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The Bible and prostitutation
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19-12-2007 10:36pm#1I'm pretty sure I made that word up but was wondering what Christians views on here are. Unfortunately, I'm not a very good Christian, and it's been a while since I've read the Bible but there seems to be a lot of hate for prostitutes in there. They seem to be among the worst of the worse. I don't agree with prostitution but at the end of the day will God forgive them? The vast majority of them are going through a tough time and are just 'providing a service' because they need the money. I know that selling the body God gave you is a terrible thing but, are all prostitutes sinners?
Sorry if this is stupid
Regards...0
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Jesus welcomed prostitutes and shared the Good News of the Gospel with them. He was criticised by the self-righteous Pharisees for doing so.
Of course Jesus had at least two prostitutes in His family tree (Tamar and Rahab).
While prostitution is sinful, so are many other things. God welcomes us and offers us an opportunity to change our lives. I personally think God is much more angered by the pimps and drug dealers who exploit prostitutes, and by the men who pay for their services, than He is by the girls who get stuck in that lifestyle.0 -
We are forgiven through Christs sacrifice. Once we repent. Prostitute, pimp, drug dealer, murderer etc. I wouldn't break it down into levels of badness. All are sinners, and all can be saved.0
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Killaqueen!!! wrote: »I'm pretty sure I made that word up but was wondering what Christians views on here are. Unfortunately, I'm not a very good Christian, and it's been a while since I've read the Bible but there seems to be a lot of hate for prostitutes in there. They seem to be among the worst of the worse. I don't agree with prostitution but at the end of the day will God forgive them? The vast majority of them are going through a tough time and are just 'providing a service' because they need the money. I know that selling the body God gave you is a terrible thing but, are all prostitutes sinners?
Sorry if this is stupid
Regards...
Prostitution is in the same category as adultry-both of which are forgiveable.
God refers to himself as the bridegroom and the church as his bride. (Hence the beautiful poetry in the Song of Songs...)
A marraige between a man and a woman is a reflection of the God/Man relationship.
If a man or woman commit an act of adultry or prostitution, they are turing themselves (the bride) away from God (the bridegroom) ie. giving themselves over to something other than God.
As PDN has said, there are many sins.I have commited adultry and am forgiven. Had I commited an act of prostitution and asked for forgiveness, I would also be forgiven.0 -
Ps. There is no such thing as a stupid question!!
Though there are loadsa stupid answers:rolleyes:0 -
Hmm..yeah it's interesting about this idea of forgiveness but does God really forgive ALL those who repent? I mean if Hitler really felt sorry for all he did (I know he wouldn't have) than would God forgive him?0
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Killaqueen!!! wrote: »Hmm..yeah it's interesting about this idea of forgiveness but does God really forgive ALL those who repent? I mean if Hitler really felt sorry for all he did (I know he wouldn't have) than would God forgive him?
I believe so. There is no limit to the power of God's grace and forgiveness.0 -
This is something that has always not made sense to me.I believe so. There is no limit to the power of God's grace and forgiveness.
What if the people he killed didn't forgive him (or if he didn't even seek their forgiveness)?
Are you guys saying that the only forgiveness that actually matters is God's forgiveness?
To me God's forgiveness is largely irrelevant, because what Hitler (or Pol Pot, or Stalin) did wasn't too God, it was too his fellow humans. Since God is always going to forgive someone anyway it seems rather pointless.0 -
What if the people he killed didn't forgive him (or if he didn't even seek their forgiveness)?
Are you guys saying that the only forgiveness that actually matters is God's forgiveness?
If you look to the Lord's prayer. We say "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us".
The common policy is "Forgive that you may be forgiven". These people have sinned against the Lord in not forgiving the wrongs that people have done against them. Even murder, that seems incredibly difficult huh? That's why Pope John Paul II went to see the man who tried to assassinate him in jail. To reconcile his feelings and offer forgiveness.0 -
This is something that has always not made sense to me.
What if the people he killed didn't forgive him (or if he didn't even seek their forgiveness)?
