Crossing Jaw

Siogfinsceal

Im guessing its not quite the same as getting tongue over bit but its hard to tell. My horse does this a lot. Even in a grakle noseband (had to have the fur sewn back in the last one three times!). She loves crossing her jaw and sticking her tongue out god knows why!. Its annoying as its very hard to steer when she does it. One excercise that has helped is halting her when she does it getting her to flex to one side and turn on forehand before riding a small circle. Anyone know other excercises that will help? She was in a 3 ring gag now in a rubber pelham. cheers

Borderfox

Might be wrong here but other people who ride my horse use these kind of bits (pelham,three ring) I use a loose ring snaffle and he doesnt play up at all on me maybe going the opposite direction instead of more leverage might help also check their teeth too. My guy is very stiff on the right rein and its very hard to get him to flex to the right so I warm him up very gently..

Siogfinsceal

Hi borderfox. On any other horse my first action would be to use a french link snaffle (i have ridden horses described as strong in this and find they go better than in their gag/pelham so I completely agree with you).

sadly mine is the opposite riding her in a snaffle is quite scary as she can go as fast as she likes and damn does she know it. when I got her 5 years ago she had a ewe neck and hard muscle on the wrong side. Took 1.5 years to teach her to ride on the bit and get the muscle correct (got the back man and a pysio massage person too which helped). trouble is she sets herself against the bit and goes and my god can she lean shes stronger than any horse I have ridden and shes only 14.3! (did showing once...she took off with the judge in a double bridle!) - its worse when she cocks her jaw. Shes going well on her own but hacking or in a group shes stroppy. If we are anywhere strange shes much better behaved as shes not as confident and knows she cant just whizz about! Some tricks Niall Quirke showed me in a lesson on another pony helped (the whole halt, bend and then trun on forehand circle thing).

I have no worries about going fast but hate that it causes us to run out of impulsion. I feel that if I push her on I cant contain it between leg and hand so we rush towards a fence but do not have anything between leg and hand when we get there (hope im making sense hard to put into words). Shes 22 so to be fair shes old to be training! I dont want to alter anything drastically as she does her job v well when jumping. I am trying magnesium so will see if that helps. Have noticed she goes happier in her rubber pelham than 3 ring gag but in the pelham I feel the bit does not do much if I need to use it as its rubber straight mouth. wondering if a metal or jointed pelham would be better or a hanging cheek?
after years of going flat out at speed over fences before I got her I think shes a bit mouth dead which may be why a snaffle or french link has no result. She fractured her leg a few years back meaning if she goes at her usual speed she cant always get those legs up as fast as she thinks if we are not right on stride and can knock (before the fracture she could jump sideways and never knock!)

togster

hi siog.
what bit do you ride her in now? To mw she sounds unbalanced. The locking the jaw is simply an extention of this unbalance. How often do you ride her on the flat? The rushing and running is also because of being unbalanced.
Does she lean on your hand?

I would suggest the following> Try and lunge her in a chambon or similar once a week. A little at first. This can help her in finding her own balance again.
When riding her try and ride her with your leg and not with your hand. She is using your hand to achieve balance. This will take alot of time but really your hands should only be used to give direction. Your legs should also be used as the aid to achieve downwards transitions. THIS WILL TAKE ALOT of time. But a horse should never be stopped using hands, your seat is the ideal method. Try squeezing with your entire leg in walk to achieve a halt. Bring your shoulders back and use your voice. Persist with this and gradually intoduce it into all transitions. Also try some half-halts this is an extention of the above method where you help lighten the horses carriage by slowing the gait with your seat and legs (NO HANDS) sor a few strides and then allow her to go forward again be allowing your hands forward . This will help her to "carry" herself. Because currently she is not and although you may think she has developed her muscles, she may not have developed the right ones.
Also:) Try some leg yielding or shoulder in to get her to relax her jaw. All this will take time but these do work. Remember thought her problems are because she cannot carry herself, her running locking jaw is a direct result of this. And no amount of bending etc will remedy her problems unless she lears to carry her own weight and this can only be achieved when her safet net (Your hands) are removed from the situation

Siogfinsceal

Hi Togster thanks a mil for the advice. You are freakily accurate. I know it sounds mad but my horse has one hind leg slightly shorter than the other hence unbalanced. Its a result of a hock fracture (which she walked on for 6 weeks due to a misdiagnoses before it was fixed) - surgeon had to file the bone, take out infection and put leg back together.

