1080p not what you think...

IamBeowulf

At the risk of generalising, the majority of HDphiles prefer action movies to display their high-tech gear. These films are nearly always 2.35:1 or 2.40:1. This means that on a 16:9 display there are black bars on top and bottom (unless you stretch the image to fit, but then everyone looks anorexic).

Those black bars take up some of he 1080 lines. In fact, they take up at least a third. Therefore, the majority of big-budget Blurays and HDDVDs are actually producing 720 lines of picture.

Am I right?

mathias

Yes your right , in a way , but it does depend on the title and how it was transferred , most movies will have black bars but this is preferable to distorting the picture.

It would not be entirely correct to say that makes it 720p , dont forget that if you were watching on a 720p or an SD set you still get the black bars , but on the HD sets the picture clarity is still far superior. 2/3 of 1080p is still better than 2/3 of 720p or 2/3 of SD if you see what I mean.

jmal

In terms of LCD/Plasma screens this is the case.

As with Home Theatre Projection this issue is starting to be addressed.

Optoma earlier this year launched a Anamorphic Lens giving a True Cinematic 2.35:1 Image from Home Theater Projectors.

The lens sucessfully converts 16:9 to 2.35:1 eliminating the black bars commonly visible on a 16:9 screen when playing a DVD formatted.

Currently this accessory has a big price tag of $3,999 but as with everything, once other pj manufactures address this issue, pricing will be greatly reduced. Not sure if the LCD/Plasma Manufactures will ever start manufacturing 2.35:1 panels so looks like those black bars are here to stay in the flat panel market for the foreseeable future.;)

IamBeowulf

That's cool that projectors are adapting to the wider aspect! However (not shooting you down here) what I meant was that everyone is obsessed with getting the "full 1080" res when in fact they are only getting 720 when you allow for the fact that a third is used up for the black bars. Even when you eliminate those said bars, the remaining visual information is 720 max.

Again, not shooting you down!:) I just don't think I explained myself properly (or waffled, which is my curse)

mathias

Your point is made , but I would still like to point out that the only reason people are obsessed with so called " full HD 1080p " is because that is currently the best res on offer in the high street.

I have posted before that 1080 is neither the max resolution possible nor is it "full" in any way shape or form.

Higher resolutions do exist , and these will likely come on stream after this phase of the sales merry go round , possible in another year or two.

Here once again is a visual representation of whats possible at the moment , the biggest res here is a once off built in Japan , I would imagine digital 2K and 4K may be next on the agenda for home media.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:UHDV.svg

Remember that , due to bandwidth considerations , 1080i is the max that most TV broadcast companies are willing to go to , but home media and downloadable content has no such restrictions.

byte

How far could BD or HD-DVD discs be pushed in terms of resolution? Eg, would a BD be able to output Digital Cinema 4K video?

mathias

would a BD be able to output Digital Cinema 4K video?

Quite possibly , yes , also I would imagine that the format will show up on projectors first for home cinema , then to flat screens ( in order to keep the current high revenue status for screens piling in ) , but initially at a very high price point. Judging by how fast initial 720p has been superceded by 1080p sets , ( less than a year ) I would imagine projectors and sets having this capability will be about 2 years down the line , again , at the same high price point that 1080p sets are today.

A 4K cinema is very impressive , Shaw cinema in Singapore were showing it off to great effect this year. ( work trip , staying in Bugis international close to the shaw cinema , Spiderman 3 in 4K ...wow ! )

Heres a good synopsis of the current state of play with 4K , the reason it looks set to replace 35mm film projectors in most cinemas is that distribution ( currently a huge cost ) becomes negligible with this format , expect it to start drifting towards home cinema soon enough. Although well most likely see 2K first , " even fuller HD" I suppose ...then 4K " really full fuller HD " or some other logo nonsense like that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_cinema

Sparky

doing a quick calculation (and by no means accurate) it says that UHDV with the right compression is 360GBs for a 2hr film so halfing that to near 4K video would mean 180GB for 2 hrs or 60GB for 1 hr. So even a double layer BD would'nt do it.

