The Fiat Punto has dropped it's price

E92

I noticed in The Sunday Times yesterday that there was a full page colour ad pointing out that from January the price of a Punto will be falling by as much as €1,250 as a result of the VRT change. What's more interesting is that Fiat have decided that any Punto registered from January will benefit. Now that is clearly good for the consumer, but what I'm wondering is have Fiat kept some of the difference for themselves(just to be clear they are passing on the VRT reduction in January instead of in July next year)?

Petrols are down by €750.
1.3 75 bhp Multijet is down by €1,000.
1.3 90 bhp Multijet is down by €1,250.

ninty9er

Does that make the 1.3 90 the same price as the petrol nearly now??

Riskymove

E92 wrote: »

, but what I'm wondering is have Fiat kept some of the difference for themselves(just to be clear they are passing on the VRT reduction in January instead of in July next year)?

Sorry but I don't quite get the question.

The actual VRT is still the same until July so if FIAT are passing on the reduction now are they not actually losing money? As they will have to pass on full VRT to Revenue?

S.I.R

they can drop the prices to 1 euro and it still don't make a difference , punto's are wreaks.

Mailman

No, still way more expensive at 19K.

Fiat are selling less than Kia and Hyundai at the moment so they needed to do something but their cars are still too expensive even with a 4yr warranty.

E92

Riskymove wrote: »

Sorry but I don't quite get the question.

The actual VRT is still the same until July so if FIAT are passing on the reduction now are they not actually losing money? As they will have to pass on full VRT to Revenue?

What I meant was Fiat have dropped the prices of the Punto by between €750 and €1,250 which is to be welcomed(especially as people were coming on here saying that the VRT savings wouldn't be passed on to the customer at all) but is the saving they are passing on the full saving as a result of the VRT changes(FWIW I realise that Fiat are going to lose between €750 and €1250 for every Punto they seel between January and June next year, but I'm wondering are they going to be gaining anytrhing after 1/7/08 because there's not going to be a change in July for the Punto's pricing.

Mailman

To me it doesn't appear they are passing on the full saving.

€20500 is the list price for the 90bhp diesel grand punto which is in the 14% VRT band.

VRT at present is 22.5% which is €4612.5

so pre VRT price is 15887 which is 86% of full price under new VRT rules so 100% under new VRT rules is €18473 and they say they've knocked 1500 off the price so to me it appears they are pocketing 500 euro.

I think my calculation is near right regardless of whether you go off RRP or 10% below RRP for OMSP.

colm_mcm

It's like Citroen "paying the VAT", it's just marketing b*ll*cks.

E92

Full story here.


Yes Mailman is on the ball, they are not pocketing €500 at all they are pocketing €750 its a €1,250 reduction for the 90 bhp diesel. In fairness they are speccing up some models too like most petrol engines which will come with aircon as standard for no extra cost.

The Grande Punto is such a rare car these days, it's sister the Opel Corsa at a rough guess outsells the Punto by around 6 to 1. Hard to believe the Punto was the nation's favourite supermini only 9 years ago.

ninty9er

I wonder has this got ANYTHING at all to do with VRT or are FIAT just trying to shift Puntos.

It sounds like a load of bollocks to me as the Punto is the only car mentioned while I'm almost certain if you asked a dealer about the situation on a new Brava in January you'd be told "where to go":rolleyes:

L1011

S.I.R wrote: »

they can drop the prices to 1 euro and it still don't make a difference , punto's are wreaks.

Back up statements like that before making them.

I'll back up mine: They're not.

Theres one parked outside this house right now, 16 months old Grande 1.3 Multijet with SEVENTY THOUSAND K on the clock. Its not broken down once. The biggest "problem" it has is that the glovebox doesn't close flush since my nephew *stood* on the open door.

You've posted statements like this about Fiat's in a number of threads without providing any evidence whatsoever.

ninty9er

MYOB wrote: »

Back up statements like that before making them.

I'll back up mine: They're not.

Theres one parked outside this house right now, 16 months old Grande 1.3 Multijet with SEVENTY THOUSAND K on the clock. Its not broken down once. The biggest "problem" it has is that the glovebox doesn't close flush since my nephew *stood* on the open door.

You've posted statements like this about Fiat's in a number of threads without providing any evidence whatsoever.

