Weird Question - Is there a christian religion that believes in god

Chong

Weird Question - Is there a christian religion that believes in god and puts less emphasis on Jesus?

Zombrex

Willstev wrote: »

Weird Question - Is there a christian religion that believes in god and puts less emphasis on Jesus?

Yes, its called Islam

BrianCalgary

Wicknight wrote: »

Yes, its called Islam

First of all, Islam is not Christianity. I'm really shocked that you didn't know this wicknight. And forgive me if you were being sarcastic.

And to willstev:
If the religion didn't put the emphasis on Jesus it wouldn't be Christian.

kelly1

Wicknight wrote: »

Yes, its called Islam

That gave me a laugh!

robindch

Personally, I'd have said Messianic Judaism myself, but Wicknight is pretty much on target too.

FYI to our christian brethren -- Jesus is an important player in Islam and is believed by most muslims to have done pretty much the same things that christians believe he did. That includes him being sent by god, being born of a mother who was a virgin and no father, performing miracles, praying to god, interceding on people's behalf, ascending bodily into heaven to return at some point in the future to judge everybody. And a few more bits and bobs. The principal difference is that muslims don't believe that he's the "son" of god (they believe god is too big to do that), they don't believe that the "holy spirit" exists (the bible is pretty much silent on this too) and they don't believe that you have to believe Jesus in order to stay alive when you die (that concept doesn't exist in islam as it does in christianity).

In terms of Jesus being a messenger from god to humanity christianity and islam are, to a considerable extent, indistinguishable.

Of course, wars have been fought in reply to Wicknight's comment, but only with a limited degree of resolution. So it's good to see christians enjoying the jibe!

Michael G

If the OP was even a little bit serious in his question, then yes there is a sect called the Unitarian Church, which used to have a chapel on St Stephen's Green and indeed may still have it, which has some curious beliefs about who is God and who isn't. I understand that they don't believe in the Trinity but consider themselves Christian.

Zombrex

BrianCalgary wrote: »

First of all, Islam is not Christianity.
...
If the religion didn't put the emphasis on Jesus it wouldn't be Christian.

Waits for penny to drop ...

PDN

robindch wrote: »

they don't believe that the "holy spirit" exists (the bible is pretty much silent on this too)

Yeah, the Bible only mentions the Holy Spirit 78 times in the Old Testament and 235 times in the New Testament. :rolleyes:

robindch

PDN wrote:

Yeah, the Bible only mentions the Holy Spirit 78 times in the Old Testament and 235 times in the New Testament.

That rather depends on whether you naively believe that every occurrence of the English word 'holy' next to the English word 'spirit' in your favorite translation actually refers to the same 'holy spirit' that one is enjoined not to deny in the NT.

PDN

robindch wrote: »

That rather depends on whether you naively believe that every occurrence of the English word 'holy' next to the English word 'spirit' in your favorite translation actually refers to the same 'holy spirit' that one is enjoined not to deny in the NT.

So you are claiming that the Bible is "pretty much silent" about the Holy Spirit but keeps referring to something else which it calls "the Holy Spirit" but isn't really the Holy Spirit?

And I thought some of the claims in the Creationism thread were bizarre.

robindch

PDN wrote:

So you are claiming that the Bible is "pretty much silent" about the Holy Spirit but keeps referring to something else which it calls "the Holy Spirit" but isn't really the Holy Spirit?

In terms of the attributes about the Holy Spirit -- what I was posting about -- the bible is virtually entirely silent, as you know quite well. And that's why, lacking anything much definite to say about the Holy Spirit, the various Creeds have chosen, rather wisely, to say little or nothing. Agreeing on a place for Jesus in the great scheme of things was enough trouble.

Of course, it is possible, like many (most?) recent translations, to capitalize the English words "holy" and "spirit" when they're next to each other, or can be levered next to each other, and suddenly the Holy Spirit's everywhere. A manufactured omnipresence of which Chomsky would be proud.

A more mature reading shows that most instances of the two words in the OT, and many in the NT, refer to various non-specific spirits, souls, essences, intentions, moods and so on in various states and degrees of ritual purity and distance from, and connection to, the main deity.

