Schengen, could benefit us...[Merged]

Potential-Monke

I'm currently doing a project on something, and part of my research is after bring me across the Schengen Agreement, or specifically, the Schengen Information System (SIS).

From what i can gather, it allowed free travel/access to participating mamber states (all within the EU, plus Norway and Iceland) once you ahve this Schengen-Visa. If you don't ahve it, from what i can gather, you're turfed out. YOu can get a visitor Schengen-Visa which lasts for 3 months, or if you want to work in the other country you have to get a Schengen-Residence Permit (see here for more details).

Now, Ireland and the UK are only members for access to the SIS but are not members of the Schengen Agreement, thus making it possible for anyone with a passport to come and work here without a work permit. Reason being is because Eire and the UK have an internal free-travel thing going on between them, and in order to join the Schengen Agreement we would ahve to abolish that.

But, here's the thing. If we did do this, before anyone from the member states of the Schengen Agreement could come over here and work/visit, they would have to get a Scehgen-Visa/Residence Permit. By doing this, it could possibly cut down on alot of illegal workers in this country. Unless, of course, i'm getting it all wrong!

Also, Eire and the UK have access to the SIS, which also allows them to use Atricle 96 of same, which contains information on individuals of non-nationality of the state, who should not be allowed into the country for whatever reason, ie: criminals/rapists etc. But, they are not invoking or using this Article!!! Is this madness???

FruitLover

Potential-Monke wrote: »

Is this madness???

I believe you will find that this is Sparta.

Dyr

No, this is Eire

/boot

leninbenjamin

discussed in the politics forum a while back i think...

Stephen

It looks like the common travel area will be going away soon anyway.
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/frontpage/2007/1024/1193158824220.html

Capt'n Midnight

Schengen would be good.

But we share a land boarder with the UK, who have their own travel arrangements with amongst others commonwealth countries. The North and UK would represent more journeys than Schengen.

Three options

we join Schengen and have far stricter boarder controls at the north and at all ferry ports than at present. we persuade the North to join Schengen , then to go from NI to GB you'd need passports and the whole thing , but cross boarder travel is unchanged we keep to the status quo and upgrade our boarder controls for people outside the common area to a similar level to UK , which is what we are doing

Victor

Potential-Monke wrote: »

I'm currently doing a project on something, and part of my research is after bring me across the Schengen Agreement, or specifically, the Schengen Information System (SIS).

Now, Ireland and the UK are only members for access to the SIS but are not members of the Schengen Agreement

If you were really studying this, you would know that the UK and Ireland aren't members, don't have access to the database and that we are moving to SIS2.

or if you want to work in the other country you have to get a Schengen-Residence Permit (see here for more details).

But, here's the thing. If we did do this, before anyone from the member states of the Schengen Agreement could come over here and work/visit, they would have to get a Scehgen-Visa/Residence Permit. By doing this, it could possibly cut down on alot of illegal workers in this country. Unless, of course, i'm getting it all wrong!

EU / EEA are autmoaticllay allowed entry to other EU / EEA states and to work, study, etc. If not working, they are allowed to stay assuming they aren't reliant on social welfare. EU / EEA citizens are already required to register.


So your entire hypothesis is shiite.

WexCan

I'm not too up-to-speed on all the intricacies of the Schengen Agreement. What I will say, however, is that it's dead handy travelling from say, the Netherlands to Italy and going straight to baggage reclaim.

a bientot

Schengen.....how do you spell it?

Now, Ireland and the UK are only members for access to the SIS

Do note that Ireland has very limited access to SIS and the U.K. has even less. Neither country will be permittted to access SIS2.

The nine new countries joining Schnegen on 21 December will ensure that abnormal half-in half-out countries such as the U.K. and Ireland will never have access to the same highly sophisticated database.

All of these countries have land borders and political issues around these same areas but they've overcome them and not only have joined the E.U. but also have signed up enthusiastically to Schengen.

Ireland has effectively abolished the CTA in steering passengers arriving from London through (wo)manned immigration booths as if they were arriving from Schengen or foreign countries. As so many people are presenting passports the last hurdle to joining Schnegen has been crossed and the expected visit by one individual to the European Court will lead to Ireland fully embracing the Schnegen agreement and the introduction of full immigration controlson the so called 'unique' border in the European Union.

Ireland made it clear to Bruxelles that its only reason for not proudly becoming an external Schengen border was the CTA now abandoned by Ireland.

Potential-Monke

Victor wrote: »

If you were really studying this, you would know that the UK and Ireland aren't members, don't have access to the database and that we are moving to SIS2.

