situation in order to foster better understanding.

Think about it: If you don't care what it feels like to be in a foreign country coping with constant questioning about your religious beliefs and cultures of origin, then you don't care about the people you're talking to, so why are you talking to them?

My entire point is that we should look at what is done in the name of christianity (us) before we start examining what is done in the name of islam (them) - it will show us that what we are dealing with is in fact not better or worse than us, just different.

Now, there's still things that nobody's answering:

1. why not question ourselves about high heels and miniskirts? don't tell me they don't matter to women's rights, they're enough to get a rapist acquitted.

2. why has nobody visited a mosque? if you are curious about a religion, you might approach a few followers, but if they were private about their religion, you might just go talk... no?

3. do you not realise that most moslems think that we think their religion is barbaric? do you not understand paranoia and defensiveness when you see the headlines every day about things done in your name?

hell, were none of you in the UK in the 80s, when people would openly call you a murdering paddy bastard? You think moslems don't get this regularly?

oh and finally:

"the Iman"

Tempted as i am to ask what david bowie's wife has to do with things, i'll assume you mean "the imam" in which case i'd have to ask "which imam are you talking about?"

this guy is a master of spin , in order to deflect legitimite debate about islam , he points towards irrelevant long gone events with reagard ireland and christianity

theres a saying , never benchmark against bad behaviour

dr_manhattan

"he points towards irrelevant long gone events within christianity "

can you tell me where please? is it the miniskirt you're referring to, or the UK in the 80s? Or the war in Iraq?

I'm confused... couldn't you say that by dismissing everything i say as ancient history, THAT's spin?

Or is spin only when someone interferes with Islam bashing?

moe_sizlak

dr_manhattan wrote: »

"he points towards irrelevant long gone events within christianity "

can you tell me where please? is it the miniskirt you're referring to, or the UK in the 80s? Or the war in Iraq?

I'm confused... couldn't you say that by dismissing everything i say as ancient history, THAT's spin?

Or is spin only when someone interferes with Islam bashing?

making the slightest criticism of islam to the likes of you is islam bashing

i know your not a muslim so whats the deal with you , are you just trying to appear trendy to your other trendy friends by defending all theese liberal sacred cows

dr_manhattan

"i know your not a muslim so whats the deal with you , are you just trying to appear trendy to your other trendy friends by defending all theese liberal sacred cows"

Sorry mate but that's just about as sad a collection of assumptions as i've seen in a while: and btw for some of us, Islam is not a "trendy" subject it's something that we've been raised with. Just cos you're alarmed that most of the world doesn't think or look like you, doesn't make me "trendy" for not caring one way or another, or for thinking your opinions are stunted and ill-informed.

Unlike yourself it would seem, I'm not writing this for anyone's benefit.

And there's plenty of islam bashing in this thread - such as where someone claims to have "direct quotes" from mohammed but does not... I really have no idea what you're so upset about... "help my right to slander religions is being oppressed by the liberal agenda!" - hell we had someone pretending to be a koran student here a while back, or was that you in a new identity?

seriously, stop whinging about what I am or my friends are, liberal agendas and answer the debate, stop throwing your toys out of the pram it's getting really boring.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Could you elaborate on the miniskirt/high heel argument? It's not like they're a requirement for all western women now are they?

johnnyskeleton

Filan wrote: »

However what amazes me about Islam is how many women agree with the aims of their oppressors.

What makes them oppressors? Surely it's the fact that if you were subject to their rules you would feel oppressed? Now, if other women agree with these rules, how exactly are they oppressed?

Filan wrote:

More disturbing though was how savage these Islamic women were in their demonisation of either non-Hijabi Muslims or of the majority of the worlds female population who do not cover.... How certain they were of their own superiority simply because they cover their heads. The judgmental nature of Islam and other religions.....is disconcerting.

You're no soft touch when it comes to condeming them either.

Filan wrote:

I stress again though that I'm against Islamic people...

Wow. Tell it like it is.

