Ground and Pound is spoiling the action in MMA/UFC ?

O'Leprosy

I think Ground and Pound is spoiling the action in the UFC and MMA. Now I'm not saying it should be stopped altogether, maybe refs should stand them up quicker or awarding the points when it goes to ground could be changed, but I personally find it a pain in the butt. I myself had the UFC78 taped, watched it Monday with the remote in my hand and just fast fowarded it when it went to the ground. I'm sure I'm not the only one. I do'nt know and this is maybe a bad analogy, but I think it's becoming a bit like the offside trap in soccer.

Ok, look at the Karo Parisyan v Ryo Chonan fight in the last UFC. The boys come out, strikes thrown for say 30/40 seconds, Karo rushes in, clinch against the fence for say, 20 seconds, they fall to the floor, Parisyan tries landing blows while Ryo Chonan has to hold him in as tight as guard as possible to obviously stop the punches raining down, this 'half' fighting goes on for say, 2 minutes, crowd ( rightly ) boos, ref stands them up. And then the whole sequnce is repeated again until the bell rings. And this is again repeated for the next 2 rounds.

Joe Rogan even remarked that when Karo Parisyan got the decision the crowd were still booing at such a boring fight, that even Karo acknowledged it to the crowd.

Gorund and Pound suits a wrestler, and good luck to them. But when you get a wrestler v striker/BJJer, all he has to do is throw a few strikes, clinch against the fence, land in guard, throw some punches for 2 minutes until their stood up again, repeat the sequence for the 3 rounds, and he'll get the decision in the end. Just my thoughts anyway.

columok

Ground and pound isn't spoiling the action. That's like saying Guillotines or thai kicks are spoiling the action.

Really it's a guy on bottom refusing to engage and counter and a guy on top not attacking effectively.

I wouldn't blame the noble art of gnp though.

Lay and pray on the other hand...

O'Leprosy

columok wrote: »

Ground and pound isn't spoiling the action. That's like saying Guillotines or thai kicks are spoiling the action.

Really it's a guy on bottom refusing to engage and counter and a guy on top not attacking effectively.

I wouldn't blame the noble art of gnp though.

Lay and pray on the other hand...

Well the crowd at the Karo Parisyan v Ryo Chonan fight agreed with me it seems.

cowzerp

Have to agree with columuk, ground and pound can be exciting when used ( right ) but the lay and pray business that some of the wrestler types do is awful to watch and not really fighting at all! maybe this is what your refering to?

Roper

I think there should be more rules, then the "crowd" can get the bad boxing matches they want.

O'Leprosy

cowzerp wrote: »

Have to agree with columuk, ground and pound can be exciting when used ( right ) but the lay and pray business that some of the wrestler types do is awful to watch and not really fighting at all! maybe this is what your refering to?

Yeah, sometimes GnP can be exciting, but nowadays it seems to be used just to dominate the fight on the ground, with the guy in guard getting the decision for the round as he is seen to be the dominant fighter. I suppose you cann't blame the individual wrestler if he deems it's the surest way to win the fight, still say it's a pain in the a$$. I hope the points system or something is changed to lessen it or make a fella when in a GnP position to go for the knockout, guard pass, submission, whatever.

Still, I'll be keeping the remote handy for a while when I'm watching MMA :rolleyes:

O'Leprosy

Roper wrote: »

I think there should be more rules, then the "crowd" can get the bad boxing matches they want.

Ever hear - the customer is always right

Roper

Yup, so since that sprinting lark in the Olympics is over so quickly we should put in some obstacles...

And the UFC customers are generally boozed up gamblers on a trip to Vegas. When the crowd os more educated you get less booing.

O'Leprosy

Roper wrote: »

Yup, so since that sprinting lark in the Olympics is over so quickly we should put in some obstacles...

And the UFC customers are generally boozed up gamblers on a trip to Vegas. When the crowd os more educated you get less booing.

To be honest, I do'nt have the answer, just would like to see more all round action and less of the stalemate we are sometimes seeing at the moment.

Maybe they should introduce musical kata and forms and patterns ?

cowzerp

O'Leprosy wrote: »

I hope the points system or something is changed to lessen it or make a fella when in a GnP position to go for the knockout, guard pass, submission, whatever.