Are you guys saying that the only forgiveness that actually matters is God's forgiveness?
To me God's forgiveness is largely irrelevant, because what Hitler (or Pol Pot, or Stalin) did wasn't too God, it was too his fellow humans. Since God is always going to forgive someone anyway it seems rather pointless.
Other people's forgiveness matters - but more for themselves than for the one that they are forgiving. If I refuse to forgive someone then it will eat away inside me like a cancer - but it won't make a blind bit of difference to the person towards whom my bitterness is directed.
I don't believe God's forgiveness is automatic. The New Testament says that repentance brings forgiveness. Forgiveness is certainly available to all - but not everybody avails of it.0 -
Other people's forgiveness matters - but more for themselves than for the one that they are forgiving.
Then why do people go asking God's forgiveness if it doesn't matter?
In fact, why do people go asking God's forgiveness instead of seeking forgiveness from the people they actually hurt?
It makes no sense. God's forgiveness is irrelevant. It is the people you have harmed that you should seek forgiveness from.0 -
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If you look to the Lord's prayer. We say "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us".
The common policy is "Forgive that you may be forgiven". These people have sinned against the Lord in not forgiving the wrongs that people have done against them. Even murder, that seems incredibly difficult huh? That's why Pope John Paul II went to see the man who tried to assassinate him in jail. To reconcile his feelings and offer forgiveness.
Sorry I'm not following this at all.
Hitler, genuinely sorry for what he did, goes not to the people who he hurt, but to God and asks not the people he hurt for forgiveness, but asks God.
God says he forgives him.
And everyone else is supposed to automatically forgive him too, despite Hitler not actually seeking their forgiveness?
That system doesn't make sense. Why doesn't Hitler seek forgiveness for the people he hurt? God forgiving him is irrelevant. If humans are expected to automatically forgive someone then God would definitely automatically forgive someone. Therefore asking for God's forgiveness doesn't mean anything.0 -
This is something that has always not made sense to me.
What if the people he killed didn't forgive him (or if he didn't even seek their forgiveness)?
Are you guys saying that the only forgiveness that actually matters is God's forgiveness?
To me God's forgiveness is largely irrelevant, because what Hitler (or Pol Pot, or Stalin) did wasn't too God, it was too his fellow humans. Since God is always going to forgive someone anyway it seems rather pointless.
A sin against anyone is also a sin against God. He loves us all and He feels the pain of every sin.0 -
Sorry I'm not following this at all.
Hitler, genuinely sorry for what he did, goes not to the people who he hurt, but to God and asks not the people he hurt for forgiveness, but asks God.
God says he forgives him.
And everyone else is supposed to automatically forgive him too, despite Hitler not actually seeking their forgiveness?
That system doesn't make sense. Why doesn't Hitler seek forgiveness for the people he hurt? God forgiving him is irrelevant. If humans are expected to automatically forgive someone then God would definitely automatically forgive someone. Therefore asking for God's forgiveness doesn't mean anything.
If someone in Hitlers position sought forgiveness I'm sure he would go to both the victims and God.0 -
I said other people. God's forgiveness matters very much.Then why do people go asking God's forgiveness if it doesn't matter?
Think of it this way. If my daughter was caught bullying another child when she was younger then I might withhold some privileges from her. I would expect her to say she was sorry to the other child concerned, but it would be my forgiveness that would have the most impact on her life.In fact, why do people go asking God's forgiveness instead of seeking forgiveness from the people they actually hurt?
It makes no sense. God's forgiveness is irrelevant. It is the people you have harmed that you should seek forgiveness from.
They (or we) should do both. Sin is an offence against God as well as against other people. To return to the (admittedly imperfect) analogy of my daughter's (purely hypothetical) bullying - she should ask my forgiveness for her failure to observe the values and standards I taught her.0 -
Prostitution in Scripture can also be used as a language metaphor to talk about how Israel turned its back on God, and stuff to that affect but it can also mean sex for money. Jesus was pretty accepting of everyone and he put down their sins and not so much the person.
