'Giving yourself to Jesus' / 'Surrendering to God'

beans

I need to get some clarification on this from Christians.

Is it a basic tenant of Chritianity that you give your life to Jesus, and only by accepting Jesus as your personal saviour do you really begin to experience Christianity? Or give yourself up to God, or something similar?

I'm trying to reconcile my own beliefs with those of Christians around me, I'm starting to make sense of it all, and the notion of 'surrendering yourself to god' has become central to what I'm mulling over.

Thoughts please, before I expand on my line of thought?

PDN

beans wrote: »

I need to get some clarification on this from Christians.

Is it a basic tenant of Chritianity that you give your life to Jesus, and only by accepting Jesus as your personal saviour do you really begin to experience Christianity? Or give yourself up to God, or something similar?

I'm trying to reconcile my own beliefs with those of Christians around me, I'm starting to make sense of it all, and the notion of 'surrendering yourself to god' has become central to what I'm mulling over.

Thoughts please, before I expand on my line of thought?

What you describe would be true of those of us who are evangelical, or 'born again' Christians. We would hold that Christianity is something you consciously choose to embrace (rather than an accident of birth) and this occurs when you make the decision to accept Christ as your Saviour and put your faith in Him. This necessarily involves repentance - which simply means a u-turn or turnaround to live a different kind of life. This new life means accepting the lordship, or authority, of Jesus Christ so we can't just live life according to our own feelings and impulses.

Other versions of Christianity see things differently. For example, Roman Catholicism would teach that you become a Christian by being baptised as a baby. That is why Bertie Ahern, speaking at Charlie Haughey's funeral, stated that old Charlie was saved "by virtue of his baptism".

Splendour

I second what PDN has written. A personal relationship is the only way to go, as we hear in the words of the late great Johnny Cash:



"Personal Jesus"

Your own, personal, Jesus
someone to hear your prayers,
someone who cares

Your own, personal, Jesus
someone to hear your prayers,
someone who's there

Feeling unknown
and you're all alone,
flesh and bone,
by the telephone,
lift up the receiver,
i'll make you a believer

Take second best,
put me to the test,
things on your chest,
you need to confess,
i will deliver,
you know i'm a forgiver

Reach out and touch faith
Reach out and touch faith

Your own, personal, Jesus
someone to hear your prayers,
someone who cares

Your own, personal, Jesus
someone to hear your prayers,
someone to care

Feeling unknown
and you're all alone,
flesh and bone,
by the telephone,
lift up the receiver,
i'll make you a believer
i will deliver,
you know i'm a forgiver

Reach out and touch faith
Reach out and touch faith
Reach out and touch faith

Reach out and touch faith

beans

I always had a problem with infant baptism to be honest.

My thoughts centred around the Christian idea of 'only through Jesus can you be saved' and the Buddhist notion of letting go of the self, or the ego, before attaining enlightenment; no doubt each concept brings forth a raft of points that will negate what I'm thinking, but that's why I'm posting.

Last night it came to me that these were different ways of looking at the same thing. If you deny your own 'self' and live through Jesus, by removing the 'I' and living as Jesus taught it's far easier to empathise, to stop seeking personal gratification, to help one another and 'do unto others'. This is (to my mind) analogous to the loss of attachment to the ego, a la Buddhism.

From there, I got thinking about god, or God, or a deity, a personification of some abstract. It struck me that giving up yourself to 'God' is a perfect means to the end of attaining this self-lessness, which is a precursor to living a life truly free from egotism, and truly open to saintly humanity. Could this be why 'God' the person was brought into being? The idea of being subordinate to a 'higher power' is something to which humans can identify, so 'God' the concept is a perfect vessel for the communication of this message.

This ties in with my own resoning that God is simply another way of describing the universe, and that JC understood that it's all about human interaction. His teachings are about helping us live together as humans. His invokation of 'God' served a purpose at the time, added the oomph to his arguments, but I'm not sure if 'God' has much of a place in today's society.

Thoughts from the Christians?

beans

Splendour wrote: »

I second what PDN has written. A personal relationship is the only way to go, as we hear in the words of the late great Johnny Cash:



"Personal Jesus"

Your own, personal, Jesus

Wasn't that Dave Gahan? In much the same way, couldn't the wisdom of Jesus just be another way of looking at the older wisdoms that were there all along, but unknown outside of an Eastern context?

