boxing,kickboxing,mma

Rossibaby

hey guys,just want on an opinion on these 3 sports.there are classes in all of them where i live with mma a fairly recent addition.i have friends in all codes. i was just wondering since i have taken up boxing now for 2 months and the guys in mma and kickboxing reckon their sport is far superior and would destroy a normal boxer...any thoughts

Fozzy

In an MMA or kickboxing match, chances are they would. In a boxing match, probably not

cowzerp

Boxing will beat kick boxing the majority of the time,kicking is not a great weapon when punches are been thrown, boxers regularly beat kickboxers in kickboxing tournaments and a number of kickboxing coaches have told me that good hands will beat good kicks any day, mma will beat both majority of time, simply because boxers and kickboxers dont train to fight on the ground, or to defend takedowns. i have trained all so am speaking from my experiences.

Fozzy wrote: »

In an MMA or kickboxing match, chances are they would. In a boxing match, probably not

definetly not

bobtjustice

Most probably MMA, just out of the sheer variance of the sport. Its hard to say one or the other would win outright.
Boxers would have the edge in sheer striking ability though.

Look at it this way, it only takes one punch in the right area to put someone down.

Rossibaby

thx guys.so which would be the best form of self defence.im sticking to the boxing myself,just think the sport is better.i'm not a huge fan of these mma and ufc types,usually say its for girls when guys claim its better than boxing.not a chance imo

Dawei

I really think it depends on the person, how you train and how the trainer trains you

cowzerp

Most street fights are scummers swinging arms wildly so boxing would be the best at beating this, mma is great but i would not go to ground unless it was my last option in the street for obvious reasons-kicking will also get you put on your hole easier so avoid if your hands are up to it! boxing best for me.

if it goes to ground, bjj, mma, judo, or even greco roman wrestling-all win easily..

Fozzy

cowzerp wrote: »

but i would not go to ground unless it was my last option in the street for obvious reasons

What if you're taken down and you have no choice in the matter? Some sort of takedown defence would aid you in keeping it standing, but boxing won't cover that

bobtjustice

cowzerp wrote: »

Most street fights are scummers swinging arms wildly so boxing would be the best at beating this, mma is great but i would not go to ground unless it was my last option in the street for obvious reasons-kicking will also get you put on your hole easier so avoid if your hands are up to it! boxing best for me.

Yeap I agree. Brazilian Ju Jitsu is lethal if it goes to ground, but I'd prefer to have a boxing back ground in a street fight. Like I was saying boxers know how to strike so generally you could put some one down quite quickly in a street fight when some lunatic is swinging wildly.

bobtjustice

whoops that quote didn't work out right but you get what im saying

cowzerp

Fozzy wrote: »

What if you're taken down and you have no choice in the matter? Some sort of takedown defence would aid you in keeping it standing, but boxing won't cover that

Thats why i train bjj, judo and also muay thai!! there is always another what if!!! in most cases good old boxing does the trick!
remember street fighters are not trained mma fighters! or if they where they would not be welcome in my club.

Nothingcompares

Rossibaby wrote: »

i'm not a huge fan of these mma and ufc types,usually say its for girls when guys claim its better than boxing.not a chance imo

What are you talking about? What MMA types? Do you know anyone in a MMA club? Have you sparred any? Saying it's for girls? Does that make it better or worse than saying it's for boys? Better than boxing? Better at what? You sound like the type of eejit that thinks mma is claiming to be better at boxing than boxing is, it's not, MMA is better at MMA and boxing is better at boxing. All MMA guys train in boxing at least at some level. In a MMA fight boxers get beaten time and time again, what further proof do you need?

Roper

training in any one of these things is not half as much fun as arguing over which one is better.

I like taejwondo and I will come round your manor and kick all of your areses!!

paddyc

cowzer


where do you train thai out of interest...

.. in you thai training have you never got a good kick along the legs... enough to stop you in your tracks....

I mean by that you always say that boxer foot work will allow him to be victorious... but corerect me if i am wrong u fought a scottish thai boxer and he slapped your legs a few times and it looked to me and i might be worng that you didnt know how to handle the kicking side of it.....