When St Paul tells the women to cover their heads he does so because the women in that community who were found to be prostitute had their heads shaved so that it would be known by everyone and so the prostitues would cover their heads with a veil. He told women who were Christians to cover their heads as this "name and shame" policy was unethical and would allow these women to have comfort from scorn and abuse. This shows a kind hearted simpathy towards their suitation. Sure there are places in the Old Testament that dont look to favourably on it but this shows us how to view the act but St Paul shows us how to view the person.
I think God allows for many avenues of his forgivness to reach people and not all are known to us. All we can say is he is forgiving how forgivness comes about can be different for different people (possibily, im not God so I dont know the method). But as others have illustrated we do know how we can accept forgivness. Hitler is perhaps a victum of his own actions aswell (dont shoot me but St Agustine tells us to look on the devil with pity). Modern thought on hell is akin to a mental state of suffering (like depression etc) which im sure he was in when he commited suicide. But again I dont know but Im sure we ll find out.
I heard a guy on the radio talk about his near death experience. He was clinically dead for a few mins before he was revived. He said that what happened to him was he felt all the suffering he had caused esp as a soldier in Vietnam he became those he hurt and saw himself shooting people in the war but he saw it through their eyes and felt the pain and grief. Dont know if thats relevant but stuck it in.0 -
Well no offense PDN but if that is what you teach your daughter I would be quite disappointed.Think of it this way. If my daughter was caught bullying another child when she was younger then I might withhold some privileges from her. I would expect her to say she was sorry to the other child concerned, but it would be my forgiveness that would have the most impact on her life.
Using your above analogy, what you guys are saying is that if you daughter spends he time bullying a girl in her school, the most important thing is that she gets your forgiveness for this, not the forgiveness of the girls she actually hurt. If you forgive her she is forgiven. It would be nice of course if she tried if possible to apologise to the girls themselves, but this is not as important as your forgiveness.
From an atheist position I can certainly see why your religion would set things up like that (it seems to be a way to relieve guilt without actually having to do anything), but I must say I find no merit in it
But anyway, I've dragged this thread off topic. I was simply hoping for an answer that didn't confirm my negative view of this issue.0 -
Wicknight wrote:Hitler, genuinely sorry for what he did, goes not to the people who he hurt, but to God and asks not the people he hurt for forgiveness, but asks God.
That isn't the point at all. Infact in the Gospels, Jesus tells us how we should deal with those who have sinned against us. However this is in relation to who has sinned against us from the Christian community, for those outside we have to let the Lord judge them. The responsibility of forgiveness lies with you, if you want to be forgiven for your own iniquities.Matthew 18:15-16 wrote:If another member of the church sins against you, go and point out the fault when the two of you are alone.If the member listened to you, you have regained that one. But if you are not listened to take one or two others along with you, so that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses.Wicknight wrote:And everyone else is supposed to automatically forgive him too, despite Hitler not actually seeking their forgiveness?
Everyone is supposed to forgive him / her and to recognize that the Lord should have a role in setting things right, and if not the judgement will lie upon him / her.Wicknight wrote:God forgiving him is irrelevant. If humans are expected to automatically forgive someone then God would definitely automatically forgive someone. Therefore asking for God's forgiveness doesn't mean anything.
Humans are meant to attempt to forgive people so that they may recognize their fault with the Lord and put it right. God has created all things, and he is the one who will ultimately determine ones fate dependent on their actions. God's forgiveness in that context is very relevant.0 -
Well no offense PDN but if that is what you teach your daughter I would be quite disappointed.
Using your above analogy, what you guys are saying is that if you daughter spends he time bullying a girl in her school, the most important thing is that she gets your forgiveness for this, not the forgiveness of the girls she actually hurt. If you forgive her she is forgiven. It would be nice of course if she tried if possible to apologise to the girls themselves, but this is not as important as your forgiveness.
From an atheist position I can certainly see why your religion would set things up like that (it seems to be a way to relieve guilt without actually having to do anything), but I must say I find no merit in it
But anyway, I've dragged this thread off topic. I was simply hoping for an answer that didn't confirm my negative view of this issue.
