[Article] Luas Style Priority for Dublin Bus

markpb

(c) Ireland.com

Dublin Bus is to get priority at traffic lights, similar to that provided for Luas, under a new programme to help its buses meet timetables.

As part of an estimated €15 million contract due to be signed, up-to-the minute passenger information will be provided at major bus stops. The system, which uses GPS, will tell passengers when the next bus is due.

The plan aims to overhaul how the fleet operates and to counter one of the biggest problems facing the company: increasing delays due to congestion and the resulting disruption to timetables for customers.

According to Dublin Bus, within two years its busiest bus stops will have screens showing exactly when the next bus on each route is due, based on a GPS system which will be installed in the entire fleet.

This information will also be made available to passengers online or on their phone. Updated information is provided by a computer system which will recalculate the position of the bus every 30 seconds using GPS.

This data is then compared with its scheduled location before an updated arrival time is sent to display units at bus stops along the route.

Donal Keating, operations support manager with Dublin Bus, said a preferred bidder for the contract has been identified from three shortlisted companies following a tender process. The Dublin Bus board is due to consider this recommendation before the end of the year.

"It became obvious that with the city slowing down due to congestion, this information was going to become more important and we were starting to lag behind what Irish Rail and Luas were doing," Mr Keating said.

Dublin Bus also expects the system to help its fleet counter delays caused by congestion.

"The system won't try to rig the lights for individual buses. But on major bus corridors it might hold the lights green for longer to keep the buses moving," Mr Keating said.

"However, the system will be flexible enough so that at certain times where there is only a bus on approach, a small transmitter will send a signal to the traffic lights and they will stay or come back to green," he said.

The new Dublin Bus technology is also going to be linked to the traffic management system (SCATS) used by Dublin City council.

"Dublin City council's system will know where our buses are at all times and this will allow us to respond to delays or log jams," Mr Keating said.

One requirement of the project is that the design will allow it to be easily extended to an outside, private operator.

"If another operator equips their fleet with transponders, they too can join the system. And it is being designed so that it would be possible for the Dublin Transport Authority to take over the real-time passenger element and perhaps link it with other public transport passenger information," Mr Keating said.

Dublin Bus expects that more than 1,000 of its busiest 5,000 bus stops will be fitted with the display screens. The contract is due to be signed in the coming weeks, with work on the project starting early next year.

"Hopefully by 2009 you will start to see this on the streets and it will be complete by 2010," Mr Keating said.

The company hopes that the new system will remove the uncertainty over when the next bus is due.

Many European cities now have similar systems for their bus fleets. Dublin Bus project officials visited Edinburgh, Munich and Brighton to examine passenger information systems in operation.

These cities each have a similar system operated by one of the short-listed bidders for the Dublin Bus contract. Dublin Bus has conducted trials of similar systems in recent years and does not expect any resistence from staff to the new technology.

MiniD

Dublin Bus is to get priority at traffic lights, similar to that provided for Luas, under a new programme to help its buses meet timetables.

As part of an estimated €15 million contract due to be signed, up-to-the minute passenger information will be provided at major bus stops. The system, which uses GPS, will tell passengers when the next bus is due.

It's like 1992 all over again. When CitySwift launched on route 39, this technology was hyped. It was recognised back then as being an important tool in keeping buses moving, and the "next bus due" was also heavily promoted in the early 90s. Now in 2007, 15 years later, it's still being talked about and promised.

Like the magical "Smart Card", I'll believe it when I see it.

Mimikyu

This post has been deleted.

patrickc

would be fantastic if it worked though.

John R

Firstly LOL at the title. I would like to see "LUAS Style Priority" for the LUAS to begin with. Journey times on the Red line are still far too slow and it is entirely to do with road crossings.

MiniD wrote: »

It's like 1992 all over again. When CitySwift launched on route 39, this technology was hyped. It was recognised back then as being an important tool in keeping buses moving, and the "next bus due" was also heavily promoted in the early 90s. Now in 2007, 15 years later, it's still being talked about and promised.

Like the magical "Smart Card", I'll believe it when I see it.

Indeed. As always it is not the technical problems that halt progress it is the quicksand of Irish politics.

At least there is a good chance of the RTPI happening, if DB are signing the contract then the money is in place and once the contract is signed it is too late for meddlers in DOT or wherever to pull the plug.

