Prime Time Investigates

mike65

A mod might want to move this, tonights programme which is airing now is looking at fuel smuggling. The state is making a tidy sum out of this practice - about 160 million a year. One Northern company saves 12 million year (15 grand a tanker load).

Mike.

John R

mike65 wrote: »

A mod might want to move this, tonights programme which is airing now is looking at fuel smuggling. The state is making a tidy sum out of this practice - about 160 million a year.

And a huge pile in legal smuggling from NI punters crossing over to fill up.

If our government were serious in wanting to deal with this boom industry for organised crime then they should have ditched road tax and phased out VRT in favour of increased fuel duty. Close the gap to a level where it would be unprofitable to smuggle and all the ex-IRA scum would be left with would be bleaching agri-diesel and good ol drug trafficking.

Wishbone Ash

John R wrote: »

legal smuggling

Oxymoron?

murphaph

Yeah it seems these border boyos are untouchable. I wouldn't lay all the blame at the RoI's door. HM Customs & Excise have probably been told to leave South Armagh well alone for so long now that they wouldn't know how to target these gangsters.

There's a higher political agenda at play here and these low-lives are profiting from it while the rest of us pay nicely in taxes at every turn.

E92

John R wrote: »

If our government were serious in wanting to deal with this boom industry for organised crime then they should have ditched road tax and phased out VRT in favour of increased fuel duty. Close the gap to a level where it would be unprofitable to smuggle and all the ex-IRA scum would be left with would be bleaching agri-diesel and good ol drug trafficking.

The disparity in fuel prices is partly responsible for the fact that the Government will have to pay €270 million in Carbon Credits. VRT has resulted in cars being left without vital items of safety equipment like ESP, so I would agree that VRT should be scrapped, ghowever John Gormless thinks that his strategy will work when in fact it won't(all that said the old system of tax on engine size was a million times worse)

Victor

Of course, the Irish government loves this, companies from as far away as Scotland coming here and contributing to our taxes.

ardmacha

This was a poor programme, which gave little useful information. Fuel smuggling is illegal, but hardly immoral, so nobody worries about it, and it provides a supply chain and cover for the real damage and immoral profit obtained from diesel laundering and the like. This problem can be easily solved by the harmonisation of fuel prices, a bit on petrol in the South and a reduction in motor tax and the reverse in the North, with a somewhat larger reduction, which would increase revenue there.

If such taxes were devolved to the NI assembly then this would happen immediately. However there is a colonial political agenda here, Gordon Brown doesn't want a different petrol price in NI as then the Scots would than also want a different price. None of this has anything to do with Ireland, but the colonial power is happy to sacrifice petrol retailers in NI and allow diverse black market activities to prove a political point in Britain. It is ridiculous that RTE is doing programmes about this or that Customs are wasting their time on this when the prices could be harmonised and the Customs could investigate cocaine or heroin or the like or clamp down on any remaining diesel laundering.

loyatemu

t is ridiculous that RTE is doing programmes about this or that Customs are wasting their time on this when the prices could be harmonised and the Customs could investigate cocaine or heroin or the like or clamp down on any remaining diesel laundering.

obviously OT here but you could save a lot of customs and garda time by legalising cocaine and heroin also....

ardmacha

obviously OT here but you could save a lot of customs and garda time by legalising cocaine and heroin also....

A completely irrelevant and OTT proposition, oil fuel is a fairly essential component of modern society, not something spoiled brats take for kicks. All that is involved in this case is the bureaucratic arrangements for taxing it.

mike65

ardmacha wrote: »

If such taxes were devolved to the NI assembly then this would happen immediately. However there is a colonial political agenda here/

Send a gunboat, why don't you.

Mike.

ednwireland

just went to watch this on rte website and this message is up

Due to legal issues, this edition of Prime Time Investigates is not available to view online. We apologise for any inconvenience.
Prime Time Investigates: Untouchables

anyone know what that is all about ?

mike65

Oh dear, some solicitor has sent a writ. I know Slab Murphy (not named as far as I recall) is in court today. Might that be the link?

Mike.