It's only a small part of my project which i came across while at work and though it might have been a good topic for discussion. I'm still researching. Oh, and An Garda Siochana have access to it. See here.

EU / EEA are autmoaticllay allowed entry to other EU / EEA states and to work, study, etc. If not working, they are allowed to stay assuming they aren't reliant on social welfare. EU / EEA citizens are already required to register.

But is this actually happening? Are the ules being enforced, cuz i haven't heard of anything lately (although, i don't read newspapers that often...)

So your entire hypothesis is shiite.

Thank you for your feedback, and i'm sorry i don't have a BA or whatever in researchology/hypothesis writing, i've applied for that course for next year.

cance

Bambi wrote: »

this is Eire

/boot

+1

slipss

Read the thread there, got a question.

Doe this mean that someone from Ireland can't go to, say, Germany and work there without having to apply for a visa or permit or anything? I always assumed that every EU citizen could live and work in another EU state the same as any citizen of that state. Are Ireland and the UK excluded from that? Or is this some other thing, thanks.

a bientot

All over Europe and particularly in the nine new countries that joined our European Union in Dublin in May 2004 governments supported by their peoples are gearing up for the big night as they are accorded the privilege, the great honour of being an integral part of the Schengen territory. Each of these nine countries acquire the right to maintain an external border for Schengen if their country borders on a non Schengen land border.
From early in 2008 when the necessary renovations at their airports have taken place they will become strict Schengen borders to all outsiders including Ireland.

At the same time the API system (already in operation to Spain) for all Schengen kicks in and then all these new countries -plus the original fifteen- will have the right to stop Irish individuals from leaving Dublin airport even to visit France.

Is it not time to seek real freedom of movement for us Irish also?
Do note that we have been E.U. members for over thirty-four (34 not 3) years.

Ireland is to get much unfavourable publicity from international E.U. media on the night....as the contrast between them and us becomes more pronounced. Search google for reaction and latest articles on Schengen...

Should we protest outside the Dail on Schengen night at 23h01?

Vorsprung

a bientot wrote: »

Should we protest outside the Dail on Schengen night at 23h01?

After my bedtime.

bohsman

Is this the lizard people again?

Guy:Incognito

bohsman wrote: »

Is this the lizard people again?

Isn't it always?

cornbb

Its a result of our open border with the North and hence the UK. Until the UK do, we don't have a hope of joining Schengen unless the border with the North is closed. Its a catch 22. Would be nice to join up alright.

daveirl

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Guy:Incognito

daveirl wrote: »

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Probably. SO thats that out the window. Afterall we all know the British and Irish are afraid of carrying an id card, sure doesnt it steal your soul and let s "the man" see your thoughts.

a bientot

Its a result of our open border with the North and hence the UK. Until the UK do, we don't have a hope of joining Schengen unless the border with the North is closed. Its a catch 22. Would be nice to join up alright.

FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT

What has this to do with anything........?
Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom> we are living in a separate country. I really do not understand.
All over eastern Europe many countries were part of bloques and some were enabled to join the Union. Some even had/have a 'unique' border but this has not stopped their desire to advance and to value the freedom of movement concept that some people in Ireland absolutely loathe. Up to 65 million people a year cross these old former communist borders with little or no hassle now from 21 December everything will change.

There is no reason for us not to join. Ireland abolished the last excuse given to Bruxelles for not joining: viz the infamous CTA., as this has been withdrawn at Dublin airport and there are regular boardings by the secret and Immigration garda on buses and trains on the land border, the most common type of border in Schengen.

By the way the Moldavians (non E.U. members) have the right to apply and receive Romanian passports thus enabling them to travel around the Union having got into Schnegen first, of course.....

Why be an Irish joke in Europe with this NO NO NO Margaret Thatcher stuff?

Why be recognised as allies of the contractors (Her Majesty's Government) of the 'Berlin style' protective ring of steel around Eurostar trains at the Gare du Nord stations in Paris and Bruxelles because the same U.K. won't trust the E.U. mainlanders?

daveirl

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cornbb

a bientot wrote: »

FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT

What has this to do with anything........?
Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom> we are living in a separate country. I really do not understand.
All over eastern Europe many countries were part of bloques and some were enabled to join the Union. Some even had/have a 'unique' border but this has not stopped their desire to advance and to value the freedom of movement concept that some people in Ireland absolutely loathe. Up to 65 million people a year cross the old borders with little or no hassle now from 21 December everything will change.