I also have a problem with the idea that you can 'petition the lord with prayer', that there's 'someone to hear my prayers, someone who cares'...

AngryHippie

I was baptised, went to a St. something or other primary school went to a catholic secondary school, and strictly speaking I am a roman catholic, (communion, confirmation etc.) . However, I am not a practising catholic in the any sense of the word, I do not attend mass, except at Christmas, and occasional funerals/weddings. I do pray in my own way, and I do take time to reflect on decisions I have made and try to follow a good moral code based more or less on the tenets of catholic faith, with the exception of the rules regarding my sexuality, which I hold to be beyond the concern of any organized religion. Don't get me wrong, I am careful and respectful. But I refuse to allow anybody to tell me where or how I can enjoy that side of my personality.
I have never really surrendered myself to a notion of having a creator though, or to owing my existence to anyone other than my parents/grandparents. I'm not sure if this is of any real relevance to the arguement, but I think that surrendering yourself to God is really a slight cop out, as it belies your abilities to be the master of your own destiny to any extent, Which I have found to be one of the most profound human experiences for me.

Splendour

beans wrote: »

I always had a problem with infant baptism to be honest.

My thoughts centred around the Christian idea of 'only through Jesus can you be saved' and the Buddhist notion of letting go of the self, or the ego, before attaining enlightenment; no doubt each concept brings forth a raft of points that will negate what I'm thinking, but that's why I'm posting.

Last night it came to me that these were different ways of looking at the same thing. If you deny your own 'self' and live through Jesus, by removing the 'I' and living as Jesus taught it's far easier to empathise, to stop seeking personal gratification, to help one another and 'do unto others'. This is (to my mind) analogous to the loss of attachment to the ego, a la Buddhism.

From there, I got thinking about god, or God, or a deity, a personification of some abstract. It struck me that giving up yourself to 'God' is a perfect means to the end of attaining this self-lessness, which is a precursor to living a life truly free from egotism, and truly open to saintly humanity. Could this be why 'God' the person was brought into being? The idea of being subordinate to a 'higher power' is something to which humans can identify, so 'God' the concept is a perfect vessel for the communication of this message.

This ties in with my own resoning that God is simply another way of describing the universe, and that JC understood that it's all about human interaction. His teachings are about helping us live together as humans. His invokation of 'God' served a purpose at the time, added the oomph to his arguments, but I'm not sure if 'God' has much of a place in today's society.

Thoughts from the Christians?

You can go down the Buddhist line of 'enlightenment'. However,this is something you will be doing on your own merits and it most certainly won't save you.
Can Buddhism save you? No
Can Christianity save you-absolutely.
By giving yourself over to Jesus ie: accepting his gift of the cross, you are then a son of God and he has done the work of salvation for you. It is his merits that save you not your own.

The 'do unto others' is obviously a part of the Christian message but most people forget the first commandment of Christianity. They assume if you achieve 'goodness' then God will enter your life, wheras God says, put me first then the rest will follow...

"I am The Lord your God, Who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me." (Exodus 20:2-3

By going down the Buddhist or any path other than Christianity, you are not putting God first.

beans

By giving yourself over to Jesus ie: accepting his gift of the cross, you are then a son of God and he has done the work of salvation for you. It is his merits that save you not your own.

That's what I'm driving at, by accepting Jesus you accept his teachings and adapt them into your way of life. This removes a certain amount of 'self', you're giving yourself up to this higher power. You have adopted it's graces, you could say 'God is now workng through you', or 'Jesus lives in you'. I get this.

But this is the same as saying 'The ideals of human compassion that Jesus stood are carried on in you', cutting God out of the equation altogether. There's no God, just me and you, and it's our relationship that is real and is defined by our 'relationship' to Jesus. You are the father, the son, the holy spirit by proxy.

And this fundamental requirement of 'giving yourself over to Jesus' is what I see as analagous to Buddhist 'letting go of ego', facilitating self-less generosity etc... Do you see the parallels? Can't you see how it's your actions, be they in the name of 'insert Deity here', that define you as a person, and isn't that what ultimately matters?

