I don't know what to do anymore...

LegacyUser

Hi,

This is the first time for me to post/ talk about my personal problems on boards.ie although I am a member.

this might sound abit all over the place...cos it is.

I'm a Male, 31 years.(non-EU) I came to Dublin back in 1995 to study. I did my leaving cert then started my Bsc in computing science, during the 3rd year I was placed into fulltime employment under college work scheme with a leading IT company, I did my 4th year over 3 years since I was working at that time with different IT companies.

October 2002 I decided to apply for the Irish Citizenship since I've been in the state for over 7 years and have paid tax for 4 years. so I thought I have built some strong case for my application. at that time the law for naturalization was to be resident in the state for 5 years and nothing more.
I got all my papers ready and colleceted the form5 for naturalization from the Department of Justice after sepaking to one of their representatives who told me whats required. I got all documents ready and posted in December 2002.

During November 2002 I got my redundancy after 2 years with the company and I graduated from college with a Bsc in Computing.

Jan 2003 I received a later from DOJ stating that the law has changed on the 30th November 2002. this killed all my dreams. according to the new laws no period shall be reckoned if the applicant was a student. I was on a student Visa for 6 years of the 7 years.
I was never told of the pending new law by anyone when I had a chat with the DOJ representative, didnt find it online or in the application form. it was never mentioned anywhere!

I took some legal advice and they told me wait until you get an answer from DOJ.
During this time find work in IT was very hard so in order to remain in the state I had to change my visa back to studnet.

Feb 2003 started my Masters degree in computing, while actively seeking work in IT.
during this time I've fallen into depression and didnt get any professional help other than help from my friends in Ireland.

Sep 2004 Graduated from college with a Msc in Computing, while actively seeking work in IT.

Jan 2005 received a letter from Department Of justice telling that I don't qualify for the Irish citizenship based on the new laws. I had to wait 2 years for this!

I wrote to them without use, I wrote to my local TD Minister Seamus Brennan who was so supportive and send a number of letter to Minister Of Justice Michael McDowell and after 6 months of waiting we couldnt get McDowell to help. the best he could say was for me to try again once the new laws could be applied to me, which means I have to get 5 years on working visa and then wait another 2 to get the citizenship.

Feb 2005 started an MBA course in International business management. while actively still seeking work in IT.

unfortunalty my depression got worst (not suicidal).

I decided not to give up, I have built a very strong relationship with friends who I call my family after living 10 with them in Ireland. contacted my solicitor who contacted a barrister to try to solve the problem legally.

It tooks us 2 years to get a date in the High court.

April 2007 a high court case was heared were our main argument that no sufficient publication for potential applicants, nothing was published in any Irish newspaper. our demand was to get the DOJ to accept my Application based on the old law. After much debate the judge ruled aginst me stating that the Minister does not hold the responsibility to publish/ notify potential applicants. I ddnt have to pay the legal costs due to my current situation.

The news ofcourse only made me sink deeper into my depression. I still dont like talking about it. I got very angry with Ireland, I hated Ireland, I know of people who received the citizenship left the country cos they dont like living here while I'm fighting trying to stay here.

After a week of feeling sorry for myself and angry with the world I wrote to the DOJ under freedom of infromation act demanding a number of documents from their record. What I received was not shocking:
The only publication of the new naturalization law was in a form of an internal department memo was taken place on the 27th November 2002, 3 days before the new law takes effect. while online changes were posted on the 30th November 2002!

I couldnt appeal the case as it would have to go the Supreme Court which myself cannot afford the costs if I lose. and it would take another 2 years waiting.

I wrote again to Minister Seamus Brennan who again was very supportive and contacted Minister Brian Lenihan on my behalf. but I just got the exact same letter that I got 2 years earlier from Michael McDowell.

finally I wrote a very personal letter directly to Minister Brian Lenihan pleading him to help me.

The citizenship became my life, its consuming me, every thought, every min of each day.
I dont know what to do with my life. I fee lost, I have no self esteem left in me, I feel I have no future, its been nearly 5 years since I last worked in IT. I'm trying my best to fix my life.
Apologies if I made this long, I know some will think this is stupid. I would like to know what

people think I should do.
thanks

Mr. Lost.

