Best/cheapest diesel car to 'experiment' with veg oil/biodiesel?

JHMEG

Thinking of buying an older cheap diesel car to experiment with veg oil (only 69c a litre;)), and wondering what someone who has done similar would recommend.

Thinking of an early 90s 1.7 (non Turbo) Astra.. anyone got any better suggestions?

The 1.7 is attractive as it's a lot cheaper to tax than a 2.0. Also I know that Isuzu engines as well as GM engines were used.. anyone know a definitive way to tell if it's the Isuzu engine?

colm_mcm

some old Volkswagen 1.6D like a Jetta

JHMEG

colm_mcm wrote: »

some old Volkswagen 1.6D like a Jetta

Are they not seriously old... like 1980s?

colm_mcm

they did a 1.6 TD into the early 90's as well.

Greenman

I have a 1990 1.7 litre Vectra, little bit of rust at the rear wheel arches but I like this car, very comfortable on the road, dose about 5.1 litres to the 100 kms.

So far so good.

Tell us how you get on.

Max_Damage

Mercedes Benz W123 or W124 (i.e. 200D, 240D, & 300D).

Also, the Mercedes W201 (190E) diesel.

JHMEG

Citroen AX 1.5D anyone? Conflicting information on Parkers.. seems to do either 45mpg or 61mpg? Also rare: 1 ('95) for sale in NI, none in RoI.

Corsa B Isuzu 1.5 D a possibility. None for sale. No harm: Awful cars.

1.7D Vectra looking most likely.

EDIT: Forget the AX (and the 106). Typical f'ing French car with controls skewed due to being connected by cables to the opposite side of the car. Can the French make a car that's RHD out of the factory! Honest John calls this "twisted spine".. good description.

Mr. Presentable

Yup. Old VW-D

JHMEG

Those 1.6 VWs seemed to finish in 1990, which is a bit too old. Even a Jap car that old will be starting to wear out. Not willing to do the 1.9 VW or the 2.0 Toyota.. they are truly awful engines.

unkel

'93-'94 Peugeot 306 1.9 diesel (non turbo)

Engines are indestructible

JHMEG

unkel wrote: »

'93-'94 Peugeot 306 1.9 diesel (non turbo)

Engines are indestructible

Been a long time since I was in a 306, but I presume they also have the twisted spine driving position?

I must actually try a French car out again. Last one was a 206 a few years ago and found it horrible.

unkel

JHMEG wrote: »

I presume they also have the twisted spine driving position?

That wouldn't bother a masochist keen enough to drive a prehistoric vehicle just to save a tenner a week

Matt Simis

JHMEG wrote: »

Thinking of buying an older cheap diesel car to experiment with veg oil (only 69c a litre;)), and wondering what someone who has done similar would recommend.

Hats off to you, I got the impression you hated diesels, guess its just the petro-fuel (which is understandable). Im looking into this too (for Biodiesel), but will probably stick to the Audi/VW 1.9TDI or 2.5 (since 2md hamd big engines can be cheaper than small ones in this wonderful country).

Sure, you could get an old Merc and poor Veg Oil straight into it, but thats a bit too easy now isnt it?

JHMEG

unkel wrote: »

That wouldn't bother a masochist keen enough to drive a prehistoric vehicle just to save a tenner a week

You're missing the point: this an experiment. I don't mind killing the car... in fact I hope to kill it some way or another (and make note of what killed it). But I have to be able to drive it comfortably for a few months in order to do so, and twisted spine aint gonna help that. Oh, and don't worry: the trusty petrol Honda will be put into storage while the experiment is ongoing:D

@Matt, yes I have no fondness of petro diesels. Also have no experience of biodiesel/lidl veg oil/dead cat diesel, but am willing to try:D

unkel

Why not force feed diesel to one of your favourite B16A engines?

You and others have me convinced that the car would still run for several hundreds of thousands of miles before finally giving up

peasant

By using 100% veg oil you're not going to "kill" an old diesel engine.

Combustion isn't the problem with veg oil, viscosity is.

Veg oil (once it gets into the engine) actually burns slightly better than petro diesel and you may even get a slight increase in power. Getting it into the engine is the problem.

You will need: thicker fuel lines, different filters (and change them regularly), most likely some form of pre-heating, different glow plugs (glow for longer) and stronger injection nozzles.