Check his handel, then picture the car, then picture the driver and then picture why such a car owner might take issue with a Punto, reliability isn't the first thing that comes to my mind!!

Sorry for the generalisation, but S.I.R. has done it so I'm judt doing it back:p

colm_mcm

He's actually driving a Saab 9000, rather than the Civic SIR you might imagine.

Joint 1st with E92 as the most misleading name! (he drives an S40)

L1011

ninty9er wrote: »

Check his handel, then picture the car, then picture the driver and then picture why such a car owner might take issue with a Punto, reliability isn't the first thing that comes to my mind!!

Sorry for the generalisation, but S.I.R. has done it so I'm judt doing it back:p

He specifically said that they were "wreaks" (note the lovely spelling), so I'm presuming he meant reliability wise. If its based on something else, a Giugiaro design somewhat covers the looks angle, and a 1.3 90bhp turbodiesel covers the power angle...

So, its just general muppetry then, I guess.

Mailman

Right, so we have seen our first manufacturer pocketing the VRT difference here.

Because VRT is an "ad valorem" tax the distributor\dealers can get away with this because the amount of VRT to pay stays the same regardless of how cheaply you can source the car overseas.
If VRT worked off invoice price then the distributors wouldn't be able to get away with this as everyone would import in preference to buying locally.

Masada

MYOB wrote: »

Back up statements like that before making them.

I'll back up mine: They're not.

Theres one parked outside this house right now, 16 months old Grande 1.3 Multijet with SEVENTY THOUSAND K on the clock. Its not broken down once. The biggest "problem" it has is that the glovebox doesn't close flush since my nephew *stood* on the open door.

You've posted statements like this about Fiat's in a number of threads without providing any evidence whatsoever.

yes i agree, he was talking crap like this in the other tread,. unless you going to make a valid point SIR then why bother other than increasing your post count because theres no sense in your comments at all.,
although i wouldnt go bashing the SIR civics and associating them with muppets (although i see the point.,lol), im a big honda fan and have had loads of fiats aswell,. come to think if it i wouldnt even dream of having a saab.,

E92

colm_mcm wrote: »

He's actually driving a Saab 9000, rather than the Civic SIR you might imagine.

Joint 1st with E92 as the most misleading name! (he drives an S40)

LOL there are lots of people at that game!

Without having to think too far you drive an FTO but you sell Toyota's IIRC! vtec inspite of his username has a Fiat Punto according to the Fiat Punto thread I was expecting a VTEC Honda of some sort! And JHMEG in spite of his username doesn't have an EG, now a question for those who really know about cars, what does JHM stand for?(I know the answer btw, and should JHMEG come across this thread don't answer this question, don't ruin it for everyone else, please:)). He actually has an EJ.

Mine is definately the most deceptive I admit though;)!

Masada

E92 wrote: »

LOL there are lots of people at that game!

Without having to think too far you drive an FTO but you sell Toyota's IIRC! vtec inspite of his username has a Fiat Punto according to the Fiat Punto thread I was expecting a VTEC Honda of some sort! And JHMEG in spite of his username doesn't have an EG, now a question for those who really know about cars, what does JHM stand for?(I know the answer btw, and should JHMEG come across this thread don't answer this question, don't ruin it for everyone else, please:)). He actually has an EJ.

Mine is definately the most deceptive I admit though;)!

i do have a vtec though, A 93 EG civic VTi, although not on the road at the moment, just have had puntos aswell.,;)
have had a lot more honda's than fiats aswell., my favorate one being the 91 civic special edition., the hatch,. it has everything in it, air con,PS and all the bells and whistles and thats in 91!:eek:

oh, and japanese home market., JDM japanese domestic market etc.,;)

colm_mcm

JHM is honda chassis number code for their cars.

E92

colm_mcm had the right answer!

JHM is the first 3 digits of a Honda VIN. And EG/EH etc are the next 2/3, hence where we get a DC1, EH, etc from.

Masada

E92 wrote: »

colm_mcm had the right answer!

JHM is the first 3 digits of a Honda VIN. And EG/EH etc are the next 2/3, hence where we get a DC1, EH, etc from.

true, thats where its used, but what does it mean?:p

E92

vtec wrote: »

true, thats where its used, but what does it mean?:p

I'll let you find that one out:p! Do you expect me to know everything:D?

