Should the government give more help to reatilers?

Diceicle

Do you think the goverment needs to do more to protect Irish retailers in the current economic environment? whether that be grants or a reduction in tax et al. As it nears xmas again and the shops are doing a good trade it would seem, however, the thousands of people who have travelled to New York to spend their money coupled with a 50% increase on last year for internet based shopping, which presumably will be coming from abroad, all points to prices being too high for people to buy a large portion of their gifts in Dublin stores. A large part of the high prices (it seems to me) lies with the government in taxes and the extortionate price of retail property in our capital city. I realise this is a competitive market but surely the government needs to help our smaller retailers in this market. Any thoughts?

Time Magazine

It's a ludicrous idea to provide grants to retailers and tax receipts are low enough.

kaiser sauze

Nope, survival of the fittest, and if retailers stood up to landlords better then rents would not be skyrocketing perpetually.

We live in a capitalist society and so it should be.

mike65

Roffles! Is this a socialist state? Shall we nationalise shops?

Mike.

DublinWriter

Great idea! Let's subsidise the retailers who enjoy large mark-ups while our Health System is total under-funded.

Pure genius. Have you ever considered joining the PDs? I believe they have a vacancy for a leader right now.

Time Magazine

DublinWriter wrote: »

our Health System is total under-funded.

Are you mad?

mike65

Not sure how a suggestion to subsidise shops = PD leadership tbh.

Mike.

Time Magazine

If you include the assertion that the health service is totally underfunded, I guess you can end up anywhere.

silverharp

Diceicle wrote: »

Do you think the goverment needs to do more to protect Irish retailers in the current economic environment? whether that be grants or a reduction in tax et al. As it nears xmas again and the shops are doing a good trade it would seem, however, the thousands of people who have travelled to New York to spend their money coupled with a 50% increase on last year for internet based shopping, which presumably will be coming from abroad, all points to prices being too high for people to buy a large portion of their gifts in Dublin stores. A large part of the high prices (it seems to me) lies with the government in taxes and the extortionate price of retail property in our capital city. I realise this is a competitive market but surely the government needs to help our smaller retailers in this market. Any thoughts?

the other main reason why prices are high are that irish people obviously buy too much crap that they dont need. if shoppers didnt run up credit card debt then prices would be much lower

kaiser sauze

silverharp wrote: »

the other main reason why prices are high are that irish people obviously buy too much crap that they dont need. if shoppers didnt run up credit card debt then prices would be much lower

This logic escapes me?

Diceicle

The large markups stuck onto products by Irish retailers are large due to the overheads of operating in the city centre. I'm not in retail myself but I do think the money is steadily flowing more and more out of Ireland in favour of cheaper items abroad. I've done 80% of my shopping online the other meagre 20% is a concious decision to try to give money to independent stores in Dublin. I think it would be a shame to have Dublin full of identical imported chain stores like top-shop, H&M, BT2 etc and lose some of the more quirky places. Its not a question of giving retailers a free reign to milk the public but a chance to survive in an increasingly costly business environment. Besides which the government is losing a ton of money (more each year) due to its heavy taxes on goods. Surely its better to do something with the tax to disuade people from internet shopping and travelling to New York?

silverharp

kaiser sauze wrote: »

This logic escapes me?

Irish people here are not thrifty or price conscious. Remember when the VAT rate was reduced from 21% to 20%, and prices didn't come down so the rate was moved back to 21%, I'd blame it on consumers for not voting with their feet.
An example comes to mind the prices for the Sony centre in Dundrum are higher then the city centre branches, people obviously aren't voting with their feet, thus justifying the high/er rents. If consumers were more canny prices would drop thus forcing rents down, win win.

Colonel Sanders

apart from it being a ludicrous idea surely the EU would have something to say about this?

jmayo

Diceicle wrote: »

Do you think the goverment needs to do more to protect Irish retailers in the current economic environment? whether that be grants or a reduction in tax et al. As it nears xmas again and the shops are doing a good trade it would seem, however, the thousands of people who have travelled to New York to spend their money coupled with a 50% increase on last year for internet based shopping, which presumably will be coming from abroad, all points to prices being too high for people to buy a large portion of their gifts in Dublin stores. A large part of the high prices (it seems to me) lies with the government in taxes and the extortionate price of retail property in our capital city. I realise this is a competitive market but surely the government needs to help our smaller retailers in this market. Any thoughts?

Is this a p*** take, it has to be ?
Are we the taxpayers meant to now subsidise the retailers along with the developers and the builders ?
I buy almost all of my camera gear and electronics on the net because prices are just too high here. Why pay a high street shop in Ireland €1000 for a camera you can buy from Germany for €800?
It would probably be even cheaper if bought from Hong Kong or States.