As for the Priority measures, until I can actually travel on a bus that is waved through a bunch of busy Dublin streets it is wishful thinking IMO. It simply onvolves too many self-interested government agencies, notably DCC who threw Dublin Bus out of their traffic control room some years ago because it was their toy.

AlekSmart

It works alright,but I`m not so sure of the sudden outbreak of harmony between The City Council and Bus Atha Cliath....that I will defer judgement on :rolleyes:

Interestingly there already was a working forerunner of this back in the dark ages (Mid/Late 1980`s ?)
It was known as Selective Bus Detection (SBD) and was installed at several junctions around the City.
Templeogue Bridge and Cookstown Rd/Belgard Rd were 2 that I know of.
In fact up until relatively recently the roadside transponders were still there strapped to lamp standards in mute testimony to what MIGHT have been.

Equally interestingly is that from memory I recall SBD was far more all singing/all dancing than this new Digital system Mr Keating is describing (In somewhat muted tones)

"The system won't try to rig the lights for individual buses. But on major bus corridors it might hold the lights green for longer to keep the buses moving,"

That word "might" just does`nt fill me with confidence...


For example SBD COULD detect individual buses/duties and could EXTEND the red signal phase to hold a bus which was running ahead of time as well as using the green to prioritize late runners.

I`m also a little puzzzled by the bit about junctions where there would only be a Bus on approach.....Such a location would no doubt feature on a UN protected zone I fear.

Again from memory I think Dublin Fire Brigade were also involved in the SBD trials which ran it`s course before slipping beneath the waves as Fiscal Rectitude curtailed all sorts of Public Transport Infrastructural programmes,a shortsightedness we are paying a heavy price for today .... :mad:

Traffic

DCC who threw Dublin Bus out of their traffic control room some years ago because it was their toy.

This statement is false. A senior inspector from Dublin bus is in the DCC traffic contol room every day during the morning and evening peak.

flogen

What was it about the CitySwift that was so hyped all those years ago?

paulm17781

flogen wrote: »

What was it about the CitySwift that was so hyped all those years ago?

It was meant to have traffic priority etc. I think it was all shelved to make it a bus with different name. :mad:

Victor

Luas doesn't get any priority on street. The only priority it gets is where it is off road.

MiniD

flogen wrote: »

What was it about the CitySwift that was so hyped all those years ago?

When CitySwift first launched on Route 39, in 1992/1993, it was claimed all the new "P" type buses were fitted with equipment which would turn upcoming traffic lights green, in favour of the bus. Many years later, there is little evidence of this happening, and we are now being told it is launching all over again.

Zoney

Of course traffic light installations should be "aware" of buses such that if a bus is on one approach, that approach is treated accordingly (e.g. assume the equivalent of X cars queued).

It really annoys me when car drivers don't let a bus out, or generally act in a selfish way, considering buses carry so many more people. It's like acting selfishly towards an entire queue of cars.

paulm17781

Zoney wrote: »

It really annoys me when car drivers don't let a bus out, or generally act in a selfish way, considering buses carry so many more people. It's like acting selfishly towards an entire queue of cars.

The card driver is probably in more of a rush. :rolleyes:

godtabh

Its very difficult to give bus priority on exisiting road networks. Can work in some places but not others. Only place I can think off is the Liffey Valley slip road on the N4 and at Woddies.

DLRCC have a few proposals in front of them which work well if I do say so myself.

Winters

Victor wrote: »

Luas doesn't get any priority on street. The only priority it gets is where it is off road.

At the majority of signal controlled junctions that it crosses the Luas driver can override the sequence in order to give it green time at the next phase. Its a button the the panel to the right in the cab.

www.currach.ie/pdf/1856079171.pdf
(page 5)

murphaph

kearnsr wrote: »

Its very difficult to give bus priority on exisiting road networks.

Yes it is. Make more streets bus only!

If the political will was there, Dublin could be got moving again. It wouldn't take a fortune. It would take tough decisions which would negatively impact private car drivers and positively impact bus passengers but would ultimately force a large scale mode shift to bus. Nobody has the balls to do it though.

Victor

Winters wrote: »

At the majority of signal controlled junctions that it crosses the Luas driver can override the sequence in order to give it green time at the next phase. Its a button the the panel to the right in the cab.