Can <anything other than Christianity> save you? No
Can Christianity save you-absolutely.

I suppose that depends on your definition of 'saved', I believe both will leave the practitioner in the same both when the hour arrives - having lived a life full of love, compassion, etc and about to return whence they came

By going down the Buddhist or any path other than Christianity, you are not putting God first.

...which depends on your definition of God

PDN

beans wrote: »

But this is the same as saying 'The ideals of human compassion that Jesus stood are carried on in you', cutting God out of the equation altogether. There's no God, just me and you, and it's our relationship that is real and is defined by our 'relationship' to Jesus. You are the father, the son, the holy spirit by proxy.

In which case you should be honest enough to drop any mention of Jesus altogether, because what you are advocating is totally contrary to what Jesus taught.

"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." (Matthew 22:36-40)

Jesus was very explicit, to love God is more important than anything else He taught. Therefore, if you want to cut God out of the equation, then you are trying to pay lip service to Jesus while rejecting the very core of Jesus Christ's message.

BrianCalgary

Christianity values the individual. God has given each of us gifts, talents and personalities to be used in ways to benefit the world around us.

When we surrender to Jesus, we are saying, 'Jesus I want to live the life you have planned for me.'

The good part is that you will still get to do what you love using the talents God gave you.

For me I get to coach soccer, I get to teach Sunday school. I get to enjoy life, enjoy the fellowship of some great people. I don't have to give up my odd pint, or watching soccer or GAA. I don't have to give up going to movies or eating my favourite foods.

I get to live my life to the fullest because God knows me best and knows how to guide me into that full life.

At the same time I get to see the positive influence that results from my interactions with people and my teachings that are all based on the word of God.

I can't have thais full alife without Him.

AngryHippie

You speak of being saved, as if blind faith will count you among those saved, despite the final "judgment" I think that we are and would be judged by our actions, and our justification for those actions. If those actions are not in line with his moral teachings, then the blind faith will amount to nothing. If your actions were righteous, and the motivation for those actions was founded on good intention, then no judgment could condemn you for anything other than weak faith. In line with the Christian tradition of forgiveness, this would be easier to forgive than acts of cruelty in the name of God ?
Giving yourself to God removes a level of responsibility for actions deemed as necessary evils, whereas a clear moral responsibility and behaving accordingly, without a doubt leads to a better society !

For a better picture of what I mean by "necessary evils" see the video for "run christian, run" by the Super Furry animals

kelly1

beans wrote: »

I need to get some clarification on this from Christians.

Is it a basic tenant of Chritianity that you give your life to Jesus, and only by accepting Jesus as your personal saviour do you really begin to experience Christianity? Or give yourself up to God, or something similar?

I'm trying to reconcile my own beliefs with those of Christians around me, I'm starting to make sense of it all, and the notion of 'surrendering yourself to god' has become central to what I'm mulling over.

Thoughts please, before I expand on my line of thought?

Hello beans, here's my 2c...

The essence of the Christian life is forgetting self and giving yourself totally to God. God wants our love and our love of God should drive everything we do. It's is God's will that we keep His commandments by loving Him and our neighbour. Unfortunately sin is like a delicious cake laced with poison and it's a struggle not to give into temptation. But in doing God's will, we grow and mature spiritually. We become more like what God wants us to be.

People often fall into the trap of thinking that we loose out when we turn away from sin and towards God. Doing God's will gives peace and joy to the soul. I know, it's hard to give us old sinful habits but when we make the effort, God will reward us.

It's best to give yourself to Jesus because Jesus is the human face of God since He's both human and divine (google hypostatic union). It's easier for us to relate to a human face and by honouring Jesus we honour and glorify God.

God bless,
Noel.

beans

Good post (PDN)^ I admit I have limited knowledge of Jesus' teachings, and all this is just by the way of musing, trying to understand a little more on the subject. I'm a sunday-theologist at best Didn't mean that to be a pun

I was arguing for Jesus' teachings without the need for God, rather than God minus Jesus.

If you remove the mention of God, you're left with a wholly humanistic teaching, a pragmatic social contract that people can choose to enter into with obvious benefits to all. You can't have Jesus' teachings without Jesus, but you can have (the guts of ) them without God.