Filan wrote:

Is it that people who belong to such sites are by nature fannatical or devoted?. Is it that moderate voices wouldn't participate on such forums ?.

It's probably that it's either all duck or no dinner - you either subscribe to these views or you don't.

johnnyskeleton

Filan wrote: »

That's one of the major problems surrounding not just immigration but equality in this country. objective Criticique is rarely possible because it is deemed racist or discrimination...and nobody...including me..should be beyond that.

That's because when it comes to religion everything is completely subjective.

Filan wrote:

Look I'm not here to argue with anyone..or at least I hadn't intended to.... I had hoped that some people here would be capable of leaving personal feelings behind and engage rationaly.....

Then what exactly is your rational point? Your original post seems to make 3 points:
1.You have come across a disturbing islamic website that says that all women who don't wear an item of clothing will go to hell, non believers were considered to be under the influence of Shatan, and some media figures deserve punishment.

2. Some people believe that it is beautiful for women to cover their heads, and bad for someone not to cover their head.

3. By implication, this website was directed by their religion.

My rational counterargument is that I don't care what women wear (other than the less of it the better on the more attractive ones), I don't know who Shatan is, some media figues (like Kevin Myers) do deserve punishment, and as for 3, how do you know that their religion directed them to make the website. Is it not possible that religion is an excuse for the website?

Filan wrote:

I have already said that there is plenty of decent Muslims....and this is not an attack on them personaly... But objective debate can be healthy.... I have seen precious little of it.

If you wanted to argue that a good wife cleans her home and gives her husband oral sex every evening, you won't get much objective debate from women either. This is because the way you are going about it is very aggressive, you don't seem to really want to learn (so much as to vent your anger) and most importantly, you are starting from your views as opposed to starting from a center point. Instead of asking should women with certain religious beliefs wear a certain garment, you say that you are disgusted and replused by the suggestion that they should. Why should anyone answer you objectively or fairly when you behave in such a manner?

Filan wrote:

"You hate people because you do not understand them and youdo not understand them because you hate them" someone once said . I want to understand..I don't , nor don't ever want to hate.

Well, until you learn to ask nicely people are going to assume that you do hate them and don't want to understand, and that the above sentiment is just a veil (no pun intended).

johnnyskeleton

dr_manhattan wrote: »

1. why not question ourselves about high heels and miniskirts? don't tell me they don't matter to women's rights, they're enough to get a rapist acquitted.

This seems to be a sticking point with you, but rape has nothing to do with women's rights. And if someone accused of rape is acquitted, they are not a rapist.

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

Could you elaborate on the miniskirt/high heel argument? It's not like they're a requirement for all western women now are they?

Well this thread isn't about sharia law (which makes it a legal requirement to wear certain articles) but rather about how some people believe that women should wear these articles. The requirement to wear these articles doesn't come from law or other binding authority, but rather from societal pressure. In the same way that fashionistas have to wear the latest fashion, so too do believers in certain faiths, if you get my meaning. At the same time, the women who don't want to be fashionistas but want to fit in feel societal pressure to wear these garments. Similar pressure would apply where someone who doesn't necessarily believe that they are compelled to wear an item for their religion, is none the less forced to wear it to fit in.

Hows that?

SubjectSean

dr_manhattan wrote: »

hell, were none of you in the UK in the 80s, when people would openly call you a murdering paddy bastard?

Exactly. I was in Manchester with my mammy in the 1970's and went to the shops with her to get some mince. I must have been around 8 years old. An Englishman in the que at the butchers hocked a big spit in my mothers face and told her "Fu** off back to Ireland you fu**ing Irish bitch". Granted bombs had been going off but it was hardly my poor auld mammys fault. It left a big impression on me that whole incident so it did.

Now I see Irish people behaving the exact same way towards Moslems and the shame I feel for our nation is fairly intense. Shouldn't we of all people know better?

dr_manhattan

Cheers for the dose of sanity subjectsean. To answer what you said above:

"This seems to be a sticking point with you, but rape has nothing to do with women's rights. And if someone accused of rape is acquitted, they are not a rapist."