I have a few boxers in your place and we love training with them cos teep and kick will keep him out and grab and knee will punish him if he get in close... a bit like paper scissors rock......

any thoughts on that paul?

cheers paddy

druss666

alright lads hows it going im a boxer first and formost but i think bjj is the most effective form of street self defence on a one on one basis if the other guy doesnt know bjj hes done for its to late before he knows wats happening if its more then one person you should keep it standing because you dont wanna get you head stood on as regards to stand up i think boxing is prob the best its all bout how good the other fella is at his art and as for fighting in genarel you get the best kickboxer boxer thai boxing street fighter and mma fighters in the world the and let them fight each other the the mma fighter wins

the best [fighter] in the world is an mma fighter full stop

RearNakedJim

cowzerp wrote: »

Most street fights are scummers swinging arms wildly so boxing would be the best at beating this, mma is great but i would not go to ground unless it was my last option in the street for obvious reasons-kicking will also get you put on your hole easier so avoid if your hands are up to it! boxing best for me.

Paul you have done/are doing mma, yet here you are saying that boxing is best for beating "scummers" on the street. Personally i believe for self defense (if thats what your worried about) you need to have knowledge of all 3 ranges as on "the street" you rarely get to dictate where a fight happens. I have highlighted where you say you wouldnt go to the ground but surely your mma training allows you to stay on your feet better?? are you more equiped now that you do mma to protect yourself than you where when you just boxed?

Roper

Paddy,

It's Rock Paper Scissor ya tit, not Paper Scissors Rock.

Just letting you know.

Barry
(thats for calling me Sonya, didn't know who she was but I googled her)

Colm_OReilly

I have a few boxers in your place and we love training with them cos teep and kick will keep him out and grab and knee will punish him if he get in close... a bit like paper scissors rock......

Nothing beats Rock!

i'm not a huge fan of these mma and ufc types,usually say its for girls when guys claim its better than boxing.not a chance imo

Can you please explain this?

cowzerp

paddyc wrote: »

.. in you thai training have you never got a good kick along the legs... enough to stop you in your tracks....

I mean by that you always say that boxer foot work will allow him to be victorious... but corerect me if i am wrong u fought a scottish thai boxer and he slapped your legs a few times and it looked to me and i might be worng that you didnt know how to handle the kicking side of it.....

I have a few boxers in your place and we love training with them cos teep and kick will keep him out and grab and knee will punish him if he get in close... a bit like paper scissors rock......

any thoughts on that paul?

cheers paddy

Thanks for reminding me of this, i was fighting a top fella, hung over and over my fighting weight and in my 1st pro mma fight on 1 days notice, i dont drink for months before fights usually, normally i deal with kicks by DANCING or counter punching!

i was as slow as anything that day and not moving out of the way-also at the time i'd never trained thai, only kickboxing, i've trained thai in sbg and also private lessons on occasion, this has nothing to do with the question asked as that was not a street fight anyway.

maybe you should try mma and see how you get on against a new style of fighter?? i lost to a champion mma fighter, not a thai fighter while still nearly a novice! all part of my learning might lose to kicks again?? but i lost by choke anyway.

ps. paddy correct me if im wrong-where you not knocked out by a boxer a few years back on sky sports, jaw broke aswell? Does this mean boxing is better? not necessarilly, this is pointless and not about street fight defense.
Cheers Paul

joeythelips

cowzerp wrote: »

Thanks for reminding me of this, i was fighting a top fella, hung over and over my fighting weight and in my 1st pro mma fight on 1 days notice, i dont drink for months before fights usually, normally i deal with kicks by DANCING or counter punching! i was as slow as anything that day and not moving out of the way-also at the time i'd never trained thai, only kickboxing, i've trained thai in sbg and also private lessons on occasion, this has nothing to do with the question asked as that was not a street fight anyway-maybe i should look up some of your losses so i can remind you how you lost. maybe you should try mma and see how you get on against a new style of fighter?? i lost to a champion mma fighter, not a thai fighter while still nearly a novice! all part of my learning might lose to kicks again?? but i lost by choke anyway.

I remenber watching this fight,and they were big chops on your legs, you were in a boxing stance and your left leg was so easy to hit.if im right after two leg kicks you tried to step around to your left and walked on to a big chop,the fight did go to the ground but to be honest mate i dont think you would have took to many more leg kicks.

no shame in that james doolin is a really good thai boxer and i do remenber ian freeman saying you took it on a days notice fairplay man.

druss666

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

Nothing beats Rock!



Nothing beats Rock ever lol

www.spartanmma.com aru aru aru spartan

cowzerp

joeythelips wrote: »

I remenber watching this fight,and they were big chops on your legs, you were in a boxing stance and your left leg was so easy to hit.if im right after two leg kicks you tried to step around to your left and walked on to a big chop,the fight did go to the ground but to be honest mate i dont think you would have took to many more leg kicks.

no shame in that james doolin is a really good thai boxer and i do remenber ian freeman saying you took it on a days notice fairplay man.