Victor

Spamming now, are we mike?

mike65

From a different thread.

edited

Mike.

murphaph

ardmacha wrote: »

This was a poor programme, which gave little useful information. Fuel smuggling is illegal, but hardly immoral, so nobody worries about it, and it provides a supply chain and cover for the real damage and immoral profit obtained from diesel laundering and the like. This problem can be easily solved by the harmonisation of fuel prices, a bit on petrol in the South and a reduction in motor tax and the reverse in the North, with a somewhat larger reduction, which would increase revenue there.

If such taxes were devolved to the NI assembly then this would happen immediately. However there is a colonial political agenda here, Gordon Brown doesn't want a different petrol price in NI as then the Scots would than also want a different price. None of this has anything to do with Ireland, but the colonial power is happy to sacrifice petrol retailers in NI and allow diverse black market activities to prove a political point in Britain. It is ridiculous that RTE is doing programmes about this or that Customs are wasting their time on this when the prices could be harmonised and the Customs could investigate cocaine or heroin or the like or clamp down on any remaining diesel laundering.

Sorry but I completely disagree. This is the thin end of a wedge. These gangsters think they can operate outside of the laws of these lands. RTE correctly highlighted the apparent inaction by Gardai/PSNI/Customs and the small sentences handed down when the odd conviction is made.

Tax and revenue rates are different across the world for various reasons and whilst I agree that we could relatively easily (and with added benefit) bring rates closer together on this island, I would be against such a move just to stifle the smugglers. That's the job of HM Customs and the PSNI in cooperation with Revenue and the Gardai in this case.

If you think that fuel smuggling is the only dodgy thing these lads touch I'd think again. The programme did cover (albeit briefly) fuel laundering and the associated costs to the environment and Monaghan Co Co.

ardmacha

If the recent political developments on this island are to be worth anything, then pointless bureaucratic distortions to normal life introduced to facilitate partition have to eliminated. The price differential should be removed for this reason, it is the right thing to do in any case. This would eliminate the supply chains which facilitate fuel laundering and make it much easier to attend to this (real) problem. It really is a no brainer.

Victor

murphaph wrote: »

If you think that fuel smuggling is the only dodgy thing these lads touch I'd think again. The programme did cover (albeit briefly) fuel laundering and the associated costs to the environment and Monaghan Co Co.

Then tax farm and industrial fuel also, at least enough to make fuel laundering unprofitable. If you don't want to increase the overall tax burden, then off-set it somewhere else.

Carawaystick

taxing farm diesel would result in the taxing of home heating oil.
Doubling the price of this would make any public outrage seen in the last 20 years pale into insignificance. plus the organised farming lobby would be orchestrating the complaining.

Ah yes let HMRC stop smuggling. put the names of the smugglers on a disc and loose it.....

Victor

Carawaystick wrote: »

taxing farm diesel would result in the taxing of home heating oil. Doubling the price of this would make any public outrage seen in the last 20 years pale into insignificance. plus the organised farming lobby would be orchestrating the complaining.

Then increase say, pensions and child beneift by a compensating amount.

murphaph

ardmacha wrote: »

If the recent political developments on this island are to be worth anything, then pointless bureaucratic distortions to normal life introduced to facilitate partition have to eliminated. The price differential should be removed for this reason, it is the right thing to do in any case. This would eliminate the supply chains which facilitate fuel laundering and make it much easier to attend to this (real) problem. It really is a no brainer.

The hard fact is that NI is a different country and is tied to the tax rates of the UK. They are not going to adjust the rates across a nation of 60 odd million to eliminate this illegal activity centred around the border, particularly south Armagh it would seem. The tax rates of the UK are not pointless bureaucratic distortions, they're just the tax rates of the UK which happen to be different from ours.