Sorry but I actually think that security from sexual assault and the feeling that a sexual assailant will often act with impunity are very much about womens' rights: I am not talking about the letter of the law though.

What I mean is this:

In islamic fundamentalist society, men have been known to throw acid at and rape women who dress immodestly. We condemn this, and act like a woman's appearance never mitigates in how she's treated as a person here in the 'civilised west'.

But it does: in court, short skirts and high heels can be skillfully manipulated in a rape case to place the woman in the spotlight as 'to blame' for her assault. Going into rooms with men, taking short cuts late at night, drinking irresponsibly... these are things that men are free to do at any time, but if a woman does them she can regret it later as her 'irresponsible' behaviour and attire will have deprived her of the right to say "no" to sexual intercourse.

It's all about freedoms, and while on paper the west guarantees a woman's rights equally in practise they are - imho - second to ideas of appearance and social propriety.

When you add all that to the fact that *the overwhelming majority* of rapes go unreported because of lack in confidence in society's ability to punish the attackers, then you have a society which - in practise, not on paper - subjugates women.

It is my opinion that we should fix our own house before we start our paternalistic "you've got to shape up you know" attitude to Islam.

Is the site going to be named btw?

;-)

Bottle_of_Smoke

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Well this thread isn't about sharia law (which makes it a legal requirement to wear certain articles) but rather about how some people believe that women should wear these articles. The requirement to wear these articles doesn't come from law or other binding authority, but rather from societal pressure. In the same way that fashionistas have to wear the latest fashion, so too do believers in certain faiths, if you get my meaning. At the same time, the women who don't want to be fashionistas but want to fit in feel societal pressure to wear these garments. Similar pressure would apply where someone who doesn't necessarily believe that they are compelled to wear an item for their religion, is none the less forced to wear it to fit in.

Hows that?

The bullsh*t's in bold. They aren't forced to wear them. What's the problem with them?

donaghs

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

What makes them oppressors? Surely it's the fact that if you were subject to their rules you would feel oppressed? Now, if other women agree with these rules, how exactly are they oppressed?

Not so sure about this one. Lets put it in an Irish context which seems to be a common debating technique. I'm not comparing two equals, just pointing out that if someone says something is ok, this does not necessarily means it is. We should always bear in mind the principles of human rights.

For example: if a woman spent most of her life in a Magdalen Asylum, and said she did not mind living there, does that make it ok?

moe_sizlak

donaghs wrote: »

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

What makes them oppressors? Surely it's the fact that if you were subject to their rules you would feel oppressed? Now, if other women agree with these rules, how exactly are they oppressed?

Not so sure about this one. Lets put it in an Irish context which seems to be a common debating technique. I'm not comparing two equals, just pointing out that if someone says something is ok, this does not necessarily means it is. We should always bear in mind the principles of human rights.

For example: if a woman spent most of her life in a Magdalen Asylum, and said she did not mind living there, does that make it ok?

an irish girl in a magdalene laundry would not be ok because to the kind of libs who mostly frequent and always moderate theese forums , the catholic church is fair game , islam on the other hand is a sacred cow

threeleggedhors

I agree with you Moe. It almost feels politically incorrect to question anything we see as being wrong with Islam. Criticism of Catholicism is fairly regular and publicised. Probably the most insane thing I've ever seen was about 5years ago during a heatwave over Europe when lots of elderly people in France died. I was in Paris and struggling with it myself and what do I see but a Muslim woman dressed from head to toe in black with just her eyes to be seen. I don't honestly know how she wasn't passing out. Religious insanity !!

dr_manhattan

"For example: if a woman spent most of her life in a Magdalen Asylum, and said she did not mind living there, does that make it ok?"

Women who voluntarily go to a magdalene laundry are called "nuns". Of course it's okay - even though it's completely out of context and a daft parallel.