True, but i'm not that easy to kick when im sharp, or not hung over! i swear on the boxing stance, its best for punching and footwork-i did not use footwork and thats what my problem was.
i've only ever fought 1 other lad who caught me well with kicks and that was because they where south paw kicks and i'd never experienced this till i'd took a couple, then i changed my movement to suit, the kicks hurt more later than at the time also. anyway this is off topic as it was not a topic on who cowzerp can beat etc or about muay thai either, it was about kickboxing, totally different!!

Khannie

cowzerp wrote: »

i swear on the boxing stance

The boxing stance is best for boxing. Thai stance best for thai, etc.

Kicks to the leading leg are basically unavoidable if you have any kind of stance that is similar to the thai / boxing stance. It's bread and butter stuff for a thai fighter.

Fair play for taking a fight on a days notice. Ballsy.

cowzerp

Khannie wrote: »

The boxing stance is best for boxing. Thai stance best for thai, etc.

Kicks to the leading leg are basically unavoidable if you have any kind of stance that is similar to the thai / boxing stance. It's bread and butter stuff for a thai fighter..

See thais stand in a position to take kicks, boxing stance is more used to avoid kicks through footwork, thai boxers are way more static than boxers because this, thats fine in thai because they generally stand toe to toe-boxers move about more-i've tried both and get hit more in the thai stance-thats what im basing my opinion on. also boxing seriously suffers in the thai stance.

RedRaven

Khannie wrote: »

The boxing stance is best for boxing. Thai stance best for thai, etc.

Kicks to the leading leg are basically unavoidable if you have any kind of stance that is similar to the thai / boxing stance.

Not completely true...There are very rangy Thai boxers out there who are very skilled on distance fighting and are very quick to move in when the opponent has thrown a kick and missed to conter strike Its the ebb and flow effect...

cowzerp

RedRaven wrote: »

Not completely true...There are very rangy Thai boxers out there who are very skilled on distance fighting and are very quick to move in when the opponent has thrown a kick and missed to conter strike Its the ebb and flow effect...

Agree with this totally. but they would not be typical thai boxers and probably more hybrid boxer/thai boxer types and would be typical to western thai boxers more so. best type as it uses best of both worlds! Thai is great by the way so im not knocking it at all.

RedRaven

cowzerp wrote: »

See thais stand in a position to take kicks, QUOTE]

I have a different view on this Lad.....Try to think when you are sparring and when your opponent throws a leg kick you dont block it...you attack their shin with your knee, thats why the knee is angled and pointed to be as damaging to your opponents shin...believe me a proper counter crush with a knee will devistate an opponents shin and also dent their confidence when throwing kick.

This I suppose it is a very Thai perspective as My first teacher was Thai and my current teacher also learned from a Thai.

cowzerp

RedRaven wrote: »

cowzerp wrote: »

See thais stand in a position to take kicks, QUOTE]

I have a different view on this Lad.....Try to think when you are sparring and when your opponent throws a leg kick you dont block it...you attack their shin with your knee, thats why the knee is angled and pointed to be as damaging to your opponents shin...believe me a proper counter crush with a knee will devistate an opponents shin and also dent their confidence when throwing kick.

This I suppose it is a very Thai perspective as My first teacher was Thai and my current teacher also learned from a Thai.

Just another tactic that can be used, i have on occasion but it can cause damage to the knee, swelling etc..i prefer beating them to the kick by kicking myself or punching, or making them miss, all work if your capable!

Colm_OReilly

boxing stance is more used to avoid kicks through footwork/QUOTE]

No it's not. A boxing stance is used because it's been found to be the more useful for boxing. In boxing avoiding kicks is not a consideration. That's akin to saying the pass in GAA is useful for offloading before a tackle in International Rules. It's not. It evolved due to the ruleset, like everything else in any sport.

Khannie

RedRaven wrote: »

a proper counter crush with a knee will devistate an opponents shin and also dent their confidence when throwing kick.

Definitely. So f*cking ouchies when your shin hits someones pointed knee at speed. In general though, there is a trade of blows to the thigh at some point.

cowzerp

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

boxing stance is more used to avoid kicks through footwork/QUOTE]

No it's not. A boxing stance is used because it's been found to be the more useful for boxing. In boxing avoiding kicks is not a consideration. That's akin to saying the pass in GAA is useful for offloading before a tackle in International Rules. It's not. It evolved due to the ruleset, like everything else in any sport.