Within last year I have spent about €3000 on stuff from foreign based retailers that would have cost near €4000 if bought in retail outlets in Ireland.
That is a big saving even after factoring in delivery charges.
As the saying goes "Do the Maths".

PS I also have gotten a free can of beer included in package from German outlet. It was a nice touch that I never received from any of my Irish suppliers.

moe_sizlak

DublinWriter wrote: »

Great idea! Let's subsidise the retailers who enjoy large mark-ups while our Health System is total under-funded.

Pure genius. Have you ever considered joining the PDs? I believe they have a vacancy for a leader right now.

our health system is not underfunded

Tea drinker

Sure isn't the high prices we pay in the shops a levy?
I too buy thousands of euro of stuff from the states, way cheaper.
Irish people toooo greedy! me no like to give my money
And another thing! Why go to shop in places where the attititude is what do YOU want, ah jaysus I was relaxing there!
let them go out of business. Who is going to subsidise the car dealers , depressed IT workers, politicians needing a dig out? Oh GOD where does this end?

gandalf

Simple answer is no way. They have to adjust to the market. If the so called big brands are serious about selling in our market there shouldn't be such a large difference in cost of their goods on this side of the world compared to elsewhere. Its our right to shop around and get the best value possible and I certainly don't want to subsidise businesses that are not efficient. Just look at the VHI to see a bloated organisation that is leeching money from the taxpayer.

leninbenjamin

the problem with Irish retail as i see it: incompetence/ignorance.

it's absolutely futile trying to compete with the internet stores on prices. the guy operating out of a warehouse will always win.
the vast majority don't realise that the only way they can get people to spend their money is by improving the shopper experience. more selection, better store layout, better customer care, knowledgeable staff and so on. instead they cut corners, cram shops with the same product over and over and treat customers like cattle or in some cases disdain.

it's hilarious to hear retailers giving out about Irish people spending abroad though. typically they are among the first to book the flights to NY if anecdotal evidence is anything to go by.

(note the above post is full of generalisations. i'm aware of this but still believe my points valid)

LostinBlanch

mike65 wrote: »

Not sure how a suggestion to subsidise shops = PD leadership tbh.

Shop around:rolleyes:

Alun

it's absolutely futile trying to compete with the internet stores on prices.

That's the same all over the world .. Ireland isn't unique in that respect.

But, given that, why is it that Irish retailers aren't jumping on the Internet bandwagon as well? If ever I'm thinking of buying something online, and Google around looking for online retailers, it's very, very rare that an Irish company pops up, and if they do, the prices are still way higher than anyone from the UK or mainland Europe, even when taking into account the sometimes exorbitant postage costs. There are one or two exceptions (such as memoryc.com) but on the whole Ireland just seems to be a black hole as far as Internet online stores are concerned.

bonkey

Take a simple parallel...

Over the past decade or two, prices in pubs have gone up and up and up.....far outstripping any justifiable cost-increases.

Then, once some invisible threshold was crossed for whatever factors, people discovered in droves that going down the pub was simply not worth it any more. So they bought offy and drank at home, or did something other than go down the pub.

Who's to blame? The off-licences for being cheaper than the pubs? The non-pub businesses, for giving people something else to do? The public, for not continuing to blindly convert earnings into beer-tokens? The government, for not removing tax on beer in pubs?

I remember a thread some while ago about someone ordering a PC from Dell and asking why - even after VAT and conversion rates - the PC they were ordering was cheaper in the UK than in Ireland. The answer was that the Irish were willing to pay more...so the punter in question asked for (and received) the UK price.

While I'm no fan of big business wiping out the independant retailer through unfair practices like loss-leading or market oversaturation, there is no excuse for offering undue protection. If rents are too high, then yes - business will close until property owners realise that they've priced themselves out of the game. If businesses are taking too much margin, then yes, some will fold until they realise that Joe Q Public isn't as stupid as they thought.

Where I think the OP is coming from, reminds me of the mindset that globalisation is OK, as long as we only take the bits of benefit to us. Of course...if everyone did that, we'd be back to where we were before globalisation arrived....and some other OP would be complaining about how unfair it was that the government taxed imports to unfairly protect local business, and how they should be able to buy off the internet or fly to New York all they wanted if thats how they chose to spend their money.

jmayo

leninbenjamin wrote: »

the problem with Irish retail as i see it: incompetence/ignorance.

it's absolutely futile trying to compete with the internet stores on prices. the guy operating out of a warehouse will always win.
the vast majority don't realise that the only way they can get people to spend their money is by improving the shopper experience. more selection, better store layout, better customer care, knowledgeable staff and so on. instead they cut corners, cram shops with the same product over and over and treat customers like cattle or in some cases disdain.

it's hilarious to hear retailers giving out about Irish people spending abroad though. typically they are among the first to book the flights to NY if anecdotal evidence is anything to go by.