Have you completely missed the point again?
EVERY sin committed is a sin against God. Do you understand this? If so we can continue.0 -
Using your above analogy, what you guys are saying is that if you daughter spends he time bullying a girl in her school, the most important thing is that she gets your forgiveness for this, not the forgiveness of the girls she actually hurt. If you forgive her she is forgiven. It would be nice of course if she tried if possible to apologise to the girls themselves, but this is not as important as your forgiveness.
Right. if the parent said absolutely keep beating the girl up. The child is likely to do it again.
If the parent disciplines the child and the child ends up apologising both to the girl and the parent's the lesson is learnt.
It's the same reason why if someone murders your child, you have no right to take vigilante rules and beat the lard out of him with a crowbar. That's not acceptable. The government who keep the law have the police force for this. However God gave us the Law of Christianity, and thus He has the authority to govern over it, not us. We cannot act as if we are God.0 -
Using your above analogy, what you guys are saying is that if you daughter spends he time bullying a girl in her school, the most important thing is that she gets your forgiveness for this, not the forgiveness of the girls she actually hurt. If you forgive her she is forgiven. It would be nice of course if she tried if possible to apologise to the girls themselves, but this is not as important as your forgiveness.
I think you know very well what I was saying but have chosen to twist it to put the most negative spin you can on it.
I did not say the most important thing is whether she gets my forgiveness or not. I said that is the issue that will have the most impact on her life, because it is my displeasure that is causing her negative consequences.
Actually Christians are taught, upon conversion, that they should, where at all possible, make restitution to those that they have wronged.From an atheist position I can certainly see why your religion would set things up like that (it seems to be a way to relieve guilt without actually having to do anything), but I must say I find no merit in it
However, no doubt you will find a way to view that so it has no merit.0 -
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I think you know very well what I was saying but have chosen to twist it to put the most negative spin you can on it.
I did not say the most important thing is whether she gets my forgiveness or not. I said that is the issue that will have the most impact on her life, because it is my displeasure that is causing her negative consequences.
Come on PDN :rolleyes: It is not the most important thing, it just has the most impact on her life. What does that mean? How are you judging "important" And in your analogy you are equating yourself with God, so you are now saying that you God's forgiveness is not the most important thing, which a few minutes ago you were saying the opposite.
I know exactly what you are trying to say, you are trying to put this doctrine in a good light so it doesn't just look like an way for Christians to stop feeling guilty about things they have done to other people because the voice in their head that they interpret as God has told them that they are forgiven. I'm saying that that has no merit, even if it is actually God
Why would God tell anyone that they are forgiven for anything unless the person that they actually hurt forgave them? At the very most God should simply pass on that message.Actually Christians are taught, upon conversion, that they should, where at all possible, make restitution to those that they have wronged.
However, no doubt you will find a way to view that so it has no merit.
Oh don't worry I certainly can.
Let me ask you, at what point in that above are they "forgiven" Are they forgiven upon conversion or are they forgiven when the restitution is accepted by those they have wronged?
If they never get a chance to provide this restitution are they still forgiven?0 -
[/quote]BrianCalgary wrote: »Have you completely missed the point again?
EVERY sin committed is a sin against God. Do you understand this? If so we can continue.
Oh I understand it BC.
Every sin is a sin committed against God. Which means God is where you go for forgiveness for what you have done wrong. Which is kinda handy because God is always there in your head and will always forgive you. Convenient, no?
Do you know anyone who has ever "gone to God" and God has said "No, actually I'm not forgiving you today? Come back tomorrow"
I've been asked many times on this forum why I reject God, do I not want to be forgiven for my sins.
I must say, in all honesty, I find this system completely without merit, and its very hard to see it as anything other than an easy way to relieve one's own guilt about things that are actually difficult to seek real forgiveness for.