O'k i'll re-phrase it, a boxing stance is better in my opinion because it allows more freedom in footwork(allowing me to dodge kicks easier)my prefered defense against kicks and speed of feet and punch power. does that explain what i meant better, im talking about my style of fighting, i dont fight like a thai boxer.

paddyc

paul

i was never havin a go at you fightin... just wanting you to see that a kick is longer than an arm and so in my opinion a kicker will alway be able to out manaouver a puncher... thats all. you fight was a lad from a boxing back ground fiting a lad from a thai back ground... thats my point...


I would be interested to see how a good boxer would cope against a good thai boxer in this country... I have seen it many times in europe and japan and rarely do i see a boxer coming out on top...

maybe you should try mma and see how you get on against a new style of fighter??

no maybe i shouldnt... If i want a kicking i'd go into town get pissed and wait at the night link queue abusing people... far less training involved in that

ps. paddy correct me if im wrong-where you not knocked out by a boxer a few years back on sky sports

your wrong the lad that knocked me out was the english thai boxing champion at the time.. I dont make excuses about fights he done me fair and square and it was his left shin on my right cheek that done it not a punch

jaw broke aswell

yup your got it right here, an albow in the face while i lay on the ground from some nut job...

Im sure there on youtube for all to see...


I dont think its a pointless arguement at all I think its quite valid I would like to see in this country where a boxer of equal level could beat a thai boxer... some one said in aearlier thread that thais stand there and kick each other sin the legs... whata a load of cock....

...if people understood thai they would know this is ****e tong po maybe done it but not thai boxers... perhaps in the first round they feel around with kicks and if the betting dictates that they have to stand toe to toe and kick then they will because theres loads of bhat on who lands the next kick and even what leg it will be thrown with well then they might but not a general rule...

look at some of the super europeans there are at the minute... dimitri shakuta fro example even our own jamie crawford and shane cadagon... these lads dont stand toe to toe cos they now it dont work... they got super foot work and deserve credit for it too... perhaps 2 novices will stand and boot each other but thats cos they dont know what to do....

I dont mind arguemenst when they valid and researched but some of the guff that i read on here gives me an awful pain in the stones



okay rant over

Khannie

paddyc wrote: »

yup your got it right here, an albow in the face while i lay on the ground from some nut job...

:eek: Sneaky c*nt. Was that a spectator?

paddyc wrote: »

Im sure there on youtube for all to see...

I couldn't find anything. I know you have them all bookmarked, so share the links there paddy.

cowzerp

paddyc wrote: »

paul

i was never havin a go at you fightin...

I would be interested to see how a good boxer would cope against a good thai boxer in this country... I have seen it many times in europe and japan and rarely do i see a boxer coming out on top...
okay rant over

Paddy, Maybe you where not having a go but i thought it was a bit personal and not helpful to the debate, when you talk about boxers fighting in europe and japan you've got to be honest and say there never at there best and usually low standard boxers anyway.

you only have to look at the ufc and most mma fighters there use boxing more than kicking even though they all train both, we're never going to see them pair up on a par because the top boxers are payed way more than the top thai boxers!

Kicking is great, i enjoy it-and its the most important part of muay thai, i go to the shows in the stadium and always notice how the thai boxer losing usually change to regular boxing and start to dominate then revert back to what they have too to get the decision-last point. why is this?

you mentioned how the top europeans have good footwork, i would ask is this because the western influences! change is not a well known thing in thai and thats why its still quite traditional, personally i think it could be improved on in many ways just like boxing has been over the decades, and mma is at the moment, if it works use it.

i welcome debate but dont appreciate personal digs. Peace.

ps, the topic is not about muay thai, its about boxing mma and kickboxing..

Khannie

cowzerp wrote: »

Kicking is great, i enjoy it-and its the most important part of muay thai, i go to the shows in the stadium and always notice how the thai boxer losing usually change to regular boxing and start to dominate then revert back to what they have too to get the decision-last point. why is this?

Missed this earlier. I'll take a stab at this one: First off, it's a generalisation, and not accurate IMO. Anyway, to answer the question: It's easiest to revert to boxing if you're banjaxed or if your kicks are being caught (these are two big reasons for a fighter to be losing a bout). It's bread and butter stuff. 1,2. 1,2. You know yourself.

If you're tired, your legs aren't gonna be up to the task of successfully striking someone. They're gonna see it coming and put you on your ass.

It's more natural (in general) to hit with your fists than your shins. Yeah, MT scoring scores kicks more highly, but a fighter who dominates with their fists will still win the bout.

Having said _all_ of that....if I felt an opponent (in the ring) wasn't going to use kicks against me, I would absolutely open up with kicks myself. As has been pointed out earlier, legs are longer than arms. Even a teap will keep away the longest arms.

