Saint Jude,Saint Therese and Saint Martha

packofpeas · 06-12-2007 12:55AM #1

Hello to you all....I just thought I would pop in here to pass on some advice.....recently I have been going through a difficult period in my life and have turned to saying prayers to saint therese and saint jude aswell as saint martha.I have been praying that they help me through this dark period and make everything alright.

They have helped me greatly and my positivity of the situation has improved ten fold since I began these prayers....and I whole heartedly believe it is down to these blessesd people.

So the next time your down and need help look up these and say them and I guarentee you will find an improvement in some way....thanks to the power of prayer!

Obviously this is aswell as saying others prayers most notability God,Our Saviour and The Holy Mother Mary.

Just a thought to help people in times of need.

God Bless!

Run_to_da_hills · 06-12-2007 01:55AM

Praying to the dead is completely contradictory to what the Bible teaches. Consider the characteristics of God. God is omnipresent everywhere at once and is capable of hearing every prayer in the world (Psalm 139:7-12). A human being, on the other hand particularly a dead body in a grave does not possess this attribute at all and not being offensive this also includes Mary. God is the only one with the power to answer prayer. In this regard, God is omnipotent all powerful and ever living (Revelation 19:6).

Certainly an attribute a human being does not possess dead of alive. Finally, God is omniscient ie he knows everything (Psalm 147:4-5). Even before I pray God knows my genuine needs, and knows them better then me. Not only does he know my needs, but he answers my prayers according to his perfect will. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm%20139:7-12.

kelly1 · 06-12-2007 02:21PM

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Praying to the dead is completely contradictory to what the Bible teaches. Consider the characteristics of God. God is omnipresent everywhere at once and is capable of hearing every prayer in the world (Psalm 139:7-12). A human being, on the other hand particularly a dead body in a grave does not possess this attribute at all and not being offensive this also includes Mary. God is the only one with the power to answer prayer. In this regard, God is omnipotent all powerful and ever living (Revelation 19:6).

Certainly an attribute a human being does not possess dead of alive. Finally, God is omniscient ie he knows everything (Psalm 147:4-5). Even before I pray God knows my genuine needs, and knows them better then me. Not only does he know my needs, but he answers my prayers according to his perfect will. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm%20139:7-12.

RTDH, please don't be such a killjoy!

The dead aren't really dead are they? People who are declared Saints are alive and well in Heaven and by the power of God they can hear our prayers. I don't for a minute believe that our minds will have the same limited capacity that we do on earth. Those in Heaven are united intimately with God so why wouldn't they hear our prayers??

The reason we pray to saints is not to worship them but to ask their prayers of intercession on our behalf. They are "closer" to God because of the virtuous lives they lead on earth. Don't you pray for your friends and family on their behalf? What's the difference?

God bless,
Noel.

Run_to_da_hills · 06-12-2007 02:41PM

kelly1 wrote: »

RTDH, please don't be such a killjoy!

The dead aren't really dead are they? People who are declared Saints are alive and well in Heaven and by the power of God they can hear our prayers. I don't for a minute believe that our minds will have the same limited capacity that we do on earth. Those in Heaven are united intimately with God so why wouldn't they hear our prayers??

The reason we pray to saints is not to worship them but to ask their prayers of intercession on our behalf. They are "closer" to God because of the virtuous lives they lead on earth. Don't you pray for your friends and family on their behalf? What's the difference?

What "Saints" are you talking about? Are you referring those that are nominated on that "hall of Fame" .According to scripture all believers of Christ Jesus ie the "Church" are called saints.

The word Saint in the O.T Hebrew-chaciyd- faithful, kind, godly, holy one, saint, pious.

Read Psalm 116:15 "Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of His saints." also Paul said the saints were alive, you don't have to die to be a saint. "But now I am going to Jerusalem to minister to the saints." Rom. 15:25

Who needs intercession? that is another dirty lie of the devil! Jesus said there is only ONE way to god and that is through him! I.e. "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me". John 14vs6

kelly1 · 06-12-2007 03:19PM

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

What "Saints" are you talking about? Are you referring those that are nominated on that "hall of Fame" .According to scripture all believers of Christ Jesus ie the "Church" are called saints.