But your engine will be grand

JHMEG

@peasant, thanks for that. I plan to add none of those things, and let viscosity take its toll. If/when it breaks down I'll have a go at fixing it.

@unkel, I know you're being a twit... Have you priced a B16A recently? You could buy a whole BMW 7-series for less. At €1k+ for an old B16A, one tends to treat them well. (One on ebay here for about €1,500 buy-it-now)

unkel

JHMEG wrote: »

@unkel, I know you're being a twit... Have you priced a B16A recently? You could buy a whole BMW 7-series for less

LOL, I give up. You win

JHMEG

unkel wrote: »

LOL, I give up. You win

There's a 1994 730 in B&S for €1k. What do ya reckon?;)

unkel

JHMEG wrote: »

There's a 1994 730 in B&S for €1k. What do ya reckon?;)

Nikasil!

colm_mcm

how about a Pug 106 with a 1.5 diesel engine. same unit as in the AX?

JHMEG

AX/106 are options alright, there just don't seem to be too many around.

alias no.9

You want something with a bosch injector pump with mechanical control, a general rule of thumb is that if it has an engine management light, don't bother. Opels use a lucas pump and you'll fry that very quickly without a lot of modification. Some peugeots use lucas, some use bosch, check before you buy. The very best choice is an old merc which uses an bosch inline injector pump.

Earth Worm Jim

I know 2 people that have experimented with this in the cars below.

Mk3 golf with 900 euro conversion - seens ok, but he fitted the conversion himself to save money.

99 transit minibus - no conversion - not sure what engine is in it but runs fine with something like 70 -30 mix - had problems starting it with more veg oil in the mix.

You could try a late mk3 golf or maybe a ford diesel of around the same year as the transit.

Haven't heard any one trying a newer diesel yet, something to do with injectors or fuel pump restricts a lot of the newer engines AFAIK.

zilog_jones

If you're looking for something smaller than a 1.9/2.0, there's a 1.5 litre Toyota diesel found in JDM Starlets (1N, '89-'98) and the Tercel/Corolla II/Corsa (1N-T turbo, '86-'99). I saw a diesel Starlet on Carzone... once... there may be more around. Dunno what the engine's like, or if it's stolen from GM or some frenchies or what

Matt Simis

Just to avoid confusion for others, most of the above posts are confusing or grouping BioDiesel and Veg Oil together regarding application. This is incorrect:

SVO: Straight Veg Oil (from a bottle, fresh), will work in older cars with mods (mainly heating the oil for viscosity reasons)
WVO: Waste Veg Oil (Used from the frying pan, chipper etc) will work in older cars with mods (mainly heating the oil for viscosity reasons)
No car that Im aware is tested or warrantied to run directly on SVO/WVO.

BioDiesel: methyl ester made from SVO or WVO, can be used in any car without modufication (generally), Requires some basic chemistry, methanol and Caustic Soda to make. Many cars (particularly German) are warrantied to run on BioDiesel in various blends, some up 100%. This is considered the elegant and "kosher" alternative (diesel) fuel. The only major issue is the Fuel filter will initially have to be changed more often.

Max_Damage

No car that Im aware is tested or warrantied to run directly on SVO/WVO.

I remember watching Mythbusters some time back where they used WVO on a unmodified Mercedes 300SD (W126). Worked well too.

JHMEG

Matt Simis wrote: »

SVO: Straight Veg Oil (from a bottle, fresh), will work in older cars with mods (mainly heating the oil for viscosity reasons)
WVO: Waste Veg Oil (

What small displacement diesel engined car would you recommend for SVO, and maybe a bit of WVO, in summer time. I do recall reading about viscosity issues in colder weather, but instead of modify, I'd prefer to just avoid colder weather.

Older Mercs seem to be getting the thumbs up, but I'd rather not do the big engine/big car thing. As well as road tax etc I don't want to be spending more on veg oil than I currently am on petrol!

-If- I could choose it would be an Isuzu, prob the 1.7. I have read about 1.5s but don't ever recall seeing them.

3ps

get any early, bosch fuel pumped, golf or Pug 306/Cit equivalent

I will probably be doing the Xantia and perhaps also a Merc W124 (or early 210 with 250TD)

check out www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk and the discussion forum

I ra nmy Pug205 1.8D on a mix for a while with no modification and it was OK. However, I learned it had a Lucas pump so I stopped.
But I did have it up to 30-40% mix in summer and it still worked. 50% gave a few jitters.