Aside from that pesky first one... I don't think much of what I say is going to fly with ye given that. "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind" (translated as "Give yourself up to the concept of god, place this before your own desires, your own thoughts, your own actions" and in doing this, in putting this ideal before your own flawed humanity, you are more likely to live a life full of moral goodness)

I believe God is fundamental to Jesus teachings insofar as it's the plot-device used to underline what Jesus has to say, to get past the ego. It's the concept of abandoning your moral substance to a divinity that is so powerful here, rather than the substance of the divinity itself...

"Word of God" = word of Jesus in as far as I can comprehend it. I don't mean to relegate God to the chisel that Jesus used to crack the nut of mankind, but...

<hides>

But seriously, that makes sense to me.

kelly1

beans wrote: »

My thoughts centred around the Christian idea of 'only through Jesus can you be saved' and the Buddhist notion of letting go of the self, or the ego, before attaining enlightenment; no doubt each concept brings forth a raft of points that will negate what I'm thinking, but that's why I'm posting.

Last night it came to me that these were different ways of looking at the same thing. If you deny your own 'self' and live through Jesus, by removing the 'I' and living as Jesus taught it's far easier to empathise, to stop seeking personal gratification, to help one another and 'do unto others'. This is (to my mind) analogous to the loss of attachment to the ego, a la Buddhism.

Buddhims and Christianity have very little in common. Like all false religions, Buddhism contains some truth but also lots of errors. Apart from that, Buddhism is agnostic and can't possibly be pleasing to God and of course Jesus is just another enlightened being according to Buddhism.

beans wrote: »

From there, I got thinking about god, or God, or a deity, a personification of some abstract. It struck me that giving up yourself to 'God' is a perfect means to the end of attaining this self-lessness, which is a precursor to living a life truly free from egotism, and truly open to saintly humanity. Could this be why 'God' the person was brought into being?

I'm not sure that self-lessness is the best word, unselfishness might be better. God loves us and wants to have a personal relationship with us. I could be wrong, but maybe your idea of God is a bit impersonal as if God is a face-less entity?

beans wrote: »

This ties in with my own resoning that God is simply another way of describing the universe, and that JC understood that it's all about human interaction. His teachings are about helping us live together as humans. His invokation of 'God' served a purpose at the time, added the oomph to his arguments, but I'm not sure if 'God' has much of a place in today's society.

Sorry, you're way off the mark there. God loves you personally. He created your soul out of love and it is His plan that you will someday live in Heaven in an eternal blissful union with God your Creator. God is best described as a Father. He loves His children, he's strong, kind, gentle and compassionate but will chastise a "bold" child when necessary. Like all good parents, God in only concerned with our ultimate happiness and the idea that God is a cruel task-master is totally wrong (not saying that you belive this )

God IS Love.

God bless,
Noel.

beans

me wrote:

His invokation of 'God' served a purpose at the time, added the oomph to his arguments, but I'm not sure if 'God' has much of a place in today's society.

Sorry, you're way off the mark there.

I agree, I meant to say that God is indeed a cornerstone of the whole message of Jesus; but as a concept aimed at freeing our minds of attachment, and enabling us to love unconditionally, without thinking in terms of 'personal' gain.

My early post was kind of mid-formulating-a-theory and somewhat muddled

kelly1

beans wrote: »

But this is the same as saying 'The ideals of human compassion that Jesus stood are carried on in you', cutting God out of the equation altogether. There's no God, just me and you, and it's our relationship that is real and is defined by our 'relationship' to Jesus. You are the father, the son, the holy spirit by proxy.

This is a MAJOR mistake. All goodness comes from God just as everything that exists ultimately came from God. God is the yardstick by which goodness is defined and if something isn't good according to God, then it's not good, end of story. In fact if we do something "good" out of a selfish motivation, it isn't good at all. Something can only be good if it's done for the love of God.

beans wrote: »

And this fundamental requirement of 'giving yourself over to Jesus' is what I see as analagous to Buddhist 'letting go of ego', facilitating self-less generosity etc... Do you see the parallels? Can't you see how it's your actions, be they in the name of 'insert Deity here', that define you as a person, and isn't that what ultimately matters?