The Hacker

Hi , you need to accept Ireland's naturalization laws whether they were enacted in 1902 or 2002 - just like an Irish person would have to accept the laws of your country. I know you have built up a strong case for citizenship but the law is in place to stop people abusing the system by applying for student visas, not taking college seriously and using the visa to work full time in the country for 5 years. Sorry for being blunt but someone needed to say it.

Zippitydoo

Hi Mr. Lost,

I don't have any advice for you but feel for you in your current situation. It sounds like you've been through hell with this and by this stage I'm sure you almost call yourself Irish! The law is the law and is like that for a reason but surely they can make exceptions for individual cases

Good luck is all I can say!

K_P

I don't know if I have any advice for you either other than to say I hope this works out for you. You're obviously not trying to abuse any system, you've done your utmost to stay in the country. The name you use - Life Is a Mess - your life is not a mess. You sound very intelligent, highly motivated and you have fantastic qualifications. Things will get better, if you can just try to focus on the citizenship issue a little less. I applaud you for fighting your case so strongly. And while the fact that it didn't work out for you must be demoralising, try to move on with your life for now.

Persius

Well if you graduated in Sept 2004 you must now have over three years in Ireland not as a "student". The only advice I can give is to make sure you stay in employment here and hold on to your work visa. After another few years you can then apply for citizenship again.

And don't go back to study, but I'm sure you know this.

LegacyUser

Thank you all for your replies and comments...

I would like to clear one thing for "The Hacker"... I did not abuse the system in anyway. My employment was supervised by my college under the scheme "College Internship". The imigration office had full knowledge of this since they ha to re-new my visa each year until I convinced my employers to aply for a work permit for me during 2002-2003.

If I wanted to abuse the system I could have gotten married and be done with this mess ages ago, but I dont live my life like this. I know few people who have done this and got the citizenship after only 2 years in the state. 2 years!!

I haven't been working for the past 5 years now, I have lost all confidence in myself. I have a huge file from companies corresponding to my job applications. the natioanlity plays a part and since the 10 new EU states I'm at the end of the line for any job. the vacancy would be filled before they even short list me.

I had to sell most if not all of my belonging in order to live. I still have some small debts but they are killing me financially. I dont like going into town anymore, I know this sounds dramatic but its true honestly....I feel so upset when I see other people happy shopping, eating out with their partners/ family. I could have had this life, if only....

I know people who were kids, I even helped bring them up. now they have big jobs and live a successful life, ok its their own life I know. but I look to where I am and its nothing... I am a failure. I have'nt lived with my own family for over 12 years, I miss them alot. I feel I let them down, I have failed. I am not a successful son.

I have one close friend whom I confided in them about my depression. she do help me when I'm down but I always feel guilty as I dont want her to be involved in my mess, waste her time on me. I thank God that I have her as my best friend, otherwise I would have been out in the streets. I normally get my Dark moods as I call them once or twice a week, I feel very angry, upset, pain in my my chest and head. I want to screem but I can't. I would love to cry but I just can't. few weeks ago I had a really bad one and I was alone in the house, I started to shout and argue with myself I felt so upset but could'nt cry not even a tear.

Yes,..I am feeling sorry for myself. I cant move over past this unfortunately. I am in a mental and physical prison.


I have been living here for 12 years, I even have Dublin accent, I became into adulthood in Ireland. I was only 19 when i came over here. My culture is a mix between Irish and my home country. and I am very proud of this mix. I do associate Ireland as being my home. I have fully integrated into the Irish society, all my friends are Irish. I dont mix with people from my country since there are'nt many of them in Ireland.

My only hope is for Minister Brian Lenihan to view my case on humanitarian bases.

I will keep fighting for the citizenship as I do feel I am worthy of the Honor of the Irish citizenship, I am a well educated, cultured and a decent person who would like to contribute to the Irish state.

Thank you again for your comments. I really appreciate your advice.
Thank you

Mr. Lost.

JuliusCaesar

Life is a mess wrote: »

I had to sell most if not all of my belonging in order to live. I still have some small debts but they are killing me financially. I dont like going into town anymore, I know this sounds dramatic but its true honestly....I feel so upset when I see other people happy shopping, eating out with their partners/ family. I could have had this life, if only....

but I look to where I am and its nothing... I am a failure. I have'nt lived with my own family for over 12 years, I miss them alot. I feel I let them down, I have failed. I am not a successful son.