There is no reason for us not to join. Ireland abolished the last excuse given to Bruxelles for not joining: viz the infamous CTA., as this is has been withdrawn at Dublin airport and there are regular boardings on buses and trains on the land border, the most common type of border in Schengen.

Why be a joke in Europe with this NO NO NO Margaret Thatcher stuff?

I don't think you understand our situation very well. There is no anti-Schengen "Margeret Thatcher" stuff in Ireland. We share an open border with the UK. The UK do not want to be part of Schengen. We can share an open border with the UK, or join Schengen, but not do both. The majority of Irish people would like to be a part of Schengen but if we did this we would lose our open border with Northern Ireland, which is clearly not desirable. Comprendé?

daveirl

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leninbenjamin

a bientot wrote: »

FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT

What has this to do with anything........?
Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom> we are living in a separate country. I really do not understand.

no clearly you don't. we value our open border with the UK (which still forms our largest export market) and more importantly the NI far more than the rest of Europe. Are you even aware of the amount of people in the border counties who would have crossed it on a daily basis to simply work? Please don't try to enforce your views on us if you don't understand our own current situation at all.

Victor

EU/EEA citizens are required to register if taking up residency in another EU/EEA country. To my knowledge, registration can't be refused without good reason.

Ireland actually does issue other EU/EEA citizens with a green card - if they go looking for it.

a bientot

I do not understand why posters come in with these illogical arguments for saying NO.

We are not special people placed here on earth to be different and to constantly echo political idealogies, linked with battles long ago, for not advancing into the future.

Look at the atlas and see where the borders are in eastern Europe. These sovereign countries are also sharing even huger frontiers (with varying terrain) with other countries (normal) and this has not forced them into a introspective hullabaloo about inconveniencing people on the other side of a border.......

This is the 21st century and not a time for a separate independent Dublin government to be hiding in the skirts/petticoats of a neighbouring country's queen.....

Yes Mr Brown, when YOU are ready Sir.
(I can put my cap back on now)

cornbb

a bientot wrote: »

I do not understand why posters come in with these illogical arguments for saying NO.

We are not special people placed here on earth to be different and to constantly echo political idealogies, linked with battles long ago, for not advancing into the future.

Look at the atlas and see where the borders are in eastern Europe. These sovereign countries are also sharing even huger frontiers (with varying terrain) with other countries (normal) and this has not forced them into a introspective hullabaloo about inconveniencing people on the other side of a border.......

This is the 21st century and not a time for a separate independent Dublin government to be hiding in the skirts/petticoats of a neighbouring country's queen.....

Yes Mr Brown, when YOU are ready Sir.
(I can put my cap back on now)

You really don't understand. Sigh.

Its not an illogical argument. Its a very plain, simple, clear-cut argument. Our hands are effectively tied by the UK. Because of our common border with the UK, we cannot join Schengen until they do. I would love if Ireland could join Schengen, along with all my buddies. So instead of making ill-informed ravings about how Irish people are anti-freedom-of-movement Thatcherites (which I find highly insulting) why don't you toddle off to a UK message board and try to talk them into joining Schengen instead? Because until they do, our hands are tied. The other alternative would be to close our border with Northern Ireland (you do realise this is a seperate country?) thus potentially undoing a delicate peace process.

Zaph

There's nothing illogical about the points being made. Let's break it down:

Ireland's biggest trading partner? The UK

Does the UK want to be part of Schengen? No

If Ireland joins Schengen what happens? Closure of the open border to NI and stricter controls on movement of people and goods between Ireland and the UK.

Likely outcome of this? Massive amounts of lost trade for Ireland and lost jobs.

Alternative? Stay out of Schengen, however reluctantly until the UK decides to join.

That's it really. It's not pandering to the UK in any way, it's just the harsh economic reality. Joining Schengen would be great, but the cost would be too high for us.

leninbenjamin

a bientot wrote: »

This is the 21st century and not a time for a separate independent Dublin government to be hiding in the skirts/petticoats of a neighbouring country's queen.....

Yes Mr Brown, when YOU are ready Sir.
(I can put my cap back on now)

GTFO sir, that type of ranting is hugely insulting. you're just a Troll frankly.

daveirl

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slipss

Call me a romantic but what with Iano and Marty swaning around America winking and blowing kisses across the table to each other and with the all powerful tyranny of Aer Lingus setting up shop in the loyalists backward maybe this kind of thing will be the push needed for the unionists to admit they were only being silly for the sake of being silly and they don't buy into this UK stuff anymore than the Scots do nowaydays. We'll all be hugging and singing Amhrain Na Bhfiann by the time this Schengen thingy comes into effect I'll wager.