Please don't get sucked into the various eastern religions that involve self-realization/enlightenment/everyone-is-god etc. We need to humble ourselves before God and not rebel against Him. It's our love of God that ultimately matters. And if we truly love God we will love our neighbour for the sake of God.

beans wrote: »

I suppose that depends on your definition of 'saved', I believe both will leave the practitioner in the same both when the hour arrives - having lived a life full of love, compassion, etc and about to return whence they came

Saved means spending an eternity in total joy with your Creator and this is only possible because Jesus paid the ransom for our sins. You can spend a lifetime being compassionate toward your neighbour but God won't look upon you kindly if you appear before Him in judgement and you haven't bothered to love your Creator!

God bless,
Noel.

pinksoir

Interestingly enough, there is a theory that maintains that Jesus was in fact trained as a buddhist during the part of his life not accounted for in the Bible.

Indeed, Kelly1, you are yourself way off the mark in asserting that Buddhism and Christianity have very little in common. They have an awful lot in common.

kelly1

beans wrote: »

Good post (PDN)^ I admit I have limited knowledge of Jesus' teachings, and all this is just by the way of musing, trying to understand a little more on the subject.

Just curious, do you have any Christian background? Have you had much exposure to Christianity? If not, I'd start with the New Testament and if you read it slowly and carefully and ask Jesus to inspire you and touch your heart, you'll find wisdom and truth. Jesus spoke like no other religious teacher. He spoke with all the authority and truth and joy of God.

John 14:6 Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me.

God bless,
Noel.

kelly1

pinksoir wrote: »

Interestingly enough, there is a theory that maintains that Jesus was in fact trained as a buddhist during the part of his life not accounted for in the Bible.

With repect PS, that's a load of nonsense. What could Jesus, the Son of God, possibly learn from Buddhism?? He lived a normal life like every other boy of His day until His appointed time to start preaching the Gospel.

pinksoir wrote: »

Indeed, Kelly1, you are yourself way off the mark in asserting that Buddhism and Christianity have very little in common. They have an awful lot in common.

Isn't Buddhist agnostic? Correct me if I'm wrong. Jesus' whole message was totally centered on God so how can Buddhism and Christianity really have anything in common. They share similar concepts such as peace, compassion etc but it's human centered and cuts God out of the picture.

God bless,
Noel.

beans

kelly1 wrote:

I could be wrong, but maybe your idea of God is a bit impersonal as if God is a face-less entity?

That's pretty much what I believe, yes. Faceless but not without a sense of humour.

kelly1 wrote:

Just curious, do you have any Christian background? Have you had much exposure to Christianity?

Hi, yeah I was baptised at around 4 months and floated through Communion and Confirmation, losing what little practising Catholicism I had at around age 13. I didn't really reject entirely the notion of 'God the Father' until my early 20s, and only now am revisiting it to try to make sense of it for myself.

Ironically, it was Buddhism and Taoistic literature that got me thinking about God all these years later. Were it not for these I wouldn't be having this conversation now I believe there are probably nuggets of personal truth to be found in the texts and treatises of all religions and philosophies, I'm just not sure I've found mine yet. Not all of them, anyhow.

re: the New Testament, I havent read much, I used to flick through my friend's copy when I was staying with her, but never got far past Corinthians 2. I'm sure I'll revisit some day (didn't like the O.T. at all, too much drama )

Jesus' whole message was totally centered on God so how can Buddhism and Christianity really have anything in common

It's my belief that the 'God' that Jesus was referring to was a metaphor for the universe and the intelligence therein (I'm still unclear on this). But I don't think the two are mutually exclusive, quite the opposite.

Jesus spoke like no other religious teacher.

I've never read what he said directly, but I dig what he had to say. I suppose it's begging to be asked - have you read any religious texts outside those of Christianity? Just writing that makes me feel a little queasy, I'm not evangelicising, just curious

beans

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Christianity values the individual. God has given each of us gifts... I can't have this full alife without Him.

BC, that sounds like you've found your happy place anyway That all sounds rather lovely.

Fanny Cradock

Hello Beans,

I think that you would find Mere Christianity by C.S Lewis a fascinating read. Written some 50 years ago, it deals with topics that are very relevant to the questions you have raised.

beans

I think I'll do that I enjoyed '...looking glass', that's all I've ever read of CS Lewis.