You are also right about my seat. On other horses I ride with my seat and leg rarely my hands. On my mare I find it harder as she tanks and I react by using my hands. I am working really hard to change my reactions as when I don't respond as she expects she has to change her behaviour. It will take me some time but I am determined to get it right at some stage.;)

My warm up routine now consists of walking in circles, halts, yielding with the neck and head, turns on forehand and leg yields in walk. i did feel this was helping as her trot was great and not on forehand the other day but was not sure if it was in my head! so from what you have said It was not in my head and is the right track. Thanks again, L

togster

Hi Siog, her hind leg would play a huge part in why she is unbalanced. As you are well aware a horse that works well is one that is engagerd from behind meaning theiy achieve self balance from behind and become light and round in front. To me it sounds that she is compensating for this balance issue by using your hands. It is amazing how quickly she could improve by helping her trust herself to carry herself. I am guessing she is sound behind? Does she track up well in walk and trot or is her back end "trailing behind". If so try the half halts, i always considered them an airy fairy notion but when done right they can yield fantastic results. Also some trotting poles not to far apart to get her to shorten her outline and pull herself together. Try exercises that help build her topline in a natural way. By this i mean try walking her up a steep incline with her head down. I had a horse like her. He was very unbalanced. He rushed his corners and rode on the forehand and always dragged poles with his back end. So i took him out of that environment for a while helped him get stronger with hill work and poles on the ground and half halts while hacking. When he was strong enough (2 months) he started to thrive, did beautiful work on the flat and evented really well. So take your time ( I know you will:)) and you will see results.

togster

Siogfinsceal wrote: »

. On my mare I find it harder as she tanks and I react by using my hands.

Completely understandable that you would use your hands to stop her! Hate to bore you with examples but i had a horse like this that was obviously bet by his rider and when you moved your hand on him he would take off and lock his jaw and no one could stop him even in the strongest bit available. That actually made him stronger. So one day he did this while i was out in a big field. He took off and i said "go on so" i softened my hand and let him gallop. His jaw relaxed and he pulled up himself. I appreciate that this probably will not work on your mare and i would nor recommend it as i do not know her and how she would respond. The fact is that some horses use the fear of "tankin off" to their advantage as they know they scare their rider and they end up in control. But if you remove this from the equation you take away their advantage and you regain control. Others are genuinely scarred. Its amazing how much you can achieve by letting go of your fears of loss of control in order to achieve real control.

Siogfinsceal

its complex but you are right. for years she was jumped several times a week at speed in a strong bit before I got her so knows no better. she never used to track up in fact when I got her she would trot behind, canter in front but she used to never knock a pole as she was so quick with the legs.
few yrs and a few injuries later shes not so quick she never knocks at home but can do away (admittedly often my fault!). She will never fully track up as shes a long back and a choppy stride but is improving. I love schooling and flatwork so when I ride her this is what I focus on and gradually she has started to use her back end. Its frustrating as she was going v well recently but a knee injury put her out for a few weeks so now understandably shes dying to go. Her attitude is funny but understandable - if she knows what to do and where to do it she prefers to do it quickly rather than waiting around. She spent her first few years at a racing track as a pacer so I guess she learned from there!
we have been doing some hill work (love hill beside the yard) so will keep that up as you suggested. I don't think I will ever be able to get control of her using hands as all that happens is I lose impulsion from the back end and end up wrestling her head so as you suggested its going to be about getting me sitting back and relaxing my hands and overriding my natural reaction. Thankfully anyone else who has ridden her finds her the same so at least I know its not me! In fact most 'strong' horses do not feel strong at all after riding mine!Thanks so much for all the advice I will keep riding and working at it (if the rain ever lets up!) and keep you posted