Who should be Ireland's captain?

Snickers Man

There is a murmur building momentum quite rapidly that Brian O'Driscoll, while still a superb player, is not the right man to be leading Ireland right now.

I agree.

I think the doggedness of the Munster forwards and brilliance of the Leinster backs have allowed Ireland to build a decent reputation over the past few years without too much attention being paid to the importance of tactics, reacting positively to unexpected events, and dealing with a crisis. In major matches since 2000 up to this world cup campaign we had lost to Wales only twice (once in 2000 and once in their Grand Slam year) and Scotland only once (in 2001). Other defeats have come at the hands of major nations (England, France, New Zealand, S Africa and Australia) and most of them occurred away from home. What's to worry about?

But at the world cup other countries had done their homework on us and realised that by the simple expedient of denying us set piece opportunities in their half, they could leave us clueless. Losing gallantly to New Zealand or S AFrica is no disgrace. Getting creamed by Argentina and needing the video ref to save our asses against Georgia were disgraceful.

In each of these cases Ireland were not able to react to the situation on the field when the opposition took the tactical initiative. That's the captain's role and it's one O;'Driscoll is incabable of performing. At the end of the Argentina match he whinged on TV that Argentina played negatively. They didn't. They played in a way that negated our main threat, which is what they're supposed to do.

But if O'Driscoll isn't up to it, who is?

O'Connell may be a great motivator, make that intimidator ("Did you put the fear of God into them?") and a great leader by example but he doesn't seem to have the tactical nous required.

I bet that if Anthony Foley was Irish captain against Argentina we coudl have beaten them. We may not have qualified because of the other requirements necessary but we would not have looked the disjointed rabble we did look against htem.

But maybe Foley's day has passed in the Irish team.

So who else? Leo Cullen perhaps? Leicester thought enough of him to make him captain several times when he was there and he outplayed O'Callaghan in Musgrave Park last night.

Gleeson? Not in the team right now but could be worth a recall.

Stringer? Peppery little guy but ideally placed at scrum half, assuming he can win his place back, to direct the traffic and react to situations.

Or is there another natural leader waiting to emerge from the underage or A teams?

Sandwich

Snickers Man wrote: »

Stringer? .... assuming he can win his place back

I assume this last bit is just for humour or the fun of such a bizarre debate - and that the nightmare assumption never meets reality.


Back to the question. I think BOD should remain captain even though he is not a good captain. The situation of having a player in the team who will have a dominating presence due to clear cut superiority over his team mates as a world class player would make it difficult for anyone else to do the job. Especially since he has now been doing it for some years.

It is a not uncommon situation in team sports in general, and even Keith Wood I would consider to have been a poor captain - plent of 'follow me over the top' leadership from the front - but little or no tactical awareness and man or team management.


Nor is there any strong candidate there that would be a genuine captain. POC looked like he might be it a couple of years ago but I think he only offers the same 'match my effort and commitment' style rather than superior team and match, reading and management decision making, on the pitch.

Snickers Man

Sandwich wrote: »

I think BOD should remain captain even though he is not a good captain. The situation of having a player in the team who will have a dominating presence due to clear cut superiority over his team mates as a world class player would make it difficult for anyone else to do the job.

Really?

Mike Gibson rarely, if indeed ever, captained the Irish team despite the fact that he was head and shoulders better than anybody else in it.

Don't think Barry John ever captained Wales either. And Gareth Edwards only for a season, and not a very successful one at that.

Brendan Mullen, was he ever captain, despite being the best back in the team?

I remember little Jacques Fouroux who captained France to a Grand Slam in teh 1970s. They always said he was never the best scrum half in France but he was the best captain. Which is why they played him and with some success.

toomevara

Talent and ability as a rugby player provide no indicator of leadership potential. It's a difficult thing to pin down in all areas of life, but you know it when you see it. BOD with all due respect is not a natural leader.

Think of Guys like Piennar, Fitzpatrick, Johnson, Wood, Dominguez, Galthie all great captains and leaders of men, regardless of poistion. There isnt anyone in the current irish squad of that calibre unfortunately. Munster's Anthony Foley was the only decent homegrown captain Irish rugby has produced in recent years.

dc69

BOD,maybe he isnt the most inspirational person,but he can talk well,seems to keep a calm head and LEADS FROM EXAMPLE,cant ask for more than that,

we arent gona win anything anyway and he only has about 3 years left,maybe next world cup(doubtfull),may aswell leave him there for no other reason than he is probably the best player we have ever had.

EdgarAllenPoo

Might seem like odd choices but I would go with D'Arcy or Wallace (David).

Stev_o

dc69 wrote: »

BOD,maybe he isnt the most inspirational person,but he can talk well,seems to keep a calm head and LEADS FROM EXAMPLE,cant ask for more than that,

we arent gona win anything anyway and he only has about 3 years left,maybe next world cup(doubtfull),may aswell leave him there for no other reason than he is probably the best player we have ever had.