Women in the west are *heavily pressured* to conform. See bulimia, anorexia, and other disorders: are we saying these are non issues?

And as for it being okay to slag off catholicism but not Islam: wow, never heard that before. How strange on an irish forum for someone to pigeonhole you because of your views; I'm actually not the slightest bit liberal.

I just believe that christianity, Islam and Judaism are the same religion.

All three marginalise women, practise violence in pursuit of their religio-political aims, and no one of the three is any better or worse than the other.

donaghs

dr_manhattan wrote: »

Women who voluntarily go to a magdalene laundry are called "nuns". Of course it's okay - even though it's completely out of context and a daft parallel.

Boards.ie is full of daft parallels!:D I understand what you mean but it think it makes a point.

The Magdalen Asylums were more complicated than that. Women entered at different ages. Some were minors rather than adults, entered by their legal guardians. Others did actually enter voluntarily as their families would not have them, so they literally had no-where else to go. Those who entered could never have known what a lifetime their could be like. In theory the inmates were also free to go - some did manage to do this. Interesting to compare with being born-into or joining a religion/cult with strict beliefs.

On a more positive note, the Magdalen Asylums have been closed, and have been condemned publically for the abuses committed at them. Some progress, belatedly.

My original point (easy to avoid the main point and focus on other details) was not trying to make a direct comparison, but to highlight that if a person says they do not have an issue with a situation which you feel is wrong - does this make it ok?

dr_manhattan

"but to highlight that if a person says they do not have an issue with a situation which you feel is wrong - does this make it ok?"

At last, sensible debate ;-)

In my personal opinion, yes this does in fact make it okay.

I personally believe that a woman who is making surgical enhancements to her body to be more popular, or a man cutting his penis to make it larger, are doing this because of deeply flawed worldviews.

However they would argue differently, and some of them would be right: hell, it's their decision, so it's right for them. How can I second guess them?

Likewise any woman's dress code is her own business: mini skirts, jilbabs, whatever. Until she starts saying everyone else should do the same, it's not my business: the only reason I point out the pressure in the west to conform to body and dress ideas (do you think orange faced slappers in belly tops are dressing up like this because of freedom?) is because imho it's the same coin, different sides.

But this is off topic.

The fact is that Islam as a whole does not force women to do anything.

It is political systems which pretend to base themselves in Islam that do this.

Just like christianity did not ban contraception in Ireland, it was a political system based on christianity that did this.

To some this may seem like a tiny distinction. To me it is vastly important.

The ruling council or Iran, the house of Saud, the taleban... these are not Islam. These are Islamic political branches and pseudo cults.

Is christianity responsible for the jonestown massacre or the branch davidians? For the salem witch trials or the magdalene laundries?

Nope, it's not. There are no teachings in christianity that justify the above.

And just like Islam, christianity is multifaceted: there are coptics, greek orthodox, eastern orthodox, syrian, druz, catholic, protestant, baptist, episcopalian....

We're not ignorant enough to ask an american christian why russian orthodox christians persecuted jews. Why should we? What would they know?

So why should "Islam" take the blame for everything people say or do in its name?

If you want me to check, I'm sure I could list 20 christian websites calling for genocide, murder, armed insurrection and the removal of voting rights from women.

And that is my only point: before you start talking about "disturbingly violent websites" try putting yourself in other peoples' shoes, and surf christian websites.

After all, when was the last time a moslem bombed you out of your home?

Quite a few moslems right now don't have to think hard to recall the last time a christian did.

So if we sit around accusing each other of being violent, well... what purpose does that serve?

May as well sit around saying "the IRA are violent", "no! the UVF are!"

we're all pretty damn violent at the end of the day.

dr_manhattan

Oh and one more thing:

"The Magdalen Asylums were more complicated than that."

The reason I took a simplistic approach to your initial question is cos if we're gonna be simplistic about "islam is violent" then we may as well say "all women living in convents are nuns"

;-)