I understand that only requests are made, not over-ride instructions.

trellheim

yes - for example the system will not automatically give a go to a LUAS. IF there are two nearing the crossing the system will wait till both are ready to cross before giving a go.


On a related matter, should the LUAS get priority over the bus in an on-street face-off ?

You need to assume there is no cars or private transport involved.

loyatemu

trellheim wrote: »

yes - for example the system will not automatically give a go to a LUAS. IF there are two nearing the crossing the system will wait till both are ready to cross before giving a go.


On a related matter, should the LUAS get priority over the bus in an on-street face-off ?

You need to assume there is no cars or private transport involved.

not necessarily - this is the council's excuse for not giving the Luas any preferential treatment at O'Connell St - it would disrupt too many bus routes.

I can't see why the Luas doesn't get priority at other junctions though - Gardiner St for example. the Luas frequently get stopped there in order to allow cars through - even on the basis of pure numbers this is crazy - one half full Luas probably carries as many passengers as 60 cars.

What's the point in spending millions on a transport system just for it to spend half its time at traffic lights. This is also the reason why the Lucan Luas will be a disaster - it will be entirely on-street.

BendiBus

trellheim wrote: »

yes - for example the system will not automatically give a go to a LUAS. IF there are two nearing the crossing the system will wait till both are ready to cross before giving a go.


On a related matter, should the LUAS get priority over the bus in an on-street face-off ?

You need to assume there is no cars or private transport involved.

I'd opt for doing a calculation on the average number of passenger minutes delay resulting from each option.

Saving a Luas with 180 people 30 seconds (90 passenger minutes), would just about justify holding 3 buses with a total of 80 passengers for 60 seconds (80 passenger minutes).

O'Connell St would probably be best to favour buses most of the time, but the passenger-minutes rule prevents holding anyone for too long.

I suppose this would have to be calculated on a junction by junction basis but these calculations could be little more than a rough estimate.

Red Alert

Why is the LUAS not prioritized seen as the technology is physically there? (i.e. loops and controllable lights)

Like with everything - we have the tech tools we need but we lack the will to use them.

trellheim

These are very very simple calculations.

Now for example on O'Connell St. What if the bus or the LUAS is loading and unloading and one blocks the other ?

The BX plan is to cross at two bridges , O-Connell Bridge and a new bridge at Marlboro st/Hawkins St

This means 2 crossings blocking east/west quays traffic for 20-30 secs every 2/3 mins

[ cross time for a 40m tram to dodge pedestrians across a 3 laner [ north and south quays ~ 20 sec ]

freq on extended Green Line = Bx - every 6 mins peak ? -> 2/3 min in both directions ....

how many buses has that messed up if it has priority.

HonalD

Wouldn't it be nice if PEDESTRIANS got some priority in the City Centre...:rolleyes:

tcs

I vote Australia-esque ceding right-of-way to buses pulling off from stops. Think it was Sydney I saw that (could have been Melbourne or even both). There's a yield to buses pulling off type sign on the back of every bus.

A number of considerate drivers in Dublin do stop to let a bus pull off but if it was enforced stringently I suspect bus journey times would improve somewhat.

Victor

HonalD wrote: »

Wouldn't it be nice if PEDESTRIANS got some priority in the City Centre...:rolleyes:

They do, every 2-4 minutes.

Zoney

tcs wrote: »

I vote Australia-esque ceding right-of-way to buses pulling off from stops. Think it was Sydney I saw that (could have been Melbourne or even both). There's a yield to buses pulling off type sign on the back of every bus.

A number of considerate drivers in Dublin do stop to let a bus pull off but if it was enforced stringently I suspect bus journey times would improve somewhat.

I believe you are already supposed to allow buses to pull out; something about it in the ROTR iirc, although ianad (I am not a driver).

trellheim

At 08:58 today counted 15 double-deckers all 60% or more full nose-to-tail between Bord Gais on D'Olier St and around to Trinity ..

RPA saying "Yes, Of Course We can fit a LuAS in there " :mad::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::eek:

Stark

tcs wrote: »

I vote Australia-esque ceding right-of-way to buses pulling off from stops. Think it was Sydney I saw that (could have been Melbourne or even both). There's a yield to buses pulling off type sign on the back of every bus.

A number of considerate drivers in Dublin do stop to let a bus pull off but if it was enforced stringently I suspect bus journey times would improve somewhat.