PDN

beans wrote: »

I think I'll do that I enjoyed '...looking glass', that's all I've ever read of CS Lewis.

I think you're probably having a laugh, but in case not - you might be confusing CS Lewis with Lewis Carroll.

kelly1

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Hello Beans,

I think that you would find Mere Christianity by C.S Lewis a fascinating read. Written some 50 years ago, it deals with topics that are very relevant to the questions you have raised.

I must read it some time. I've heard several times that it's a great book and that it resulted in countless conversions.

Fanny Cradock

He is not to be confused with Lewis Carol. This is a common mistake in my experience, though. I've even had people ask: 'Wasn't that the guy who like kids? I mean REALLY liked them' :eek:

The answer to that is a firm 'No'.

It's a good book. One that may answer some of your questions, Beans, and get you thinking about some others.

kelly1

beans wrote: »

Hi, yeah I was baptised at around 4 months and floated through Communion and Confirmation, losing what little practising Catholicism I had at around age 13. I didn't really reject entirely the notion of 'God the Father' until my early 20s, and only now am revisiting it to try to make sense of it for myself.

Ironically, it was Buddhism and Taoistic literature that got me thinking about God all these years later. Were it not for these I wouldn't be having this conversation now I believe there are probably nuggets of personal truth to be found in the texts and treatises of all religions and philosophies, I'm just not sure I've found mine yet. Not all of them, anyhow.
.....
It's my belief that the 'God' that Jesus was referring to was a metaphor for the universe and the intelligence therein (I'm still unclear on this). But I don't think the two are mutually exclusive, quite the opposite.
.....
I've never read what he said directly, but I dig what he had to say. I suppose it's begging to be asked - have you read any religious texts outside those of Christianity? Just writing that makes me feel a little queasy, I'm not evangelicising, just curious

It's funny, your beliefs sound very like mine used to be. I used to read all sorts of book on new-age, Taoism, Confucianism, Yoga, self-realization, paganism, macrobiotics, astrology, Hare Krisha, reincarnation etc, etc. The list is endless. Thanks to the grace of God I came to the realization that there is actually only one true path to God which is Jesus Christ. I also discovered that the Catholic Church was founded by Jesus. I won't say any more on this for now in case I get flamed

I felt angry knowing that I had been misled by countless lies and had offended Jesus who died for me on the cross. I realized how distorted my view of God and in particular Jesus had become. I didn't believe in God as a loving Father but rather some kind of powerful entity/energy. I believed that Jesus was one of many "advanced masters" who had attained enlightenment. I believed that I could achieve enlightment and break free of the cycle of reincarnation.

All lies of the devil! I believed that sin was only a relative concept and that God couldn't be offended. I believed that something wasn't wrong unless it harmed someone else (a pagan idea). I now know that sin damages the soul, offends God and jeopardizes our eternal salvation. I realize now that the world is full of traps laid by the devil and how easy it is to be drawn away from God by lies/errors and that the road to Heaven is a long, hard struggle but is very much worth the effort. I now know that only Jesus can save us and nothing I do will ever save my soul.

BTW, my conversion happened after a trip to Lourdes. I was the best thing I ever did!

So please, don't get sucked in by the lies! Now you know why I'm passionate about this subject

Matthew 7:14 How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it! 15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say to you: Lo here is Christ, or there, do not believe him. 24 For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. 25 Behold I have told it to you, beforehand.

God bless,
Noel.

BrianCalgary

Well said, Kelly1, well said.

kelly1

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Well said, Kelly1, well said.

Thanks. I just absolutely love Jesus!

I just wanted everyone to know that, in case ye didn't know

AngryHippie

Thats why "The Book" drives me bananas. Its got an quip for everything without ever getting real. I'm glad it works for you all, I'm sure you find great strength from it, But it just doesn't satisfy me, as it requires that leap of faith that I don't have to make with my logic. This will be my last post on this topic, because there is no arguing when scripture is quoted, The circular nature of it is the reason the book has survived for nearly 2000 years now.
See you on the other side,
AH

hairyheretic

kelly1 wrote: »

I believed that something wasn't wrong unless it harmed someone else (a pagan idea).