Still, I'll be keeping the remote handy for a while when I'm watching MMA :rolleyes:

The 1 thing i'll say is the same applies to submission fighters too sometimes! to me going for sub after sub and getting nothing out of it should not score well in my opinion-its like throwing punches without damage been done, if there is no effective action in any area happening i would re,start the fight again and bring in point deductions for spoiling too maybe!

O'Leprosy

cowzerp wrote: »

The 1 thing i'll say is the same applies to submission fighters too sometimes! to me going for sub after sub and getting nothing out of it should not score well in my opinion-its like throwing punches without damage been done, if there is no effective action in any area happening i would re,start the fight again and bring in point deductions for spoiling too maybe!

" bring in point deductions for spoiling too maybe! " Good idea.

Wacker

Didn't Pride have the system where the ref had the option of deducting 10% of a fighter's purse if he deemed that the guy wasn't attacking enough? It is a drastic move, but it would sure make Tim Sylvia matches more bearable for the viewer.

dasmoose

cowzerp wrote: »

The 1 thing i'll say is the same applies to submission fighters too sometimes! to me going for sub after sub and getting nothing out of it should not score well in my opinion-its like throwing punches without damage been done, if there is no effective action in any area happening i would re,start the fight again and bring in point deductions for spoiling too maybe!

I think the important distinction is what Pride used to use - "effort made to finish the fight" - I think a fighter who is attempting to sub his opponent and failing should be given points for attacking in a manner which could finish the fight; the main complaint against LnP style GnP is that its merely working to gain an advantage over the opponent instead of finish the fight.

I would argue strongly that sub attempts are a hell of a lot more exciting than the occasional body-body-head combination thrown in the guard - in the same sense, Matt Hughes style GnP is very exciting and an attempt to finish the fight.

Valmont

There are boring stand up fights too like Sylvia vs. Arlovski, you don't blame the stand up game itself on that do you?

Personally I love nothing more than watching Sherk controlling and out-grappling someone for five rounds. It's a thing of beauty I say:D

FiannaGym.com

This has been adressed already.

G'n'P is exciting and fun.
Lay and Pray is the lead blanket approach used to win decisions.

Watch Kid for GnP and the UFC for LnP haha.

In Pride, a yellow card could be awarded for a fighter on-top not pressing the action. The fighter on his back would rarely be reprimanded and rightly so, its pretty difficult to do something with nothing. They yellow card meant a 10% deduction from your purse.

Another way pride avoided LnP was to allow stomps and soccer kicks and disallow elbows.

Now the real question is; is fighting for the fighters or for the uneducated fans?

Peace

goo

O'Leprosy wrote: »

Well the crowd at the Karo Parisyan v Ryo Chonan fight agreed with me it seems.

You don't want those guys on your side.
Booing is ridiculous. I like Yushin Okami haha, so maybe I'm biased, but I don't really mind when guys go out to control a fight rather than finish it. I don't watch this for "action" anyway, I get more bored of striking than anything else really. Case in point, Liddell - Jardine was a **** fight in my opinion, whereas I'm sure the majority of fans, or maybe just the randomers in the crowd, enjoyed it more than say any Okami fight. I was up north for him against Franklin and I was embarrassed by the booing like.

O'Leprosy

dasmoose wrote: »

I think the important distinction is what Pride used to use - "effort made to finish the fight" - I think a fighter who is attempting to sub his opponent and failing should be given points for attacking in a manner which could finish the fight; the main complaint against LnP style GnP is that its merely working to gain an advantage over the opponent instead of finish the fight.

I would argue strongly that sub attempts are a hell of a lot more exciting than the occasional body-body-head combination thrown in the guard - in the same sense, Matt Hughes style GnP is very exciting and an attempt to finish the fight.

Agree 100% with you, I have'nt seen much of Pride but maybe that yellow card rule is the answer. Yeah, Matt Hughes had GnP worth watching, you did'nt know if a stoppage or a sub would come out of it.