I'm babysitting and bored....and knackered.....hitting the hay.

Merry Christmas everyone.

Edit: like Paddy, I'd absolutely love to see a good boxer against a good Thai boxer. I think that would be a great match up.

Dawei

Paddyc. What is the name of the video on youtube, the one that you got knocked out

Dylan Scally

i'll take that challenge paddy at 95kg, boxer v thai, since i'm only doing boxing now, but none of this amatuer ****, no protective gear.

Fozzy

Dylan Scally wrote: »

i'll take that challenge paddy at 95kg, boxer v thai, since i'm only doing boxing now, but none of this amatuer ****, no protective gear.

Did paddyc make a challenge?

Khannie

Dylan Scally wrote: »

95kg

End of your challenge right there. If there every is such a fight (and I'd say that's very doubtful given the size of the pool of thai fighters in this country), it'll be somewhere between 67 and 75KG I'd say.

cowzerp

Khannie wrote: »

End of your challenge right there. If there every is such a fight (and I'd say that's very doubtful given the size of the pool of thai fighters in this country), it'll be somewhere between 67 and 75KG I'd say.

Why?

Khannie

Because there just aren't that many Thai fighters in Ireland. Even fewer with experience that are currently actively fighting. Honestly, I'm not aware of anyone fighting at the 95KG mark.

For example, just a quick search brings up armageddon 7. Average weight was just 68.75KG. Heaviest was 85KG.

Basically, the majority of Thai fighters will be between 60 and 75KG (my original 67 was probably too high). The pool of currently active "A class" fighters (i.e. those with enough experience to fight full thai rules) is tiny.

edit: Out of interest, what would you propose would be the rules for a contest between a thai boxer and a boxer? Full thai rules? Clinch work allowed? How many rounds? etc.

cowzerp

Khannie wrote: »

Because there just aren't that many Thai fighters in Ireland. Even fewer with experience that are currently actively fighting. Honestly, I'm not aware of anyone fighting at the 95KG mark.

For example, just a quick search brings up armageddon 7. Average weight was just 68.75KG. Heaviest was 85KG.

Basically, the majority of Thai fighters will be between 60 and 75KG (my original 67 was probably too high). The pool of currently active "A class" fighters (i.e. those with enough experience to fight full thai rules) is tiny.

edit: Out of interest, what would you propose would be the rules for a contest between a thai boxer and a boxer? Full thai rules? Clinch work allowed? How many rounds? etc.

I think its pointless as there different sports, but if it was to happen i'd say full a class rules, or k1 rules! whatever was agreed on by both parties, its not as simple as boxing would beat muay thai etc..

different fighters from each code might be better suited to fighting boxing or thai and if you wanted to pick fighters for to prove your point you could pick thai fighters that dont take punches well or boxers who are slow on there feet and easily kicked etc...who ever organised it could easily pick fights where the winner would be obvious.

Boxing people generally dont care for these comparisons anyway and are usually just into boxing, this thread was about boxing, kickboxing and mma and lots of boxers do very well in kickboxing and very few participate in mma. muay thai was not in the question..

bilbo79

Dylan Scally wrote: »

i'll take that challenge paddy at 95kg, boxer v thai, since i'm only doing boxing now, but none of this amatuer ****, no protective gear.

O'k Dylan Scally, sounds like they wont take the fight because they arent guaranteed a win-that seems to be the muay thai way in ireland and how it seems in thailand, i could understand that if there was millions to be made or like in the hard up country like thailand, but with normal joe soaps??? How long are you boxing mr scally?

either way, muay thai is as boring as hell to watch, although i do appreciate there talent. thats why they they dont make money.

Khannie

bilbo79 wrote: »

O'k Dylan Scally, sounds like they wont take the fight because they arent guaranteed a win

:rolleyes: Total flamebait.

Like I said, I don't think there is a single active A class thai fighter at 95KG in Ireland. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

paddyc

your stand corrected paul ( khannie )


theres at least 2 lads i ireland that weight that fight A class thai... I look forward to the day that someone puts this on a show I would love to see it... but i aint promoting it.. I get my own lads fights.

But as paul (cowzerp) says the chance of this happenin are slim to none...

biblo79


anyways enjoy the holidays

Khannie

paddyc wrote: »

theres at least 2 lads i ireland that weight that fight A class thai

Are they active at the moment Paddy?

Would love to see that fight.

Dylan Scally

It would'nt have to be A class rules, just B class rules, no clinch, no elbows. I'd say there's more fighters available at those rules, who's the two A class heavyweights that are fighting? and its a -95kg fight not +95kg fight.