Its all very well for you guys to say that after conversion a Christian is supposed to go out and make mends for what they have done, but I'm pretty sure this is done with a rather smug absence of guilt on the part of the Christian because to them they have already been forgiven for what they have done. And if it doesn't happen its not going to make the person feel any less forgiven.
And none of what you guys are telling me is convincing me otherwise.
But as I said, this thread is going way off topic.0 -
Right. if the parent said absolutely keep beating the girl up. The child is likely to do it again.
If the parent disciplines the child and the child ends up apologising both to the girl and the parent's the lesson is learnt.
It's the same reason why if someone murders your child, you have no right to take vigilante rules and beat the lard out of him with a crowbar. That's not acceptable. The government who keep the law have the police force for this. However God gave us the Law of Christianity, and thus He has the authority to govern over it, not us. We cannot act as if we are God.
Yes Jakkass but if you rape someone you don't go to the judge and say "Please forgive me"
And you don't feel better if the judge goes "Ok, I forgive you" (or at least you shouldn't)
The only person who can actually forgive you is the person you raped.
What you guys are basically saying that anything bad done is a crime not only to the person you did it to, but also, more importantly, to God. So God can actually forgive you for what you have done to other people.
As I said I find no merit in that, though I do understand why it would be attractive proposition to people.0 -
Come on PDN :rolleyes: It is not the most important thing, it just has the most impact on her life. What does that mean? How are you judging "important" And in your analogy you are equating yourself with God, so you are now saying that you God's forgiveness is not the most important thing, which a few minutes ago you were saying the opposite.
Do you want to discuss the analogy or discuss God's forgiveness? I said at the beginning that the analogy was imperfect, so pressing the details to try to insult my parenting methods, then to try to bring it back to God again, is just a cheap way of scoring points. Do you want to really understand what Christians believe, or do you just want a fight? If it is the former then please ask questions. If it is the latter then please stop trolling.
On the unlikely (but theoretically possible) assumption that you genuinely want to understand what Christians believe, and that you really want to understand what I am saying rather than just seeking for a phrase you can distort - let me explain:
1. If you want to talk about human parenting, my forgiveness of my daughter will have more impact on her life. If I have removed privileges from her due to her bullying, then those privileges will not be restored until I have forgiven her, irrespective of whether her victim has forgiven her or not. Therefore it is perfectly correct to say that my forgiveness has more impact on her life. Does that mean it is more important (in a moral sense)? Not necessarily.
2. This is because I am a fallible human being and, as with any human being, my understanding of morality and fairness is distorted by sin. If I glibly forgive my daughter, and restore her privileges, while another child is left suicidal and my daughter is unrepentant, then I would think my forgiveness is not as important, morally as that of the victim.I know exactly what you are trying to say, you are trying to put this doctrine in a good light so it doesn't just look like an way for Christians to stop feeling guilty about things they have done to other people because the voice in their head that they interpret as God has told them that they are forgiven. I'm saying that that has no merit, even if it is actually God
Nonsense. It is right for people to repent if they wrong others. However, spending a lifetime condemning yourself for what you may have done is neither productive nor healthy. Repentance means making a 180 degree turn around. It is not just about absolving feelings of guilt, but about altering your life so you don't repeat the wrong actions. It also involves, where possible, making restitution. This is healthy and a positive factor in society.
The fact that someone wrongs you does not give you the right to decide how guilty they should feel or what penalties they should suffer. That concept is one of revenge, not of justice.Why would God tell anyone that they are forgiven for anything unless the person that they actually hurt forgave them? At the very most God should simply pass on that message.
Imagine two teenagers each steal a purse in a market place. One theft is perpetrated against a saintly woman of a forgiving disposition, while the other is against a bitter crone who knows how to nurse a grudge. The first victim, being soft hearted, instantly forgives the thief. The second victim determines that she will hate the thief for the rest of her life and fervently hopes he will get sick and die of cancer.
Both thieves are caught and brought to justice. Consider the following.
a) Should they receive similar sentences? Or should the second thief receive a harsher sentence because his victim has not forgiven him?
b) After the sentences are served, should the thieves spend the rest of their lives feeling guilty about what they did? Also, should the first thief feel less guilty because his victim forgave him?