Yeaaahh but that can have a bad effect where people start thinking that he is just being arrogant and that he thinks that he's better then everyone else. What you want is someone who you would go to the depths of hell and back and now he would do the same

toomevara

dc69 wrote: »

BOD,maybe he isnt the most inspirational person,but he can talk well,seems to keep a calm head and LEADS FROM EXAMPLE,cant ask for more than that,

I take your point re:leading from example,especially when it comes to defence, but I reckon he talks way too much and he has a knack for antagonising referees which is never a good thing in a captain.

I'd also argue that when the pressure really comes on, ireland tend to look rudderless when BOD's captain. His tactical decision making is at times questionable.

dc69

toomevara wrote: »

I take your point re:leading from example,especially when it comes to defence, but I reckon he talks way too much and he has a knack for antagonising referees which is never a good thing in a captain.

I'd also argue that when the pressure really comes on, ireland tend to look rudderless when BOD's captain. His tactical decision making is at times questionable.

im sure we could find someone better but the way i look at it whats the point in changing the captain,we lost the world cup and he wont be around next time,doesnt look like we will win the 6 nations anytime soon,theres no point in changing captaincy tbh,

we should just be glad we had the pleasure of having him play for us and he should keep the captainy to show our gratitude and imo one of the only players who can walk away from the world cup head held high saying that he did his best

old boy

in the world cup when stringer sent the pass to where o d was supposed to be, od had words with stringer, instead of getting back to defend, no player in any sport has to right to criticise, never mind on the field of play

toomevara

dc69 wrote: »

we should just be glad we had the pleasure of having him play for us and he should keep the captainy to show our gratitude and imo one of the only players who can walk away from the world cup head held high saying that he did his best

Totally agree with practically everything you say re: BOD, as a player. I would only take issue with you on one point. I dont think the captaincy should ever be viewed as a reward given to the best player on the team. It should go to the player who is the best motivator/tactician. At the moment, when it comes to Ireland, I see no really genuine leaders anyway so the point is moot. I had hoped that O'Connell would become an Irish Murty Johnson, but alas 'twas not to be....

There is another issue with BOD for me in that, when he is captain, some of the natural fluency of his game seems to disappear. I think it weighs heavily on him. I'd also question the ability of a centre to effectively marshall a team from his postion. Ideally I like to see captains selected from the forwards or halves.

EdgarAllenPoo

In all fairness with the likelihood that EOS won't even get even a rap on the knuckles in the world cup review I think that maybe if the coach isn't going that the captaincy should be passed to someone else.

It was all well and good critisizing EOS (I did too) but he never crossed the touchline. It was BOD's job to run things on the field as captain and that didn't happen so he should pass the responsibility to someone else.

NotWormBoy

GDM wrote: »

In all fairness with the likelihood that EOS won't even get even a rap on the knuckles in the world cup review I think that maybe if the coach isn't going that the captaincy should be passed to someone else.

It was all well and good critisizing EOS (I did too) but he never crossed the touchline. It was BOD's job to run things on the field as captain and that didn't happen so he should pass the responsibility to someone else.

Whilst I agree that BOD didn't perform as captain, he was one of the few players who managed to actually turn up for the tournament. I don't think that any of the players can really be said to be able to hold their heads up too high, but he can do so more than most when it comes to the world cup.

I think he's the best candidate we've got at the moment, POC gets the blood going more without a doubt, but he's not as tactically with it as BOD. Both try and lead from the front - O'Connell has it easier in that regard since he's always at the thick of the action.

Cullen's not a bad idea - but I can't see it happening. O'Gara or Stringer... no. Any of the rest of the Leinster backs... no.

katiemac

Paul O'Connell.

toomevara

katiemac wrote: »

Paul O'Connell.

Not up to it.

DmanDmythDledge

Cullen wouldn't be guaranteed his place in the line-up so he won't get it, even if he starts the Six Nations campaign. Although BOD isn't the best of captains he is the only candidate capable of doing a decent job whose place in the team is guaranteed.

RuggieBear

Jennings

dc69

jerry flannery should be captain,passion like his wih john hayes vice captain:)

Sangre

Do people here actually think it would be a good idea to strip BOD of the captaincy or is this all hypothetical?

High&Low

katiemac wrote: »

Paul O'Connell.

He has proved on more than one occasion that he is not good enough...

We had two very different matches this year, with two very different results, who was the captain for the one we'd all rather forget.

This world cup aside, O'Driscoll has been a great captain for Ireland, if greatness is measured by results... He has the best win ratio of any Irish captain.

People considered Keith Wood a great captain, I don't, he may have led by example, but his record as captain was appalling.

There is no-one in the Irish team who is capable of leading the team other than O'Driscoll. Leo Cullen, who deserves to be in the team might be good enough, he certainly showed his leadership ability on Friday when he took over the captaincy.

zAbbo

Paul O'Connell is probably seriously considering his stature in the game, the two main challenges he has faced, with the Lions in 05, and RWC 07 - he has shamelessly been outmuscled and outplayed.

daveharnett

I think that Easterby should have been captain for several years by now.

Teg Veece

RuggieBear wrote: »

Jennings

+1. New team cycle, new team captain.

remus808

daveharnett wrote: »

I think that Easterby should have been captain for several years by now.