" There are boring stand up fights too like Sylvia vs. Arlovski, you don't blame the stand up game itself on that do you? " Like in any sport, there is going to be good and bad matches. But well of late, the GnP tactics have been a bore.

As for the crowd booing, as we all know too well, we may have ignorant morons unfortunately sometimes turning up to MMA events in Ireland but the blokes who turn up to UFC events in America, England etc...... I'd say most of them are practising Trad/BJJ/MMA heads, would'nt say so many fellas would spend so much dosh flying to Vegas, Atlanta etc to see a fight if they were'nt genuinely into MMA, just my thoughts, while the ordinary Joe Soap would probably be satisfied just watch it on the TV in a bar.

If I was there I would have booed the Karo Parisyan fight, I really would. And as Joe Rogan said, even Karo acknowledged it was a boring fight. But lucky for me I kept the remote handy

Magic Eight Ball

Ground fighting is the most exciting part IMO.

Roper

FiannaGym.com wrote: »

Now the real question is; is fighting for the fighters or for the uneducated fans?

Good question. I'd like to think that we'll get to a stage where every fight night will be attended by knowledgable fans who know the difference between a Sherk and a Lindland. But I dunno.

goo

O'Leprosy wrote: »

the blokes who turn up to UFC events in America, England etc...... I'd say most of them are practising Trad/BJJ/MMA heads, would'nt say so many fellas would spend so much dosh flying to Vegas, Atlanta etc to see a fight if they were'nt genuinely into MMA

I always assumed there was a tonne of drunk gamblers at the ones in Vegas.

cmb.

to say gnp is spoling mma is like saying running dash is spoiling the triathalon - its an integral part of the sport, and if it is a sport you shouldnt be trying to remove aspects of it for 'entertainment' reasons and if it is so boring that a wrestler is holdi ng an oponent then its the responsibility of his or her oponent to learn to combat this

filament

Roper wrote: »

Yup, so since that sprinting lark in the Olympics is over so quickly we should put in some obstacles...

And the UFC customers are generally boozed up gamblers on a trip to Vegas. When the crowd os more educated you get less booing.

agreed, my favorite ufc's where the ones taped infront of a silent japanese audience

filament

goo wrote: »

You don't want those guys on your side.
Booing is ridiculous. I like Yushin Okami haha, so maybe I'm biased, but I don't really mind when guys go out to control a fight rather than finish it. I don't watch this for "action" anyway, I get more bored of striking than anything else really. Case in point, Liddell - Jardine was a **** fight in my opinion, whereas I'm sure the majority of fans, or maybe just the randomers in the crowd, enjoyed it more than say any Okami fight. I was up north for him against Franklin and I was embarrassed by the booing like.

dunno i remember alot of booing during both fights. Though i must say I quite enjoyed Jardine's approach to body kicks.

Meantime, some fights... will be boring... This is a real sport now guys <kinda> so be prepared for the odd stalemate

Colm_OReilly

And the UFC customers are generally boozed up gamblers on a trip to Vegas.

I didn't find the crowd in London to be that educated or sophisticated tbh. Anyway, what hope do we have of decent crowds when "educated" people make comments like this:

And the UFC customers are generally boozed up gamblers on a trip to Vegas.

Extremely bad manners and a complete lack of respect for the athletes in my opinion.

Having said all that, I have found the Irish MMA fans have come a long way this year in terms of sportsmanship and appreciation.

Roper

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

I didn't find the crowd in London to be that educated or sophisticated tbh. Anyway, what hope do we have of decent crowds when "educated" people make comments like this:

Extremely bad manners and a complete lack of respect for the athletes in my opinion.

Having said all that, I have found the Irish MMA fans have come a long way this year in terms of sportsmanship and appreciation.

So good you quoted it twice? What's bad manners? Booing or my comment?

Anyway booing is the new cheering. People now think because athletes are so well paid and they've paid x amount for ticket then they should be guaranteed entertainment. When they're not, they boo. Look at the premiership, a manager has a bad day and gets booed no matter what the previous ten performances were like.

cowzerp

The typical booers should talk with there feet and not go! i can understand fans getting pissed if a fighter is mot trying to win! but getting pissed because you dont like the fighters style is bullshiit.