(note the above post is full of generalisations. i'm aware of this but still believe my points valid)

I don't care about the shopping experience, what the store looks like, if there is better selection in the shop when I am forking out nearly €1000 plus for a piece of equipment that I can get from Germany for €800.

What I may do is physically check out the equipment in Ireland, make a decision and then go order it on the net.

I do agree that the staff in our shops are often ignorant and downright rude to their customers, which makes it more gratifying to waste their time knowing that you will spend your money elsewhere.

Even after applying discounts/sales prices offered here the goods are still cheaper to get through the net.

It boils down to money in the end.

sovtek

bonkey wrote: »

....and some other OP would be complaining about how unfair it was that the government taxed imports to unfairly protect local business, and how they should be able to buy off the internet or fly to New York all they wanted if thats how they chose to spend their money.

In fairness that would have been the heads of large corporations doing the complaining. Thats assuming the local businesses weren't screwing everyone.
Unfortunately most Irish businesses are.

Boggle

What I may do is physically check out the equipment in Ireland, make a decision and then go order it on the net.

And there's the problem. You want the shop to go to the expense of keeping a sales floor and retail staff so that you can look at it for free and then order it from someone who doesn't have to cover these overheads.

As to why Ireland can be more expensive - I would probably agree that there is an element of greed but more so I'd say its just because this is a pathetic country to do business in...

sovtek

Boggle wrote: »

As to why Ireland can be more expensive - I would probably agree that there is an element of greed but more so I'd say its just because this is a pathetic country to do business in...

Actually it's a great country to do business in if you are already established. It's a license to print money basically. There seems to be this kind of Bermuda Triangle effect, whereas everything that gets exported from Ireland gets cheaper and everything that gets imported gets more expensive.
I don't have the least bit of sympathy for any irish business(men). They've been price gouging since Jan 1 2002 and have had no compunction about taking our money. My only hope is that'll force the government to finally confront at least some of the cartels in ireland and the competition authority will start kicking in doors and dragging rich fukcs out of their D4 homes(ok it's probably a bit of a fantasy). Oh and at least some of them will be ****ed and rightly so.

John R

Boggle wrote: »

And there's the problem. You want the shop to go to the expense of keeping a sales floor and retail staff so that you can look at it for free and then order it from someone who doesn't have to cover these overheads.

That's cock. I have been looking to buy a specific electronic product for the last few weeks and dealing with retailers in Ireland is really the most frustrating experience. They do not deliver on any front; prices are high, choice is poor, sales staff are often rude dismissive and ignorant and to top it all after-sales service often comes down to threats of court action.

Meanwhile I can look online and find dozens of UK based independent high-street retailers who also sell online that can and do compete with the massive chain stores and internet retailers on price and service. Even if they cannot be the absolute cheapest they are close enough that I would be happy to buy from knowing that I had somewhere local to go if there was a problem rather than have to deal with the often poor CS of certain big online retailers that Irish retailers have forced me to do business with.

Retailers in Ireland (large and small) have benefited hugely from the boom coupled with the lazy attitude of irish consumers. As the purses tighten there is a perfect opportunity for a few to actually offer excellent prices and service as others go under rather than complain about the unfairness of it all.

leninbenjamin

Alun wrote: »

But, given that, why is it that Irish retailers aren't jumping on the Internet bandwagon as well? If ever I'm thinking of buying something online, and Google around looking for online retailers, it's very, very rare that an Irish company pops up, and if they do, the prices are still way higher than anyone from the UK or mainland Europe, even when taking into account the sometimes exorbitant postage costs. There are one or two exceptions (such as memoryc.com) but on the whole Ireland just seems to be a black hole as far as Internet online stores are concerned.