E92

There is in fact more than one possibility for the beginning of a Honda VIN. JHM is what a Japanese built Honda begins with. 1HG is a US built Honda and 2HG is a Canadian built Honda. In fact it's all here.

Masada

so a JHM is a japanese built "japanese home market" honda.,lol.,
the americans have a load of codes that we dont use though, even on the same parts they can have different part numbers etc.,

E92

vtec wrote: »

so a JHM is a japanese built "japanese home market" honda.,lol.,
the americans have a load of codes that we dont use though, even on the same parts they can have different part numbers etc.,

Not really, a JHM is a Jap built Honda, and that's it! It doesn't matter which market it is for;). Any Irish spec Honda built in Japan would be a JHM as well. And actually, I see it's only cars, they seem to be saying that MPV's are actually JHL's even if they are Japanese built. I genuinely don't know the answer to this, but are the Swindon built Hondas JHM as well?

ninty9er

We still haven't officially found FIAT guilty or innocent of marketing a scam though....

This juror says guilty:D:D

Masada

did ya see their new bravo add? 1 million mile warrenty (or 4 years) i believe it is.,
lol., you would need to drive for about 10 hours a day to get that kind of milage within 4 years.,lol
its a kind of misleading way of saying unlimited milage warrenty like the hyundai i think ..,

Motormouth

Mailman wrote: »

Right, so we have seen our first manufacturer pocketing the VRT difference here.

Because VRT is an "ad valorem" tax the distributor\dealers can get away with this because the amount of VRT to pay stays the same regardless of how cheaply you can source the car overseas.
If VRT worked off invoice price then the distributors wouldn't be able to get away with this as everyone would import in preference to buying locally.

How are they pocketing the difference? The effects don't take effect till July, they have reduced their cars now. What can they be pocketing?

Mailman

Motormouth wrote: »

How are they pocketing the difference? The effects don't take effect till July, they have reduced their cars now. What can they be pocketing?

The prices will not drop further in July and the only reason they are dropping the price now is because Fiats are not selling. Look at the sales figures on simi.ie.
I did my calculations above based on what price should drop to in July based on CO2 emissions of the Punto diesel.

Their market share has collapsed because they pitched the price of a Punto at nearly the same price as a Yaris. The Corsa which is a better car with the same FIAT diesel engines is as cheap. The new Fiesta is soon to be launched too.
VRT reduction here is nothing more than a smoke screen to cover up atrocious sales.

Things have got so bad sales wise that Tractamotors in Blanchardstown had a sign outside saying that they'd service any make of car. If they are not selling, they're not servicing either.

Motormouth

Mailman wrote: »

The prices will not drop further in July and the only reason they are dropping the price now is because Fiats are not selling. Look at the sales figures on simi.ie.
I did my calculations above based on what price should drop to in July based on CO2 emissions of the Punto diesel.

Their market share has collapsed because they pitched the price of a Punto at nearly the same price as a Yaris. The Corsa which is a better car with the same FIAT diesel engines is as cheap. The new Fiesta is soon to be launched too.
VRT reduction here is nothing more than a smoke screen to cover up atrocious sales.

Things have got so bad sales wise that Tractamotors in Blanchardstown had a sign outside saying that they'd service any make of car. If they are not selling, they're not servicing either.

Did I ask about market share?
I was wondering how you think they are pocketing something when they have decreased the price?

Mailman

Motormouth wrote: »

Did I ask about market share?
I was wondering how you think they are pocketing something when they have decreased the price?

Are you just looking to pick a fight?
Did you read my previous posts to this thread where I worked through the drops in VRT charge and the drops in their RRP showing that the drop in RRP is less than drop in VRT. If drop in RRP is less than equal to drop in VRT then they are pocketing difference.

Motormouth

Not at all, just don't understand your logic. Calculations aside, Had the VRT come down, and the price had not, then yes, they would be "pocketing" the difference but my point was that it (the vrt) has not come down and won't till July so they can't be pocketing anything, surely?

Mailman

Motormouth wrote: »

Not at all, just don't understand your logic. Calculations aside, Had the VRT come down, and the price had not, then yes, they would be "pocketing" the difference but my point was that it (the vrt) has not come down and won't till July so they can't be pocketing anything, surely?