Fall_Guy

Roper wrote: »

Good question. I'd like to think that we'll get to a stage where every fight night will be attended by knowledgable fans who know the difference between a Sherk and a Lindland. But I dunno.

#

What does this mean? What do you consider to be the difference between a sherk and a lindland??

If you are referring to lindland's reputation as a LnP artist, i always found it funny that for a LnP guy he's finished so many fights. Lindland has only had five decsion victories out of his 20 wins. Sherk has had 11 decision victories out of 32 wins, a higher decision ratio than the supposed "blanket" lindland.

Dragan

O'Leprosy wrote: »

Well the crowd at the Karo Parisyan v Ryo Chonan fight agreed with me it seems.

Well no offence, but i find it hard to believe that anyone would say the crowd has a right to boo a fight.

Thats is something that i would take issue with at all times in all situations. You want a more exciting fight? Then fight yourself.

As for GnP, Colum already pointed out the difference between GnP and lay and pray......some of the best fight endings i can remember were via a GNP stoppage.

Colm_OReilly

D'Oh!

Meant to post this as the second quote:

If I was there I would have booed the Karo Parisyan fight, I really would.

Michael O Leary

Hi all,

With regard to the original question he is a point of view from Rorion Gracie.

“You can discover a lot about a man’s character when you leave him in the middle of the jungle without an expectation of rescue. Some people are going to get busy using all of their resources to survive. Others may panic and have a heart attack! But if you leave that same man in the jungle and tell him, ‘I’ll be back to pick you up tomorrow,’ his mind set is different, the uncertainty element is gone, he’s going to try to conserve his energy, and just survive until he’s rescued the next day. That’s what the clock does in MMA, it tells a fighter who’s losing to try to stall until the bell rings, rather than use his resources to find a way to defeat his opponent.”

I know feck all about MMA but just wondered if anyone had any opinions on this?

Regards,

Michael

Michael O Leary

Hi all,

I actually think this could raise an interesting discussion so maybe ignore the post here and I will start off a fresh thread asking this question.

Regards,

Michael.

FiannaGym.com

Rorion is the man.

As I read that quote I just hear his voice haha.
He's right too, I think that's why at some stage we all have to make the trip to brazil or south africa or Guam or where ever and hit up the old VT rules.

Peace

Michael O Leary

FiannaGym.com wrote: »

I think that's why at some stage we all have to make the trip to brazil or south africa or Guam or where ever and hit up the old VT rules.

Peace

Ving Tsun?

Regards,

Michael.

Nothingcompares

I for one am never quite certain when Fianna is being serious and when he's being sarcastic. Even the hahas confuse me. I presume he's being sarcastic.

In the word of Mark Leonard* it's folly to compare any martial art to real life self defence. In a MMA match and you're on top of your opponent punching him in the face and are close to knocking him out when the bell goes and he's saved by the bell. Is that realistic? No, not really. That's an artificial rule. But surely in real life you could be on top of some body punching him in the face and you hear a gardai siren you'd also stop and run off.

Time limits? How many people have seen a 30minute street fight? Street fights are 30 seconds. rorion gracie is old old skool.

*See Irish fighter

Mark Hamill

O'Leprosy wrote: »

I think Ground and Pound is spoiling the action in the UFC and MMA.

I think you need to differentiate "Ground and Pound" and "lay and Pray". To me GnP is where you aim to take someone down, end up in mount and hit them till they submit or get a TKO (you can do it from guard too- see Fedor), while LnP is where you aim to take someone down end up in a dominant position and hope that you can stay there for 25 mins and get a points decision (the "Pray" aspect of it).
GnP is a vital part of MMA and should be encouraged.
LnP is a boring stalemating piece of crap that has nothing to de with fighting of any kind and should be heavily penalised for not being in the spirit of MMA at all, ie: trying to be the best fighter

FiannaGym.com

I suppose a problem people often state is that in the UFC particularly there is an "I must not loose" attitude, rather than in other orgs where the aim is to win.

In Japan the win loose record doesnt matter as much as the fighters heart and display of courage, this makes for more exciting fights and fighters putting it all on the line.

Peace