The word Saint in the O.T Hebrew-chaciyd- faithful, kind, godly, holy one, saint, pious.

Read Psalm 116:15 "Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of His saints." also Paul said the saints were alive, you don't have to die to be a saint. "But now I am going to Jerusalem to minister to the saints." Rom. 15:25

Who needs intercession? that is another dirty lie of the devil! Jesus said there is only ONE way to god and that is through him! I.e. "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me". John 14vs6

I know you don't have to die to be a saint.

Can I ask you, do you pray for your friends and relations? Do you pray on their behalf??

BrianCalgary · 06-12-2007 04:01PM

kelly1 wrote: »

I know you don't have to die to be a saint.

Can I ask you, do you pray for your friends and relations? Do you pray on their behalf??

Intercessory prayer? Always. The prayer goes through Jesus.

I can never understand the RC mindset of wanting to pray to a human when God is right there. The human may not be. Since humans aren't omnipresent which prayer gets heard? the one praying to St Christopher in Ireland or teh one praying to St Christopher in Guatemala?

Wouldn't it be better for both to ask God directly for travel protection?

kelly1 · 06-12-2007 04:17PM

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Intercessory prayer? Always. The prayer goes through Jesus.

I can never understand the RC mindset of wanting to pray to a human when God is right there. The human may not be. Since humans aren't omnipresent which prayer gets heard? the one praying to St Christopher in Ireland or teh one praying to St Christopher in Guatemala?

Wouldn't it be better for both to ask God directly for travel protection?

If someone asked you to pray for them, I'm sure you would, wouldn't you?

St Paul did the same thing in Romans 15:

30 I beseech you therefore, brethren, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and by the charity of the Holy Ghost, that you help me in your prayers for me to God.

Is there any difference between this and asking the saints in Heaven to pray for us?

I agree it's not necessary to ask for intercession but Catholics believe prayers coming from saints (especially Mary) by virtue of their merits are more powerful than prayers from us "mere mortals". i.e their intercession is very powerful with God.

Run_to_da_hills · 06-12-2007 04:22PM

kelly1 wrote: »

I know you don't have to die to be a saint.

Can I ask you, do you pray for your friends and relations? Do you pray on their behalf??

I would pray only through Jesus, I would not dream of going through Mary or anyone else.

kelly1 · 06-12-2007 05:05PM

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I would pray only through Jesus, I would not dream of going through Mary or anyone else.

If it's good enough for St Paul, it's good enough for me!

I presume therefore that you refuse to pray for others who ask you to pray on their behalf. Sounds a tad uncharitable to me...

JimiTime · 06-12-2007 05:16PM

kelly1 wrote: »

If it's good enough for St Paul, it's good enough for me!

I presume therefore that you refuse to pray for others who ask you to pray on their behalf. Sounds a tad uncharitable to me...

hang on??? Paul asked people to pray 'for' him. Not pray 'to' him. When Jesus was asked 'how should we pray', he made it quite clear who we pray to. Nowhere do you see in scripture, people praying to anyone but God. So why would you now say you should pray to Mary to have a word with Jesus who will then have a word with God etc? Does that really fit for you?

kelly1 · 06-12-2007 05:42PM

JimiTime wrote: »

hang on??? Paul asked people to pray 'for' him. Not pray 'to' him.

I don't pray to saints in the sense that I worship them. Saints are venerated by Catholics and pray to them in the sense that they're not physically present but are alive in well in Heaven.

JimiTime wrote: »

When Jesus was asked 'how should we pray', he made it quite clear who we pray to. Nowhere do you see in scripture, people praying to anyone but God. So why would you now say you should pray to Mary to have a word with Jesus who will then have a word with God etc? Does that really fit for you?

Answer above. And I already answered the 2nd part of your question.

It's clear from scripture that it's acceptable to God to ask others to intercede on our behalf (e.g. Romans 15:30 and many others). So why not ask the saints who are in Heaven, who know better than we do how best to pray, to intercede on our behalf.

The manner of Catholics praying to saints has long been mis-construed by Protestants.

God bless,
Noel.

JimiTime · 06-12-2007 05:49PM

kelly1 wrote: »

I don't pray to saints in the sense that I worship them. Saints are venerated by Catholics and pray to them in the sense that they're not physically present but are alive in well in Heaven.