PDN

robindch wrote: »

In terms of the attributes about the Holy Spirit -- what I was posting about -- the bible is virtually entirely silent, as you know quite well.

No, let me remind you what you posted:

they don't believe that the "holy spirit" exists (the bible is pretty much silent on this too

You were posting about the existence of the Holy Spirit, not his attributes.

I'm on my way out now. If you want I'll post a few of these 'silent' references to the Holy Spirit when I get back.

robindch

PDN wrote:

You were posting about the existence of the Holy Spirit, not his attributes.

It's rather pointless to propose the existence of something and not mention of any attributes to go along with it. How are you supposed to know what to believe in? As a believer, you could be believing in completely the wrong thing. And as the NT warns very explicitly, denying the existence of the right kind of Holy Spirit could blot your name with an unforgivable sin.

However, I may be completely wrong in thinking that the HS isn't well defined. I'd certainly be interested to see a few of those quotes where the HS is clearly and unambiguously referred to, and where its attributes are clearly defined? In the OT, if that's not too much trouble. Thanks.

PDN

robindch wrote: »

It's rather pointless to propose the existence of something and not mention of any attributes to go along with it. How are you supposed to know what to believe in?

Let's stop trying to change the subject. If you want to argue about the attributes of the Holy Spirit then you are free to do so. If, however, you make false claims about His existence and whether the Bible has anything to say about Him then you may expect to be challenged. Another poster asked me recently why I bother posting here, since there's so little prospect of anyone changing their mind. My answer was that I don't like the idea of people making false statements about Christianity or the Bible and letting them go unchallenged. Trying to change the subject will not make me go away.

And as the NT warns very explicitly, denying the existence of the right kind of Holy Spirit could blot your name with an unforgivable sin.

Not true. The NT warns that blasphemy against the Spirit could constitute the unforgivable sin. The context is that the Pharisees were ascribing the work of the Holy Spirit to Satan, not denying His existence - and certainly nothing to do with believing in 'the right kind of Holy Spirit'. That is a complete invention.

However, I may be completely wrong in thinking that the HS isn't well defined. I'd certainly be interested to see a few of those quotes where the HS is clearly and unambiguously referred to, and where its attributes are clearly defined? In the OT, if that's not too much trouble. Thanks.

If you had stated that the Old Testament is pretty much silent about the Holy Spirit's attributes, then that would be a reasonable request. However, it is a totally unreasonable request given that you claimed the Bible is pretty much silence about the existence of the Holy Spirit.

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. (Matthew 28:19)

Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit. (Mark 13:11)

It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not die before he had seen the Lord's Christ. (Luke 2:26)

If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him! (Luke 11:13)

And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. (Luke 12:10)

But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. (John 14:26)

until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen (Acts 1:2)

But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth. (Acts 1:8)

Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through the mouth of David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus (Acts 1:16)

Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. (Acts 2:33)

Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38)

Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land?" (Acts 5:3)

We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him. (Acts 5:32)

You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit! (Acts 7:51)

When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:15)

Then the church throughout Judea, Galilee and Samaria enjoyed a time of peace. It was strengthened; and encouraged by the Holy Spirit, it grew in numbers, living in the fear of the Lord. (Acts 9:31)

how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him. (Acts 10:38)

While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. (Acts 10:44)

While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them." (Acts 13:2)

The two of them, sent on their way by the Holy Spirit, went down to Seleucia and sailed from there to Cyprus. (Acts 13:4)

God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. (Acts 15:8)

It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: (Acts 15:28)

Paul and his companions traveled throughout the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been kept by the Holy Spirit from preaching the word in the province of Asia. (Acts 16:6)

and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit." (acts 19:2)

I only know that in every city the Holy Spirit warns me that prison and hardships are facing me. (Acts 20:23)

Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. (Acts 20:28)

Coming over to us, he took Paul's belt, tied his own hands and feet with it and said, "The Holy Spirit says, 'In this way the Jews of Jerusalem will bind the owner of this belt and will hand him over to the Gentiles.' " (Acts 21:11)

They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul had made this final statement: "The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your forefathers when he said through Isaiah the prophet: (Acts 28:25)

And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us. (Romans 5:5)

to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles with the priestly duty of proclaiming the gospel of God, so that the Gentiles might become an offering acceptable to God, sanctified by the Holy Spirit. (Romans 15:16)

Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; (1 Corinthians 6:19)

Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:3)

May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. (2 Corinthians 13:14)

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, (Ephesians 1:13)

And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. (Ephesians 4:30)

You became imitators of us and of the Lord; in spite of severe suffering, you welcomed the message with the joy given by the Holy Spirit. (1 Thessalonians 1:6)

Guard the good deposit that was entrusted to you—guard it with the help of the Holy Spirit who lives in us. (2 Timothy 1:14)

God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will. (Hebrews 2:4)

So, as the Holy Spirit says: "Today, if you hear his voice, (Hebrews 3:7)

The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still standing. (Hebrews 9:8)

The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. (Hebrews 10:15)

It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. (1 Peter 1:12)

For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. (2 Peter 1:21)

But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit. (Jude 1:20)

So, Robin, do you want to stand over your claim that the Bible is pretty much silent about the existence of the Holy Spirit? Even better, do you really want to claim that in all the above verses the words 'Holy' and 'Spirit' just happen to be beside each other without actually meaning anything?

robindch

PDN wrote:

Let's stop trying to change the subject. [...] Trying to change the subject will not make me go away.

I'm not trying to change the subject or make you go away, but rather to clarify a lesser point in a larger post on a separate topic. The point was made late at night and was neither accurately nor clearly made, for which errors, of course, I apologize and I'll try again.

Parts of the bible are accepted by islam as true, where they do not conflict with the koran which they believe is the pure and incorrupt word of god delivered to clarify what they claim is an earlier corrupted message. These parts that are generally accepted are referred to as the Tawrat (probably cognate with Torah) and are generally held to consist of the Pentateuch (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy), the Psalms and the Injil (possibly cognate with evangel*), generally held to be the message delivered to Jesus. There is no agreement within islam concerning which part, if any, of the NT the Injil actually refers to and the texts therefore tend to be ignored. Consequently, bearing in mind that the books of the OT listed above -- the books common between christianity and islam which I generally had in mind throughout this thread -- are virtually silent on the topic of the HS, islam therefore does not accept the dogma of the HS.

Turning to christianity, do you not find it unusual that the OT fails to make much mention of the HS? I'd certainly be interested to see some of the 78 occurrences that you talk about in the OT, because this PDF of the KJV translation (which I've chosen because of its high status with many believers, regardless of its accuracy or otherwise as a translation; I assume the PDF is accurate) I can find no occurrences of the words "holy ghost" in the OT, and only three occurrences of the words "holy spirit", none of which seem to refer unambiguously to the HS of the NT.

PDN

robindch wrote: »

Turning to christianity, do you not find it unusual that the OT fails to make much mention of the HS? I'd certainly be interested to see some of the 78 occurrences that you talk about in the OT, because this PDF of the KJV translation (which I've chosen because of its high status with many believers, regardless of its accuracy or otherwise as a translation; I assume the PDF is accurate) I can find no occurrences of the words "holy ghost" in the OT, and only three occurrences of the words "holy spirit", none of which seem to refer unambiguously to the HS of the NT.

Well, since we are now in agreement that the Bible has a lot to say about the Holy Spirit, let's look at the Old Testament.

The Holy Spirit is often referred to as "the Spirit of God" in the Old Testament. So we people being filled with the Spirit of God, whereas in the New Testament they are filled with the Holy Spirit. Similarly Matthew, writing for a Jewish audience, refers to "the Spirit of God" descending on Jesus at His baptism (Matthew 3:16), whereas Mark and John say "the Spirit" (Mark 1:10; John 1:32) and Luke says "the Holy Spirit" (Luke 3:22). It is clear that "the Spirit of God" is a synonym for the Holy Spirit. "The Spirit of The Lord" is also used in both Old and New Testaments to denote the Holy Spirit.

I do not find it unusual in the slightest that the Old Testament refers to the Holy Spirit much less than the New Testament. The Holy Spirit's ministry, in as much as He directly touches people's lives, is primarily connected with glorifying Jesus after the Day of Pentecost. Therefore I would be shocked and amazed to find continual references to the Spirit on every other page of the Old Testament as we do with the New Testament.