I believe it would make sense for us to increase fuel duty and eliminate VRT and Road Tax. Let the polluter pay and remove the major incentives for people not to regiser their polish/british/french etc. cars here. The point however is that we can't keep adjusting our rates to keep them in line with the UK just to prevent smuggling. The law must chase and punish these characters properly. They would turn their hand to other illegal activity if we just adjusted rates anyway. It's in their nature.

ardmacha

Because NI is run by Britain is no reason not to expect responsible government there. Indeed the injustices committed by the British in Ireland should oblige them to try and mitigate the damage as far as possible, if they had any moral sense whatsoever. There is no justification whatsoever for NI have to have the same rate of fuel duty as Britain, it doesn't have the same water charges, rates or a variety of other things. Illegal movement of fuel across the sea is much easier to prevent than on land, as far as I am aware there is not a vast flow of fuel from Wexford to Wales for example.

murphaph

I have heard from various sources that there is a 'healthy' flow of Diesel from Dublin to Scotand via Northern Ireland. Wexford->Wales would be suspicious as it's from one jurisdiction to the other. Belfast/Larne->Cairnryan/Troon is within the same country so there is no requirement for any customs. Once the fuel is into NI it is impossible to tell if it's UK duty paid or not.

If NI had it's fuel duty cut, what would NI increase tax on to compensate Westminster?

There's no point talking about british injustice blah blah. The law is the law and these border boyos don't care two hoots for the laws of either side of that border. One thing motivates them, well two things £ and €

murphaph

murphaph wrote: »

I have heard from various sources that there is a 'healthy' flow of Diesel from Dublin to Scotand via Northern Ireland. Wexford->Wales would be suspicious as it's from one jurisdiction to the other.

It would be interesting to know how much heavier the car ferries are leaving Ireland than those arriving. Many drivers arrive in Ireland with nearly empty tanks and leave with full ones.

ardmacha

If NI had it's fuel duty cut, what would NI increase tax on to compensate Westminster?

As only a much reduced amount of fuel duty is collected in NI, not much compensation is needed, but £50 a year on motor tax would be the obvious way forward. As petrol would be cheaper motorists would end up about the same, except those living near the border who currently enjoy cheap motor tax and cheap petrol.

As for a flow of diesel to Scotland, if the taxes were harmonised, the price gap would be reduced, making it less worthwhile. All you need is a large health and safety fine for carrying fuel on ships in unauthorised ways.

The law is the law

Only following orders, eh.

murphaph

ardmacha wrote: »

As only a much reduced amount of fuel duty is collected in NI, not much compensation is needed, but £50 a year on motor tax would be the obvious way forward. As petrol would be cheaper motorists would end up about the same, except those living near the border who currently enjoy cheap motor tax and cheap petrol.

As for a flow of diesel to Scotland, if the taxes were harmonised, the price gap would be reduced, making it less worthwhile. All you need is a large health and safety fine for carrying fuel on ships in unauthorised ways.

We can't keep harmonising taxes around Europe just because there is a risk of smuggling if we don't. Each sovereign country has reasons for various tax rates. Believe me-if all taxes across Europe were harmonised tomorrow, this remote island would suffer imeasurably economically.

ardmacha wrote: »

Only following orders, eh.

Decent society is built on the law. Without punishments for crimes, there'd be a free for all.

ardmacha

Decent society is built on the law.

Unjust societies have loads of laws. Decent society is built on moral law.

murphaph

ardmacha wrote: »

Unjust societies have loads of laws. Decent society is built on moral law.

Aren't the laws of the two countries broadly moral? They are ultimately derived from the people who elect the legislative who make most of our laws.

ardmacha

ardmacha wrote: »

Unjust societies have loads of laws. Decent society is built on moral law.

Not exactly sure what moral law has to do with it unless the smugglers have morals and feel guilty about what they are doing!

Victor

ardmacha wrote: »

As for a flow of diesel to Scotland, if the taxes were harmonised, the price gap would be reduced, making it less worthwhile. All you need is a large health and safety fine for carrying fuel on ships in unauthorised ways.

While there have been instances of illegally modified vehicles, most of the fuel is carried legally in oversized fuel tanks on trucks.

expectationlost

*cough*

dermo88

Lower taxes mean honest taxpayers. Smugglers of all kinds are heroes in my opinion, the more the better. They force Governments to realise that taxes are too high. The real villains are the bankers who are swanning around on the golfcourse scot free. They and their families should be sold into prostitution in Thailand.....and don't bother using condoms on them.

mike65

expectationlost wrote: »

*cough*

Wha?

Victor

2007 wants its thread back.

Dermo, anger is understandable, however, abuse is unacceptable.