I have one close friend whom I confided in them about my depression. she do help me when I'm down but I always feel guilty as I dont want her to be involved in my mess, waste her time on me.

I feel very angry, upset, pain in my my chest and head. I want to screem but I can't. I would love to cry but I just can't. few weeks ago I had a really bad one and I was alone in the house, I started to shout and argue with myself I felt so upset but could'nt cry not even a tear.

Yes,..I am feeling sorry for myself. I cant move over past this unfortunately. I am in a mental and physical prison.

Mr Lost - firstly, you are NOT a failure, you are not a time-waster (if your friend is a friend, she will be supportive. Secondly, I'm not surprised you're angry - nothing like being caught in a trap to make people angry. And you're not the only one of your age not to have a big job, big salary, big car, mortgage etc. (I'm sure plenty of people even on here are the same!) You have shown yourself to be determined and to stick to your point. Plus you've gathered qualifications. The IT market is picking up again, in the meantime get any job that will help deal with your debts - once you are free of them you'll feel better. Would MABS be any use to you? But you need to let go of the anger against the law. The only person hurting from your anger is yourself. Give yourself another goal to work for, and you'll make up the time required for citizenship while you pursue that.

I hope that you can let go of your anger and that this will help relieve the depression. I really feel for you. There's a reason that the phrase Catch 22 became popular..........and you've been subject to it bigtime. Good luck and let us know how it goes.

MIN2511

Life is a mess; i applaud your honesty in this matter. I am in similar situation and i know where you are coming from.
I have lived in Ireland for 6 years, leaving cert done here, finishing Computer Science in a university. Did the internship with one of Ireland’s biggest companies, been offered good jobs. I would have to work for 5 years to be become a citizen that is after 6 years in the country, it is frustrating that people like us who want to contribute to the economy have such a hard time.
The thing is not everyone understands your situation, when i go home to visit (often) i don’t feel at home there anymore this is home to me.Your case is very individual at this stage; it's unfortunate that the law is what it is. It seems it's easier to get married, have a child or claim asylum than go at it the decent way. Feel free to pm me if you want

Dave!

Can I ask, why are you so eager to live in Ireland? I know you said you've been here for many years and have lots of friends here, etc., but if this citizenship thing is having such a terrible effect on your life -- such that you cant find work -- perhaps you should consider returning to your home country for a while. Work there for a few years and pay off your debts, then come back to Ireland with renewed vigor. Just a suggestion.

LegacyUser

First of all, Thank you JuliesCaeser for your nice comment and support, I will take your advice on board and will try to hold on and sort this mess. I will post here again one I get feedback from Minister Lenihan. I got a temp job now jusy for Christmas it will help pay few my bills for the next 2 months, and I'll continue to find a job in IT.

MIN2511, Are you working now, how long have you worked under work permit? gettign married is not the answer, marrige is holy and should not be used and abused.

DaveMcG, I am so eager to live in Ireland since I grow up here, I cannot think of living without having Dublin and my Irish friends in my life. its part of me. To be honest, when I travel to my home country I really enjoy visiting it, but I always find myself saying to my Irish friends when I phone I'll be coming home (Ireland) in one week <- for an example.

I associate myself with Ireland, my personalty, Education, Culture, Music, Social Etiquette are a mix of Irish & my home country. simply my lifestyle. Please don't understand me wrong.. I am not ashamed of my native nationality or trying to forget it. on the conturary I am so proud of being from my native city and I love it and hold it dearly. however my country cannot provide me with the future I'm working toward or trying to achieve. Ireland did give me that future so I am fighting for it.
I feel I am a successful migration between an Irish and my native country.

If I leave Ireland I won't be able to come back. to retun it would have to be a visit visa which doesnt entitle me to look for a job or give me residency. my debts at the moment stand at 18,000 euro. I'm working to pay them off by June 2008.
whats killing me mentally is that I would have to have on record 5 years under work visa plus two years waiting for my application to be processed. that mean it took 19 years for me to get the citizenship. (adding the previous 12 years) while there are people got it in under 3 years and now abusing the system and living on the social welfare. I don't want the social welfare, I am happy to write a legal letter binding me to never avail of it.

All I want is the right to work, start my own company, let me work and build my life.

Thank you all for your comments.

Mr. Lost