I'd wager that's at least in part due to the lack of broadband penetration. it's really only the urbanized areas which have full penetration, and these are the areas with the higher rents. as internet shopping advantage is in primarily keeping costs down an Irish online store would almost certainly be at an instant disadvantage before it even launches.

then factor in market size, ours is still relatively small, so online traders might not be able to trade in the scale needed to keep costs competitive yet with our price levels in this country costs would still be too high for them to be able to compete internationally.

then there is the geographic element. we're on the periphery of Europe so we're always going to have higher transport costs than a lot of states.

we're just a country that isn't hugely conducive to it yet i think. there's probably a lot of scope to improve on this type of thing but it would require huge levels of improvement with infrastructure.

edit:

jmayo wrote: »

I don't care about the shopping experience, what the store looks like, if there is better selection in the shop when I am forking out nearly €1000 plus for a piece of equipment that I can get from Germany for €800.

What I may do is physically check out the equipment in Ireland, make a decision and then go order it on the net.

I do agree that the staff in our shops are often ignorant and downright rude to their customers, which makes it more gratifying to waste their time knowing that you will spend your money elsewhere.

Even after applying discounts/sales prices offered here the goods are still cheaper to get through the net.

It boils down to money in the end.

For you perhaps but I did say I was making generalisations in that post. however research into this type of area has gone a long way too proving that the overall shopping experience is hugely important to the intake. there's an entire branch of psychology that's dedicated to this type of area, so it obviously does have an impact.

there are certain things though all right that we'll never have a decent choice of retailers in (like instruments and larger niche technological items in my own experience) primarily due the lack of a sufficient market. but there are areas in which there would be potential for huge improvements, fashion being the dominant one i can think of.

bk

leninbenjamin wrote:

then factor in market size, ours is still relatively small, so online traders might not be able to trade in the scale needed to keep costs competitive yet with our price levels in this country costs would still be too high for them to be able to compete internationally.

Guernsey and Jersey Islands have very small populations and are most certainly on the periphery of Europe, yet they are the biggest exporters in Europe of CD's and DVD's.

Of course this is because of tax reasons, but just making the point that even small countries/regions can compete on the web very well.

One area that really proves to me the greed of Irish retailers is books. There is zero VAT on books here in Ireland, yet books in the US are almost half the price you pay here in Ireland for the exact same book. :mad:

djpbarry

Diceicle wrote: »

I think it would be a shame to have Dublin full of identical imported chain stores like top-shop, H&M, BT2 etc and lose some of the more quirky places.

While I share your frustration at seeing the Dublin shopping experience becoming so one-dimensional, the only thing that will change this is if people's attitudes change. Shops close because people don't shop there - there is nothing the government can do about it.

Besides, some small, independent retailers are just as culpable when it comes to extortion as the bigger retailers - a certain DIY store on Capel Street in Dublin springs to mind.

bonkey wrote: »

If rents are too high, then yes - business will close until property owners realise that they've priced themselves out of the game. If businesses are taking too much margin, then yes, some will fold until they realise that Joe Q Public isn't as stupid as they thought.

I would of this opinion myself. Prices cannot continue to increase indefinitely - it's not sustainable. By definition, anything that is unsustainable cannot sustain itself. Irish consumers will have to become thriftier in the not-too-distant future and retailers will have to adapt.

bonkey wrote: »

Where I think the OP is coming from, reminds me of the mindset that globalisation is OK, as long as we only take the bits of benefit to us.

I don't see any problem with questioning certain aspects of globalisation - it's a pretty broad term after all.

jmayo wrote: »

I don't care about the shopping experience, what the store looks like, if there is better selection in the shop when I am forking out nearly €1000 plus for a piece of equipment that I can get from Germany for €800.

The "shopping experience", (not a term I would use very often) is important to some. For example, I avoid the "catalogue-shopping experience" at all costs - can't stand the place. They've taken the worst aspects of conventional retailers (ignorant, stupid staff, as few checkouts as possible and as many skangers as you can fit in one premises) and combined them with the disadvantages of shopping online (you can't examine the products properly before you buy) and yet people still go their in droves. Boggles the mind.

John R wrote: »

Retailers in Ireland (large and small) have benefited hugely from the boom coupled with the lazy attitude of irish consumers.

That's it in a nutshell.

leninbenjamin wrote: »

then factor in market size, ours is still relatively small...

But still quite lucrative, given the amount of disposable income available to Irish consumers.

leninbenjamin wrote: »

there are areas in which there would be potential for huge improvements, fashion being the dominant one i can think of.

Fashion?!? Care to elaborate?

Pete4779

kaiser sauze wrote: »

Nope, survival of the fittest, and if retailers stood up to landlords better then rents would not be skyrocketing perpetually.

We live in a capitalist society and so it should be.

I'm sure you'll be happy when you do all your shopping for everything at a giant Tesco somewhere in Athlone. That's the natural "result" of uncontrolled capitalism.