I agree that he is an excellent candiatate for captaincy, but unfortunatley he's another one that is not guaranteed a 1st XV place.. We have seriously good strength in the backrow right now, so a captain from there is not really conducive to progress..

padser

Sangre wrote: »

Do people here actually think it would be a good idea to strip BOD of the captaincy or is this all hypothetical?

Maybe it would be a good idea. It might free up BOD from the responsibility - and it might allow us to get a better captain.

toomevara

High&Low wrote: »

This world cup aside, O'Driscoll has been a great captain for Ireland, if greatness is measured by results... He has the best win ratio of any Irish captain.

Agreed, but I wouldn't expect anything else. He has had the good fortune to captain the first genuinely professional and properly resourced team in the history of Irish rugby. Remember that the history of Irish rugby, if measured by win ratios alone, is far from glorious.....

This is the type of argument that people reproduce ad nauseum when trying to justify EOS's position as coach. "He is the most successful coach we've ever had..." 'well of course he bleedin' is, no other coach in Irish history has had the resources, facilities or time with players that he's had.

He's also had the good fortune to compete in the six nations when scottish rugby is in decline, Italian rugby is a class lower that the other nations and the Welsh don't know their collective arse from their elbow. The same applies to BOD. Facile wins over Scotland/Italy/wales over the past few years do wonders for the old win ratio. Context is all when it comes to these things....

High&Low wrote: »

People considered Keith Wood a great captain, I don't, he may have led by example, but his record as captain was appalling.

His record was average ('appalling' is a bit strong when viewed fairly and in context) largely because the teams he captained were very, very far from world class. He was a superb captain, who lead his motley bunch of semi-professionals as well as could be expected...Professionalism came 5 years too late for him....

Stev_o

RuggieBear wrote: »

Jennings

Problem is that Jennings is a quiet player and like most 7's really doesnt want to be noticed by officials more then he has too i think butting the captaincy on him may hamper his game.

To be honest the only other "leader" [and thats what we are looking for] is Cullen had a great experience over with Tigers and they trusted him with captaincy several times [ Tigers fans btw are begging for himself and Jennings to come back btw]

Other then that i dont see any other leader that fits what we are looking for. Easterby sadly could have been a Cpt a few years ago but times have changed

Flannery to me is more of a motivator probably have him as VC maybe

zAbbo

Flannery is not guaranteed a place either, he hasn't been able to shift Ulster captain Rory Best from Hooker in 2 years, meanwhile he was outperformed by Jackman last week, as well as season to date.

bleg

zabbo wrote: »

Flannery is not guaranteed a place either, he hasn't been able to shift Ulster captain Rory Best from Hooker in 2 years.

due to performance or politics?


if you take best out of the team you have no northern irish player starting. if you had put the other half decent NI player in the starting 15 (trimble) hickie, darcy or o driscoll would have been left out. easy decision to make. do you put the trimble in who's way worse than the other players or put in best who's a small bit worse than flannery?

Eoin

bleg wrote: »

due to performance or politics?


if you take best out of the team you have no northern irish player starting. if you had put the other half decent NI player in the starting 15 (trimble) hickie, darcy or o driscoll would have been left out. easy decision to make. do you put the trimble in who's way worse than the other players or put in best who's a small bit worse than flannery?

I don't think it's fair to say that Best got his place because of politics - he is well known as a better scrummager than Flannery, which must have been an important factor during the World Cup, given our pool.

High&Low

bleg wrote: »

due to performance or politics?


if you take best out of the team you have no northern irish player starting. if you had put the other half decent NI player in the starting 15 (trimble) hickie, darcy or o driscoll would have been left out. easy decision to make. do you put the trimble in who's way worse than the other players or put in best who's a small bit worse than flannery?

One of the reasons that Best has been ahead of Flannery is that he adds more solidity in the scrum, this has been Eddie's argument and maybe its true, but it makes fck all difference when we lose three or four of our throw ins...

bogman44

Reddan is captaining Wasps regularly this season.

Is the upcoming six nations the first stage of our build up to the next world cup. Or is it another chance to win a Triple Crown which seems to be the height of our aspirations (probably realistic ones).
Can EOS afford to have a poor six nations, which wuld certainy be the case if he blooded new players.

Otacon

+1 Reddan

We have four years before we're faced with the WC again. The team will have changed.

I personally think Reddan is a good choice because he is improving enormously and will usurp Stringer and Boss soon enough. He has the best stage to manipulate the game strategically.

Perhaps, not straight away, but the sooner the better tbh.

il gatto

Cullen hasn't got a first team place yet so that's out. Reddan is just in the door and you shouldn't make the new boy captain.
If you pull the captaincy from BOD, it won't free him up. It'll strip one of our best players of confidence.
Let the out half decide on tactics and let the captain lead from the front. Flannery is a real motivator. O'Connell looked like a captain fantastic this time last year, but at the moment he wouldn't be up to it. He's got enough to worry about with his own game.
Hayes is probably one of the most respected players on the team. He might not do enough talking though, and it might be a short term thing. He can't go on forever with the amount of rugby he plays as a prop.
Flannery's ideal, but I think it has to stay with BOD for the forseeable.