But did I hear anything about a triple layer BD at some stage or did I just imagine it?

mathias

By the time its available I would imagine media densities will be capable. Either through compression or an improvement in the media.
In a similar fashion to the way HD files have dropped in size since the formats were introduced , what with H264 and so on.

IamBeowulf

Besides you can only go so HD until the human eye cannot perceive any better a resolution (tired so apologies for wordage)

mathias

I couldnt agree more , even the latest round of fever about 1080p sets is unwarranted considering you need at least a 50 inch or better to see it , there is no point in shelling out for a 1080p set any smaller than that. A 720p ( or 1366 x 768 ) is the more affordable and more sensible purchase at sizes less than 50inch.

But people being people and 1080p currently being the best ( for now ) , thats what everyone wants , and when 2K and 4K comes along , thats what they'll want too , regardless of screen size.

pH

You've also got to take into account that for film source material, 1080i is exactly the same as 1080p - there is no difference.

Film is 24fps, 1080i here is 50hz which means that the full 1980x1080 image is digitized and split into 2 frames. Any competent HD panel can detect film mode and in effect switches to 1080p25

Yes there is a slight issue here with 25 rather than 24 fps which is why PAL users have endured the famous 4% speedup for years but this is not relevant to the 1080i/1080p debate.

In the future some stuff may be filmed digitally @ 1080p50 and when that is finally sold you should see a smoother picture, especially in fast pans, but this stuff is quite a long way away - probably further away than the life of your current panel.

It's worth noting that computer monitors have been 1024p/1280p and higher for a long time - and currently the only real use for 1080p 'TVs' is as a monitor for a PC or games console capable of providing 1080 lines progressive.

hottstuff

1080p 24hz display is what you need to properly view HD-DVD & BD with no judder.
My 52PFL9632 has refresh rates of 24Hz, 25Hz, 30 Hz , 1080p, 50Hz, 60Hz.
The display must be able to do multiple of 24hz to eliminate judder.
Ie 24,48,72,96

jmal

I have been looking at a Sharp LC46X20E 46" LCD 1080p panel.

Just checked back this morning and seen a newer 100Hz Version (Sharp LC46X2LE) has just come available.

Can anyone explain is there going to be a big difference between the 46" 1080p 50Hz and the Newer 46" 1080p 100Hz models when playing Bluray movies and on SD content giving there is €300 in the difference?

hottstuff

jmal wrote: »

Can anyone explain is there going to be a big difference between the 46" 1080p 50Hz and the Newer 46" 1080p 100Hz models when playing Bluray movies

None whatsoever.
Read my post above yours about the 24hz compatibility.

My display uses 100hz clear LCD to double the refresh rate of any input.
So it is in fact a 120Hz display.
So when i input a 1080p 24hz , it will be shown at 48hz.which is a correct multiple of 24 , and so no judder.

mathias

My display uses 100hz clear LCD to double the refresh rate of any input.

This is marketing BS , read this thread ,

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055196530

What the manufacturer is doing there , is taking a common feature of all flat panels , and marketing it as something different in their set , thats bull , all flat panels do that.

The best tip For buying flat panels is to bring along some content and ask him to put it on for you , if you like it , fine , if they wont do it for you , go somewhere else , but you cannot rely on the marketing spiel , some of it is just outrageous lies

311

FYI ,you can select 1.85 as a filter when searching for films on some sites.

Apocolypto is 1.85 and I think it looks and sounds amazing. Although the content isn't to everyones taste ,I think it does justice to the whole hd thing.

hottstuff

mathias wrote: »

This is marketing BS , read this thread ,

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055196530

What the manufacturer is doing there , is taking a common feature of all flat panels , and marketing it as something different in their set , thats bull , all flat panels do that.

The best tip For buying flat panels is to bring along some content and ask him to put it on for you , if you like it , fine , if they wont do it for you , go somewhere else , but you cannot rely on the marketing spiel , some of it is just outrageous lies

Like i give a ***t about marketing , it works!!!

IamBeowulf

mathias wrote: »

This is marketing BS , read this thread ,

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055196530

What the manufacturer is doing there , is taking a common feature of all flat panels , and marketing it as something different in their set , thats bull , all flat panels do that.