Answer above. And I already answered the 2nd part of your question.

It's clear from scripture that it's acceptable to God to ask others to intercede on our behalf (e.g. Romans 15:30 and many others). So why not ask the saints who are in Heaven, who know better than we do how best to pray, to intercede on our behalf.

The manner of Catholics praying to saints has long been mis-construed by Protestants.

God bless,
Noel.

You seem to know what the scriptures say and have concluded that there is nothing wrong with it, so be it I suppose.

raises an interesting question to all who don't believe its right, but believe all the apostles etc are in heaven. What is the difference in asking them to pray for you, and asking lets say, kelly1 to pray for you?

BrianCalgary · 07-12-2007 03:42PM

kelly1 wrote: »

If someone asked you to pray for them, I'm sure you would, wouldn't you?.

I agree completely. Asking a living friend to pray for me is good as I would also pray for a living friend.

kelly1 wrote: »

St Paul did the same thing in Romans 15:

30 I beseech you therefore, brethren, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and by the charity of the Holy Ghost, that you help me in your prayers for me to God..

Absolutely, he is asking his friends and colleagues to pray, as I do and as my colleagues ask us.

kelly1 wrote: »

Is there any difference between this and asking the saints in Heaven to pray for us?..

Huge difference. I can PM you and ask for intercessory prayer. I know you recieve the message and pray.

But in my last post and my previuos question, If I in Calgary pray to St Christopher and at the same time you are doing the same thing in Ireland, St Christopher can not be in both places not to mention all the others from around the world who coule be doing the same thiong at that moment. St Christopher is not in a position to hear the prayers.

You also have to reconcile the act with Jesus' statemnt of, 'I am the way the truth and the life, the ONLY way to the Father is through ME.'

kelly1 wrote: »

I agree it's not necessary to ask for intercession but Catholics believe prayers coming from saints (especially Mary) by virtue of their merits are more powerful than prayers from us "mere mortals". i.e their intercession is very powerful with God.

Bu Mary is a mere mortal as well, as are all the apostles and RC saints. They are just like us, redeemed sinners, in Heaven and unable to hear our prayers.

The last problem I have with it is, if we as Christians are supposed to focussing on Christ, don't prayers to dead saints take that focus off Christ?

kelly1 · 07-12-2007 07:53PM

Quoted from http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp

Can They Hear Us?

One charge made against it is that the saints in heaven cannot even hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession. However, this is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!

In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.

See also:

http://www.catholicapologetics.org/ap070300.htm

PDN · 07-12-2007 08:13PM

kelly1 wrote: »

Quoted from http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp

Can They Hear Us?

One charge made against it is that the saints in heaven cannot even hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession. However, this is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!

In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.

See also:

http://www.catholicapologetics.org/ap070300.htm

This is one of the more bizarre interpretations of Scripture that I have encountered.

Most Christians would see the 24 elders in Revelation 5 as being representative and symbolic of the Old Testament saints and the Church (12 tribes of Israel + 12 apostles). They stand before the throne of God and are shown as presenting their prayers (their own prayers). The context would suggest these are the prayers they have offered throughout the ages for the Coming and Fulfillment of the Kingdom of God.

I am flabbergasted that anyone would use this Scripture to try to justify praying to the saints. I guess it proves that if you try hard enough, and ignore the context, you can justify anything with the Bible.

JimiTime · 07-12-2007 08:15PM

kelly1 wrote: »

Quoted from http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp

Can They Hear Us?

One charge made against it is that the saints in heaven cannot even hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession. However, this is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!

In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.

See also:

http://www.catholicapologetics.org/ap070300.htm

That misrepresents that scripture. IMO, a lesson in why you should not put your trust in a man or group of men to give you your sense! Before Christ, we had no mediator with God. So when 'The Lamb' in the scripture opens the book, the saints prayers could finally be heard. 'Not', they took all 'our' prayers and sent them to God, its talking about prayer through The Lamb. This is an example of wishing to prove something to someone, rather than actually seeking truth.

kelly1 · 07-12-2007 09:36PM

Did anyone read the second link (http://www.catholicapologetics.org/ap070300.htm)?