As a very short aside, I think you're slightly off on that. I'm assuming you're refering to "An it harm none, do what you will." or some variation of that. The none would include yourself too.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

kelly1

hairyheretic wrote: »

As a very short aside, I think you're slightly off on that. I'm assuming you're refering to "An it harm none, do what you will." or some variation of that. The none would include yourself too.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

Yes, you're right. I'm sure I don't need to tell you that I disagree with this philosophy. There are many things a person can do which on the face of it don't appear to harm oneself or others but in fact destroy God's grace in the soul. e.g. fornication, lustful thoughts, masturbation, viewing pornography etc.

God bless,
Noel.

beans

you might be confusing CS Lewis with Lewis Carroll

D'oh, dammit, and I even googled his name to make sure I was thinking of the right person...

hairyheretic

kelly1 wrote: »

Yes, you're right. I'm sure I don't need to tell you that I disagree with this philosophy.

I figured as much.

kelly1 wrote: »

There are many things a person can do which on the face of it don't appear to harm oneself or others but in fact destroy God's grace in the soul. e.g. fornication, lustful thoughts, masturbation, viewing pornography etc.

A debate for another thread perhaps?

I also notice that all the examples you give seem sexually based.

beans

My brain has a hard time conceptualising God as a person, in that God cares what we do. It puts humans at the centre of the universe, I can't accept that. But it's been interesting hearing the Christian viewpoint on my thoughts, so thanks for that.

I still believe that if you're doing it right, all religions boil down to the same thing, and that people of faith should search for and cherish their similarities rather than drawing lines based on their differences. But as an athiest, that's easy for me to say.

kelly1

hairyheretic wrote: »

I also notice that all the examples you give seem sexually based.

Yes, I believe sexual sins are the quickest way to Hell because of their gravity and the powerful lure of illicit sex.

Anyway, at the time, I couldn't think of any sins other than sexual ones which don't appear to harm other people or onesself physically or mentally. But now that I think about it there are lots of others - lack of love for/faith/trust in God, not praying, not acknowledging sin and asking for forgiveness, worshipping false gods/idols etc, love of material things over God, dwelling on uncharitable thoughts etc, etc.

Peace,
Noel.

hairyheretic

Well, given that I'm not Christian, I'd have something of a different opinion on many of those issues that you've listed ... the false gods one if nothing else I'm also not that fussed on the concept Grace either, but that's been hashed out on at least a couple of threads before now.

At any rate I doubt we'd find much in the way of common ground on this one, and I don't want to drag this topic further off.

kelly1

beans wrote: »

My brain has a hard time conceptualising God as a person, in that God cares what we do. It puts humans at the centre of the universe, I can't accept that.

The central message of Christianity is that God loves us without bounds and that He created us out of pure love and goodness. His ultimate plan for us is to spend eternity in union with Him. What a beautiful thought! It's not all arrogant to accept that the universe was created for our benefit. It shows gratitude towards our Creator. I'm sure the act of creation wasn't very difficult for God because it only takes an act of the divine will.

But the amazing thing is that the creation of the universe is nothing compared with what exists in the soul of a person in a state of grace. To be in a state of grace implies that the soul is fully alive with God's grace. We become adopted children of God and therefore heirs to all that God has. It's hard to believe, but what happens in baptism (and confession) is far greater than the creation of the material universe! So it's faith in God and faith in His plan for us that gives life real meaning.

beans wrote: »

I still believe that if you're doing it right, all religions boil down to the same thing, and that people of faith should search for and cherish their similarities rather than drawing lines based on their differences. But as an athiest, that's easy for me to say.

I can understand how you can come to this conclusion because I was there. But I believe you're falling into the relativism trap. There is absolute truth and what is true to God is absolute truth because God IS Truth.

Different religions teach different things e.g. re-incarnation vs death/judgement. Both can't be right. One religion teaches that we are saved by our own efforts/reincarnation/nirvana and Christianity teaches that we can only be saved by accepting Jesus our Saviour who died for us on the cross to save us from eternal damnation. Surely knowing the truth about out eternal destiny is surely THE most important thing in our lives? How can we we be saved if we don't know the truth?