3ps

http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/forum/viewthread.php?tid=3641

woop

from lots of forums Ive been looking at over the past while
they generally recomend old mercs and a few vws

something about having a bosch fuel pump


EDIT: just seen the above post

Matt Simis

JHMEG wrote: »

What small displacement diesel engined car would you recommend for SVO, and maybe a bit of WVO, in summer time. I do recall reading about viscosity issues in colder weather, but instead of modify, I'd prefer to just avoid colder weather.

Most of my reading centres on BioDiesel, but as per the other replies the old (early 90s at the latest) Mercs seemed to have no issues on SVO (even without mods) and some of the older VWs. I recently read about someone putting WVO, unfiltered (ie with bits of crap floating in it ) in a 2.5l V6 A6 TDI (1998) and it only broke 3 times over 6 mths, which is remarkable as using WVO, unheated and unfiltered is pretty moronic. The failures were the fuel pump siezing and the fuel tank capacity needle getting confused (it jammed, so he thought he had fuel when it was empty).

zilog_jones

Max_Damage wrote: »

I remember watching Mythbusters some time back where they used WVO on a unmodified Mercedes 300SD (W126). Worked well too.

I saw this repeated recently. It was far from unmodified, fuel supply-wise - they used a small fuel tank (about 1 litre IIRC) mounted on the side of the windscreen so they could see what was going on (it was transparent), and being California on a sunny day I would say it was pretty warm.

According to this place Toyota (N and C series) and Nissan (CD series - 1.7 and 2.0) diesels use "Bosch type" fuel pumps. It doesn't mention Bosch for the Isuzu and Mazda diesels I looked at. Dunno how reliable that is though.

pwee

Citroen xantia/Puegeot 306/405 etc da ones with da turbo actually have da bosch pump so non turbos are out.

Max_Damage

zilog_jones wrote: »

I saw this repeated recently. It was far from unmodified, fuel supply-wise - they used a small fuel tank (about 1 litre IIRC) mounted on the side of the windscreen so they could see what was going on (it was transparent), and being California on a sunny day I would say it was pretty warm.

True, but I don't think though there were any modifications to the engine itself (i.e. fuel injectors and what not).

JHMEG

zilog_jones wrote: »

According to this place Toyota (N and C series) and Nissan (CD series - 1.7 and 2.0) diesels use "Bosch type" fuel pumps. It doesn't mention Bosch for the Isuzu and Mazda diesels I looked at. Dunno how reliable that is though.

That's interesting. I'd like to use a Jap engine if at all possible, usually cos they're in Jap cars, the Isuzu being the exception. I'm not aware of any sub 2.0 Toyota engine from that era (was there one?), and didn't realise there were small-ish Nissan diesels, tho I see from that site the CD17 in old Sunnys.

Tho the Pug XUD engines seem highly rated, only pity is the rest of the car.

JHMEG

This is the biz. A database of different cars and results.
http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/fuelsdatabase/database/index.php

Thanks 3ps for the link to that site.

zilog_jones

Max_Damage wrote:

True, but I don't think though there were any modifications to the engine itself (i.e. fuel injectors and what not).

Yeah I don't think they did anything to the engine. But as others said you'd probably need extra heating for use over here, especially this time of year.

JHMEG wrote: »

I'm not aware of any sub 2.0 Toyota engine from that era (was there one?),

I posted about 1.5s above. I have seen several mid-90s Corolla II/Tercel/Corsas (they're all pretty much identical) in Ireland but I don't recall if they were diesels or not. The CE90 Corollas/Sprinters were 1.8s, but they're probably too old and crappy for you ('87-'92).

and didn't realise there were small-ish Nissan diesels, tho I see from that site the CD17 in old Sunnys.

They didn't seem to make it outside Japan - my November '93 What Car lists Sunnys with 2.0 litre diesels - prob PSA or Renault or something if they were built in Sunderland like most Nissans here. And the last "Sunny" sold here was the N13 Pulsar in Japan in case you were wondering - the JDM Sunny was a related but different car (I've seen several imports over here as well).

old boy

seat toledo 1.9d bosch pump cheap comfortable, and i got one parked up