If the saints are united with God in Heaven why would it not be possible for them to "hear" prayers from earth through the power of God and their union with Him?

Anyway the saints in Heaven, like us, are members of the same Body of Christ.

There is also Tradition with people seem to conveniently forget. e.g.

Clement of Alexandria

"In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]" (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).

Origen

"But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep" (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).

Cyril of Jerusalem

"Then [during the Eucharistic prayer] we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition . . . " (Catechetical Lectures 23:9 [A.D. 350]).

Ephraim the Syrian

"You victorious martyrs who endured torments gladly for the sake of the God and Savior, you who have boldness of speech toward the Lord himself, you saints, intercede for us who are timid and sinful men, full of sloth, that the grace of Christ may come upon us, and enlighten the hearts of all of us so that we may love him" (Commentary on Mark [A.D. 370]).

"Remember me, you heirs of God, you brethren of Christ; supplicate the Savior earnestly for me, that I may be freed through Christ from him that fights against me day by day" (The Fear at the End of Life [A.D. 370]).

The Liturgy of St. Basil

"By the command of your only-begotten Son we communicate with the memory of your saints . . . by whose prayers and supplications have mercy upon us all, and deliver us for the sake of your holy name" (Liturgy of St. Basil [A.D. 373]).

Gregory of Nyssa

"[Ephraim], you who are standing at the divine altar [in heaven] . . . bear us all in remembrance, petitioning for us the remission of sins, and the fruition of an everlasting kingdom" (Sermon on Ephraim the Syrian [A.D. 380]).

Jerome

"You say in your book that while we live we are able to pray for each other, but afterwards when we have died, the prayer of no person for another can be heard. . . . But if the apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs?" (Against Vigilantius 6 [A.D. 406]).

Augustine

"A Christian people celebrates together in religious solemnity the memorials of the martyrs, both to encourage their being imitated and so that it can share in their merits and be aided by their prayers" (Against Faustus the Manichean [A.D. 400]).

"There is an ecclesiastical discipline, as the faithful know, when the names of the martyrs are read aloud in that place at the altar of God, where prayer is not offered for them. Prayer, however, is offered for the dead who are remembered. For it is wrong to pray for a martyr, to whose prayers we ought ourselves be commended" (Sermons 159:1 [A.D. 411]).

"At the Lord’s table we do not commemorate martyrs in the same way that we do others who rest in peace so as to pray for them, but rather that they may pray for us that we may follow in their footsteps" (Homilies on John 84 [A.D. 416]).

"Neither are the souls of the pious dead separated from the Church which even now is the kingdom of Christ. Otherwise there would be no remembrance of them at the altar of God in the communication of the Body of Christ" (The City of God 20:9:2 [A.D. 419]).

Biro · 07-12-2007 09:44PM

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Bu Mary is a mere mortal as well, as are all the apostles and RC saints. They are just like us, redeemed sinners, in Heaven and unable to hear our prayers.

Hang on... Mary is not a "mere mortal". She is the Immaculate Conception, and did not die, rather was Assumed into Heaven. Surely she then is the exception to the rule. Mary is the only one in the Bible who didn't die. Therefore it's not correct to regard her as in the same context as the rest of us.

PDN · 07-12-2007 09:49PM

Biro wrote: »

Hang on... Mary is not a "mere mortal". She is the Immaculate Conception, and did not die, rather was Assumed into Heaven. Surely she then is the exception to the rule. Mary is the only one in the Bible who didn't die. Therefore it's not correct to regard her as in the same context as the rest of us.

Scripture, of course, does not refer to the assumption of Mary. Also, I understand, Catholic dogma is silent as to whether she died or not before being (allegedly) assumed into heaven.

kelly1 · 07-12-2007 09:51PM

Biro wrote: »

Hang on... Mary is not a "mere mortal". She is the Immaculate Conception, and did not die, rather was Assumed into Heaven. Surely she then is the exception to the rule. Mary is the only one in the Bible who didn't die. Therefore it's not correct to regard her as in the same context as the rest of us.

Hello Biro, yes I agree on the Immaculate Conception (full of grace, all generations will call me blessed) but we don't know whether she died before the assumption. Now wait for the flamers...

Saint Jude,Saint Therese and Saint Martha

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