God bless,
Noel.

beans

Had a reply typed and my browser crashed... divine will?

[opinions=beans]The idea of God as a facilitator of humanity escaping the trap of desire (over coming ego) still works well for me. I believe that god is love, god is truth, god is the beginning and end of all things, that 'No-one can come to god except through me (Jesus)', and I can hold all these things to be simultaneously true. Ah the joys of a malleable spiritual outlook.

And I'm certain that when I die we'll both end up in the same place, our bodies in the earth and our energies abosrbed back into the planet's systems. Heaven! Isn't the idea that the essence of a dead friend, for example, is before us in every gust of wind, every sapling, etc.. pretty heavenly? Sorry to wax on.[/opinions]

kelly1

beans wrote: »

[opinions=beans]The idea of God as a facilitator of humanity escaping the trap of desire (over coming ego) still works well for me.

You haven't been reading Krishnamurthi by any chance have you? Desire is a good thing as long as you desire to do God's will. Good desire is absolutely necessary. How can one progress in virtue without the desire to do so? I desire the virtues of faith, hope, charity, purity etc but I often fail in this. But the desire is there and without this I'll never succeed in pleasing God.

beans wrote: »

I believe that god is love, god is truth, god is the beginning and end of all things, that 'No-one can come to god except through me (Jesus)', and I can hold all these things to be simultaneously true.

Great Good for you!

beans wrote: »

Ah the joys of a malleable spiritual outlook.

I have a lot of difficulty with this. Truth isn't arrived at by a majority decision or by picking and choosing what we want to believe. The Truth has been revealed by God through Christ and anything which contradicts this should be rejected. Please understand I'm not trying to force my beliefs upon you. I'm just telling you what I truly believe to be the truth.

beans wrote: »

And I'm certain that when I die we'll both end up in the same place, our bodies in the earth and our energies abosrbed back into the planet's systems. Heaven! Isn't the idea that the essence of a dead friend, for example, is before us in every gust of wind, every sapling, etc.. pretty heavenly? Sorry to wax on.

No, no, no! Sorry, you've been misled!:( The false religions/spiritualities of this crazy world try to deny the reality of sin and the punishment due for it. The truth of the matter is that God's way is the only way that leads to eternal life and happiness and God's way was to send His Son into the world to save us. Sin offends Gods and harms our souls. Sin destroys life and bring about death. Because God is infinitely holy, the smallest sin is infinitely offensive to Him. False religions would have you believe that God can't be offended because they teach that God is some kind of infinite energy rather than a God who loves us. The reality is that God and sin are opposite ends of an infinite spectrum. God hates sin but not the sinner.

So to remedy the situation "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son" to die and agonizing death by crucifixion and make amends for all the sins that ever were commited and all those that ever will be committed. The Blood of Christ has infinite value and hence can atone for the infinite offence caused to God.

So there is no absorbtion of energy back into the "system". There are only two ultimate destinies for us - Heaven or Hell and the choice is entirely ours to make.

God bless,
Noel.

Splendour

beans wrote: »

And this fundamental requirement of 'giving yourself over to Jesus' is what I see as analagous to Buddhist 'letting go of ego', facilitating self-less generosity etc... Do you see the parallels? Can't you see how it's your actions, be they in the name of 'insert Deity here', that define you as a person, and isn't that what ultimately matters?

Hi Beans,

I can see the parallels, but thats all it is-a parallel. Christianity and Buddhism cannot and will not ever meet.

Our actions may define us as the people we are but I'm afraid that's not what ultimately matters...

PDN

I think many of the ideals in Buddhism are fine, but we are incapable of actually doing this stuff ourselves due to our very fallible human nature. Most religions are all about man doing what he can to get closer to God, enlightenment, whatever. The Gospel is instead about God doing something for us. Take God out of the equation and all we have is a lot of good moral teaching (be it from Jesus or anyone else) and a frustrating inability to live it.

kelly1

Hello Beans,

I would encourage you to read this article which explains why Christ and the Church are needed for salvation. I realize many don't accept this idea but please read with an open mind. It discusses relativism that I mentioned earlier.

http://www.rosary-center.org/ll53n6.htm

God bless,
Noel.