Our justice system operates on the principle that the offender should make some form of restitution to the victim, but also that the offender must pay a penalty for offending against the laws of the State. It is for the State, not the victim, to determine when the offender has paid his debt to society and can be released. The nursing of a grudge by a victim against a repentant offender should not hinder the rehabilitation of the offender. If the offender has served his sentence and has genuinely changed, then he is entitled to begin building his new life without feeling that the victim forever has some hold over him. The most important factor, for him, is that the State has pardoned him - not that a bitter old bag insists on nursing a grudge.
Of course other factors come into play, such as the severity of the offence committed, the degree of hurt caused to the victim, the genuineness of the offender's repentance, the likelihood of reoffending etc. etc. This means that the One with the most important authority to forgive would need infinite wisdom, mercy, and justice to truly make a correct decision - I wonder which entity fits the bill in these respects?Let me ask you, at what point in that above are they "forgiven" Are they forgiven upon conversion or are they forgiven when the restitution is accepted by those they have wronged?
If they never get a chance to provide this restitution are they still forgiven?
I believe that they are forgiven on conversion, for if the conversion is genuine then restitution will follow as sure as day follows night. The victims of their sin will not, IMHO, be allowed to operate a veto on whether God forgives someone or not.
When I received Christ as my Saviour I went and tried to make restitution to those I had wronged. Some forgave me (the owner of an electrical store shook my hand, said he was delighted I had changed, and refused to accept my offer of payment for the TV I had stolen). Some exacted vengeance (a paramilitary leader beat me to a pulp because I admitted I had robbed him). Some never forgave me (a member of my family still hates me for what I did). While some of these experiences were more painful than others, I do not believe any of them determine whether God has forgiven me or not. What was important was that I sincerely attempted to put things right - not how others chose to respond to those attempts.
An example of someone who never had the chance to make restitution would be the thief who was crucified alongside Jesus. He was forgiven.
So how do we determine whether a professed conversion is real (producing repentance and restitution) or false (a selfish attempt to wriggle off the hook)? We can't. That is why forgiveness should be the prerogative of One who can see the heart and not just the outward appearance.0 -
Yes Jakkass but if you rape someone you don't go to the judge and say "Please forgive me"
And you don't feel better if the judge goes "Ok, I forgive you" (or at least you shouldn't)
The only person who can actually forgive you is the person you raped.
What you guys are basically saying that anything bad done is a crime not only to the person you did it to, but also, more importantly, to God. So God can actually forgive you for what you have done to other people.
As I said I find no merit in that, though I do understand why it would be attractive proposition to people.
That isn't what it's about either Wicknight. The idea behind it is, after you have been forgiven, you try and work harder to follow. It's not an invitation to sin again. I believe that every time you fall and if you commit yourself to work harder next time, the closer you will get to being correct in God's sight. That is why he offers us His mercy. Surely you should be ashamed of your actions, but it should motivate you not to do it again next time.0 -
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Somebody said earlier that you repent your sins on the intention that you won't (or rather don't want to) sin anymore in the future. What if you continue to sin but ask for God's forgivenessnear the end of your life?
Bit of a pointless hypothetical question but just wondering...0 -
If you are truly sorry and believe yes you will be forgiven, according to the Bible.
Consider the Parable of the Labourers in the Vineyard (Matthew 20) for a description of this.0 -
Killaqueen!!! wrote: »Somebody said earlier that you repent your sins on the intention that you won't (or rather don't want to) sin anymore in the future. What if you continue to sin but ask for God's forgivenessnear the end of your life?
Since most of us don't know how long we will live - that sounds a pretty high risk strategy.0 -
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I'd also question anyone's ability to seriously and meaningfully repent on demand at a future date. Surely repentance is a feeling and an action based in the present (you do something wrong and make amends), not something you put off for the end of your life. I'm sure this is a concept equally familiar to believer and non-believers alike.0
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