Coin operated meters

bmaxi

I was speaking to ESB customer services and the topic of coin operated electricity meters came up. I was told these are illegal but the operator couldn't tell me why. Anybody know why this is?

RoundyMooney

I have to say, I was unaware of this, if it's in the terms and conditions of supply, I haven't seen it before.

I'll do a bit of digging on our intranet site tomorrow and see if I can learn anything.

byte

I notice that in UK, its possible to have a meter that takes tokens, which you buy from a local shop. It means you never get a bill, you just top it up with tokens and a LCD display reads out the units or monetary value left.

It's something I've not seen over here though.

jimogr

byte wrote: »

I notice that in UK, its possible to have a meter that takes tokens, which you buy from a local shop. It means you never get a bill, you just top it up with tokens and a LCD display reads out the units or monetary value left.

It's something I've not seen over here though.

UCD have/had a similar system in one of their apartment blocks (Mervile). You'd buy a card in the shop and put this into the meter and it would top up your credit - also with and LCD display.

With the right combination of buttons on the meter it was possible to set your cost per unit, we had ours set to 0.

They've built a lot of new apartments out in UCD since then, not sure what system they use now.

RoundyMooney

ESB have budget controllers, but you wouldn't want to get yourself into a position where you'd qualify for one.

Atm, they require resetting with each price change, and occasionally to update the debt outstanding, so are more labour intensive than your bog standard kWh meter, which is why, unfortunately IMO, they are not an option for those who would like to have them.

With smart metering, that will no doubt change though.

Stoner

about 2 years ago, selling on electricity was made illegal in Ireland. Some building management companies were charging large offices for electricity and there was some dodgy stuff going on. As a result coin meters and check meters were outlawed, so you can't check meter a tennant and charge them for the usage, each tennant requires a meter in a central location so they can have an account directly with an electricity supplier.
Resulted in more sub mains runs of cable etc but was a fair change to make IMO

Hoagy

Stoner wrote: »

about 2 years ago, selling on electricity was made illegal in Ireland. Some building management companies were charging large offices for electricity and there was some dodgy stuff going on. As a result coin meters and check meters were outlawed, so you can't check meter a tennant and charge them for the usage, each tennant requires a meter in a central location so they can have an account directly with an electricity supplier.
Resulted in more sub mains runs of cable etc but was a fair change to make IMO

Have you any source material for this?
Another contractor rang me with a query regarding this about six months ago and I couldn't find any reference to it. Eventually we rang DH meters who sell nothing else than token and check meters and they knew nothing about it either.
Retailing electricity at a profit has always been illegal, but surely there are still thousands of bedsits with coin or token meters, also floodlit tennis courts and pitches etc.

Stoner

I'll check it out Hoagy

Basically we cant get check meters anymore, we cant buy them, we use to have one landlord meter in offive developments with check meters for each floor, now none of the switch gear manufacturers will sell them,
Jackson SG
Davenhams
BMC
CEL
M+L
KM

etc will not build a board with check meters in them. they say they cant even get them, so I'll get the wording from one of them tomorrow. It may be the case that I read into it wrong and that coin operated meters are now ok as you pay for it directly at a rate determined by an electrical supplier, I have not heard of any bedsits being built for a long time, but maybe we are just out of that part market now.

The rule when it was brought out only stood for new developments, existing check meters did not have to be changed over.

Hoagy

Thanks for that. I wonder if the CER have anything to do with it.

fishdog

I bought them in Eurosales not so long ago. They were about €90 each. I installed them for washing machines for holiday homes. They were rated for 80A and took 1 or 2 euro coins. If you had the key to the padlock on them you could set how many units you got for your money.

Hoagy

Right, after much digging, the following may be the answer.
In the ESB's General Conditions of Supply, both business and residential, there is a condition which states
" You cannot extend your supply to someone else. We will consider them to be a separate customer"
So that would appear to rule out coin meters in flats or check meters for offices as Stoner suggests.
But only where these current conditions have been signed up to, presumably.

bmaxi

Thanks for the replies, the ones in question are a few years old so probably above board. The reason I posed the question to the ESB was that I thought I wasn't getting value for money but when I heard the "illegal" bit I decided not to rock the boat. Is it possible to tell what rate is being charged?

antoinolachtnai

I thought ESB tried to avoid having very short term customers? They cause a lot of credit control problems, I would imagine.

The problem with a policy about not extending supply is that it does not make much sense for ESB to bill licencees (short or medium-stay accommodation or very small businesses using shared office space, say) separately. There is no clear line between a short-term tenant and a long-term one.

ESB mentions the use of private meters in an old press release:

http://www.esb.ie/main/news_events/press_release104.jsp

there is something called the 'group account standard tariff' account type on the account setup form which appears to be for landlords. The website doesn't really explain what it is actually for.

Having a meter for a floor, department or section of a company would not in itself violate the terms. It would just be part of prudent management of the resource.

Those 'no resale' clauses are always legally dodgy and potentially unenforceable depending on the circumstances. Where the amount of electricity is small and there are no safety issues involved, I do not think ESB could legally withdraw supply on the basis of this (nor would it be in their commercial interest).

Where you have tenants or biggish commercial licencees in the building, and they maintain their own electrical system within their premises, I think that ESB would be able to make a very good commercial and safety case for not accepting a reselling arrangement.

All this is based on what I read on the website and my experience of no-resale agreements in other industries. I really don't know what the actual practice is. And maybe there is an SI somewhere that we aren't aware of.

mary.odriscoll

My daughter is looking at an apartment which has a coin operated electricity metre. Does anyone know if these are expensive to operate. How much roughly would a single person have to put in metre to operate heaters, cooker, lights, microwave and shower. We would appreciate any help in this query.

2011

mary.odriscoll wrote: »

Does anyone know if these are expensive to operate.

That depends on what rate it is set at. If it is set to charge about €0.20 per unit it is about right.

How much roughly would a single person have to put in metre to operate heaters, cooker, lights, microwave and shower.

Very hard to say as there are so many variables.

How many heaters?
What rating are the heaters and the cooker?
Is there an alternative way to heat the apartment?
How frequently would they be on?
Is the water heated electrically?

If your daughter's usage is similar to yours with similar appliances her bills should be similar (assuming you are paying the going rate per unit of electricity).

mary.odriscoll

She will take a closer look now that she knows what she should be taking in to consideration. Thank you for the comment.