The best tip For buying flat panels is to bring along some content and ask him to put it on for you , if you like it , fine , if they wont do it for you , go somewhere else , but you cannot rely on the marketing spiel , some of it is just outrageous lies

Dead right, although I've a picky eye and I can see the difference between 50hz and 100hz pretty easily. The 100hz, whether it's got a better frame rate or not, certainly is more easy on the eye. Faster refresh rate reduces the flicker to near-zero, as far as I can see. But everyone has their own opinions...

daedalus2097

I'd be kinda picky myself too, and while 100Hz CRT TVs are lovely and flicker-free, LCD by its very nature doesn't suffer from the same screen refresh flicker.

subway

Spankeh wrote: »

doing a quick calculation (and by no means accurate) it says that UHDV with the right compression is 360GBs for a 2hr film so halfing that to near 4K video would mean 180GB for 2 hrs or 60GB for 1 hr. So even a double layer BD would'nt do it.

But did I hear anything about a triple layer BD at some stage or did I just imagine it?

its likely this stuff would be distributed on a tape or even a hard drive (tapes are dirt cheap tho)

http://www.peripheralstorage.com/html/lto-4_tape_drive.html

by the time home efforts are pushing this (and it will be at least 5 years before they push for a successor to the winner of the dvd successor wars) disc capacity should be catching up.

mathias

by the time home efforts are pushing this (and it will be at least 5 years before they push for a successor to the winner of the dvd successor wars) disc capacity should be catching up.

Funnily enough , the smart money is on discs and physical media taking a back seat to downloadable content , and the next wave of big resolution TV's will rely more on you having broadband than on you having a HD subscription.

As broadband speeds drive up and accessability becomes the norm , I would expect to see the likes of digital 2K become available online for download.

It will be interesting indeed to see where TV's go from here , there are many many possibilities and they are not necessarily tied to disc capacity.

mathias

Faster refresh rate reduces the flicker to near-zero, as far as I can see. But everyone has their own opinions...

To clear this up , or an attempt to anyway ,

100hz is specifically a CRT technology , the electron gun in a CRT TV moved from side to side at 50 hz , doubling this considerably reduced flicker and was a good step up in picture quality on a CRT.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with flat screens , either plasma or LCD , the refresh rate on these works in an entirely different way and is totally unrelated to same thing on a CRT.

What sony is doing with the smart motion thing , is interpolation , its attempting to add something that is not part of the signal , and as with all interpolation in any picture technology , is never a good thing.

It has nothing to do with the screen refresh rate whatsoever and if they tell you different they are lying. Using the 100hz thing in advertising is misleading at best.

As a matter of fact , in terms of frames per second , a great deal of time and money has been spent by manufacturers to get the latest batch of screens and players to work at 1080p 24 fps , 24 frames per second being the same as cinema frames per second and so makes the content as close to a movie theater as possible , it does not need to be any faster than this ,
( When was the last time you were at the cinema and thought the picture was too juddery ? )



Even the best sets with this smart motion tech produce halos around the moving elements of the picture , it is far far better , to find a set with a good scaler and no interpolation at all. They will always produce better movement than any interpolating technology . You will find many of these sets , in particular Pioneer and the top of the range Panasonics which do not have to rely on cheap motion blurring tricks and marketing lies to to sell their screens.

The only good thing about Sony smart motion technology is the fact that you can turn it off.

In terms of interlaced signals ( 1080i ) vs progressive ( 1080p ) , well , all flat screens show a progressive signal at the output , for a 720 set it will de interlace and scale a 1080i signal , for a 1080p signal , no screen doubling is necessary so the 100hz thing is totally non applicable. With any flat screen , there is automatic doubling with an interlaced signal , thats the way they work , so all flat screens essentially have screen doubling on interlaced signals.

If the set has bad movement with a 1080p signal , it is nothing to do with the content , and everything to do with the screen , and no amount of interpolation will fix the issue , you would be better off forgetting about such a model altogether and looking for a better set.