You are being just as disingenuous as Fiat are. You know damn well that I was referring to July onward.
If I am able to work out the changing VRT values then obviously I'm familiar enough with the topic to know when the different rates are taking effect as is most everyone else if for no other reason than it is stickied at the top of this sub-forum.

Distributors never like to adjust valuation of a car downward as it affects secondhand market. FIAT have found an "excuse" they can use to drop the price of a product that is priced uncompetitively now and still not pass on a large part of the difference in VRT rates from July onward.

I'm glad you have given me an opportunity to talk at great length about just how cynical Fiat Ireland have been in their pricing of this particular model. I hope it backfires horribly on them.

jonnygee

Im not a great fan of fiat as I had a rustbucket many years ago and I swore never again, but you cant blame them for trying, I remember they used a tactic some years ago called open book pricing which in theory promised bargain prices but in reality made no difference as your trade in was correspondingly reduced. The only way to buy these reduced cars i think is with a straight sale and then it might be worthwhile. I think the current punto and bravo look quite good actually and would probably fit the bill for quite a number of buyers if you were willing to keep them for a long time, but dont expect a good trade inprice for them.

Stephen

E92 wrote: »

I genuinely don't know the answer to this, but are the Swindon built Hondas JHM as well?

Swindon-built Honda VINs start with SHH, if the VIN on my FK2 Civic is to be believed

E92

Mailman's point is very simple really: the "VRT reduced price" means that they lose whatever it is they are losing now but after July the VRT saving is not being fully passed onto the consumer, so they will be making more money than they do presently before any VRT cuts take place.

copacetic

Motormouth wrote: »

Not at all, just don't understand your logic. Calculations aside, Had the VRT come down, and the price had not, then yes, they would be "pocketing" the difference but my point was that it (the vrt) has not come down and won't till July so they can't be pocketing anything, surely?

but you will agree that based on their ads they are planning to pocket the difference after july?

Riskymove

E92 wrote: »

Mailman's point is very simple really: the "VRT reduced price" means that they lose whatever it is they are losing now but after July the VRT saving is not being fully passed onto the consumer, so they will be making more money than they do presently before any VRT cuts take place.

But we don't know what they will be doing post-July!!

I'm with Motormouth on this....Fiat are CURRENTLY not pocketing anything as they are still (presumably) paying full VRT to Revenue.

We'll have to wait and see how prices change in July before we can make some of the statements that have been made so far!

E92

Riskymove wrote: »

But we don't know what they will be doing post-July!!

But we do! Read the ads. They said they were passing on the VRT savings in the Punto in January instead of July. The implication being that there will be no reduction in price in July.

Stephen wrote:

Swindon-built Honda VINs start with SHH, if the VIN on my FK2 Civic is to be believed

+1!

Riskymove

E92 wrote: »

But we do! Read the ads.

A fair cop...how are they doing it though

are they actually lowrring the base price of the car thus incurring less VRT or are they just giving allowances to purchasers and paying full VRT as before?


On another point surely most cars will have some increase every year in the base price regardless of VRT changes. In this case we are looking at Fiat Punto present prices and applying the VRT change.

But will any car make still have the same base price as now in July?

JHMEG

JHM is the 1st three letters of the VIN of any Japan-built Honda car that was built for export. It doesn't stand for anything, altho some people think it stands for Japan Honda Motor Co.

Similarly as already mentioned 1HM is USA, 2HM is Canada and SHH is Swindon. AFAIK all these retain the 1st 3 letters regardless of whether they are exported from the country of manufacture or not.

There are other plants... Malaysia and Brazil I think. Dunno what their VINs start with. (Also a few JVs in developing countries)

VINs are a standard and I think the above may have been assigned to Honda by someone like ISO or SAE or someone.

@vtec, I had one of those in your pic, all 75 carburetted bhp of it. Mine was black tho. It's where I got the username from.

Masada

JHMEG wrote: »

@vtec, I had one of those in your pic, all 75 carburetted bhp of it. Mine was black tho. It's where I got the username from.

Ive had loads of them, I still have a jap 1.3 EL-X in black at the moment, An EG VTi and an EP1 2004.,
someone thought i drive a punto earlier in one of these threads but ive had a lot more honda's than fiats.,lol.,

JHMEG

you've had loads of 1.3 DXs?! They're not that good!

Masada

loads of EG civics.,