We're meant to be deciding what sort of country we live in, not a bunch of multinationals. If it was truly survival of the fittest, you'll have no problem with being fired tomorrow then for someone who will do your job as well but for €50 less a year.

kaiser sauze

Pete4779 wrote: »

I'm sure you'll be happy when you do all your shopping for everything at a giant Tesco somewhere in Athlone. That's the natural "result" of uncontrolled capitalism.

We're meant to be deciding what sort of country we live in, not a bunch of multinationals. If it was truly survival of the fittest, you'll have no problem with being fired tomorrow then for someone who will do your job as well but for €50 less a year.

And the planning laws are there to prevent your scenario from happening. :rolleyes:

Absolutely terrible idea.

Tea drinker

Pete4779 wrote: »

I'm sure you'll be happy when you do all your shopping for everything at a giant Tesco somewhere in Athlone. That's the natural "result" of uncontrolled capitalism.

We're meant to be deciding what sort of country we live in, not a bunch of multinationals. If it was truly survival of the fittest, you'll have no problem with being fired tomorrow then for someone who will do your job as well but for €50 less a year.

Ehh yeah, that IS happening! A profitable company is pulling out of Ireland because they want to make BIGGER profits somewhere else!

Anyway x2 for the planning laws controlling megashops. If the corrupt politicians or councillors can be paid enough to ignore bribes.

I still do my grocery shopping in a few different places, including farmers markets, NOT the cheapest but good quality, good service, and with a smile. Different to service with a smirk ya know!

Stop paying for other peoples lifestyles - use the money you earn to finance YOUR lifestyle. If you are feeling charitable, don't give it to an overpriced shop, give it to starving kids, sightsavers etc.

Diceicle

jmayo wrote: »

Is this a p*** take, it has to be ?
Are we the taxpayers meant to now subsidise the retailers along with the developers and the builders ?
I buy almost all of my camera gear and electronics on the net because prices are just too high here. Why pay a high street shop in Ireland €1000 for a camera you can buy from Germany for €800?
It would probably be even cheaper if bought from Hong Kong or States.

Within last year I have spent about €3000 on stuff from foreign based retailers that would have cost near €4000 if bought in retail outlets in Ireland.
That is a big saving even after factoring in delivery charges.
As the saying goes "Do the Maths".

PS I also have gotten a free can of beer included in package from German outlet. It was a nice touch that I never received from any of my Irish suppliers.

You buy your camera gear from Germany because its cheaper. Same reason I've done most of my xmas shopping online this year. As I previously stated, the prices in Ireland are high for a variety of reasons and a large part of the high prices are high taxes and high overheads. Not all Irish retailers are creaming it. I should be clear here and say that the section of retail I'm concerned for is the independent retailer. I think it would be a shame for Dublin streets and become a "little England" as regards the stores on offer. Any breaks given to independent retailers would be done to give them a better chance to survive against larger competition as opposed to give retailers a better chance to screw the public.

jmayo

Diceicle wrote: »

You buy your camera gear from Germany because its cheaper. Same reason I've done most of my xmas shopping online this year. As I previously stated, the prices in Ireland are high for a variety of reasons and a large part of the high prices are high taxes and high overheads. Not all Irish retailers are creaming it. I should be clear here and say that the section of retail I'm concerned for is the independent retailer. I think it would be a shame for Dublin streets and become a "little England" as regards the stores on offer. Any breaks given to independent retailers would be done to give them a better chance to survive against larger competition as opposed to give retailers a better chance to screw the public.

Yes it is somehting that has been happening here over last 10 odd years.
The multinationals have copped on to the fact that we are spending like mad eejits so they are moving in.
Why else would Harvey Norman, Argos, Harvey Nichols, Hosue of fRaser etc be setting up here. They want to cash in.
The sad thing that is happening here, is what you will see in lots of French towns or in American towns. There are out of town shopping centres going up and you have large department stores or multifunction stores opening.
The local small shops are closing, they cannot compete.
It may be sad, but that also does not mean that I should pay way above what I would pay by shopping around to keepthem in business.
A big problem here is that operating costs are high, but also markups can be high if they feel they can get away with it.

To the other poster who complains I check out the goods in an Irish shop.
It is so great to spend sometime in the presence of some of these oh so mighty shop assistants when they deem you worthy of their attention.
Afterall they have to discuss the night beofre ortext their friend about someone on bebo.
I have found some people in camera shops who think you are about do a smash and grab, whereas you get some patronising little geek in a computer shop who thinks the internet was invented by either Bill Gates or Linus Torvalds and how would you know anything.
It makes it all the more enjoyable when you just walk