I thought it was law here that a bus pulling out had right of way. Will have to dig up where I read that...

paulm17781

Stark wrote: »

I thought it was law here that a bus pulling out had right of way. Will have to dig up where I read that...

You seem to imply Irish motorists care about the law governing our roads. More so I'd be interested to see how many people were penalized for not allowing a bus to pull out. :rolleyes::mad:

I counted 3 traffic offenses and one drug deal under the vigilant eyes of the Guards yesterday...

Stark

Well it would be important in an insurance case if a bus forced its way out and a car crashed into it.

paulm17781

Stark wrote: »

Well it would be important in an insurance case if a bus forced its way out and a car crashed into it.

Oh no doubt, I'm more concerned with why traffic is so bad / buses so unreliable.

carlmango11

I think the biggest improvments that can be made to the buses are:

smartcards and prepaid tickets at central stops
more right of way to buses (ie lights go green for them)
better timetables (ie that gps thing)

Considering how long is spent waiting for each person to step on, throw they're money in, the bus driver to quickly check it and click the 2 buttons, the ticket to print and the passenger to walk on, i reckon everyone walking straight on and touching the card would make a big difference.

AlekSmart

Carlmango11,you are dead right.
Before we get all techno-expensive about new hi-tech GPRS,RTPI and AVLS systems we need to step back and examine what can be achieved NOW in terms of setting up a throughput of passengers onto our buses.

The current fare-stage and cash collection system is now probably the single greatest barrier to eficient operation of the Bus service.
I am ignoring the general traffic situation cos it`s not under the control of anybody it would seem.

The passenger numbers alone make the current setup unsustainable and when added to a totally arbitrary City Centre Bus Stop location arrangement then Bus Atha Cliath is strangling itself.....with,of course,the active connivance of the Dept of Transport with whom the RESPONSIBILITY for ALL BAC cash fares lies......Familiar ring to this..now where`s my violin....? :eek:

munchkin_utd

I'm going to agree with ye both that the cash fares are a disaster.

One quick and easy (but probably controvertial) solution would be to double or tripple the current cash fares as a deterent to their use.

With cash fares still available but prohibitively expensive, the use of prepaid and weekly tickets would then be the prefered option.

If you think about it, there should be a decent penalty to deter people from paying the driver in cash as the waiting around is indeed costing dublin bus cash in lost service efficiency.

loyatemu

you could also argue that there are far too many bus stops in some areas. some routes have stops every hundred yards or so.

trellheim

oyster in london is still teething but they are finally getting more of the operators on board and solving all the difficult problems. [ what's the bet we ignore everything they learned :rolleyes::rolleyes: ]

it is very easy to say remove a bus stop or a route from OCS [ O Connell St ] or SSG [ the green ] or westmoreland if you are not a bus operator [ e.g. RPA ] or not a bus user

anyone done a "Platform for Change"/vs rpa/vs DCC/vs Dublin Bus/vs everyone else analysis

look at the OCS LAP .... aaaaggghhhhh

dmeehan

why not have a ticket machine at the bus stop, like the ones at the luas stops, and stop accepting cash on busses. (probably a huge capital expenditure required for this though)

AlekSmart

One of the constantly recurring themes running through Minister Noel Dempsey`s contributions to both Dail Debates and to Oireachtas Committee hearings is his apparent and admitted befuddlement at why the "simple things",such as Park n Ride,are SO difficult to get working.

For a Minister to freely admit to his puzzlement is quite enough for me to have a good idea of where the administrative deficiency really lies :rolleyes:

So it is with our Bus Fare Stage system.

One of Noel`s sayings is how this or that is "Not Rocket Science" particularly in relation to Integrated Ticketing but he uses the term quite freely in debate and perhaps as the Minister responsible for Public Transport he should begin to dig deeper to find out why so much of our work IS exactly that...Rocket Science,or No science at all.

Take,for example the design and specification of our buses.
In the recent past Dublin Bus has introduced articulated buses,tri-axle double deck buses and specified the design of it`s core fleet so as to maximise available seating in the lower saloon.

All very laudable and as a policy it addresses one of the most constant complaints about Londons Buses......The lack of seating in the lower saloons.
In London this arises due to TfL specifying double door arrangements along with straight staircases which eat into available space and result in many London DD designs losing up to 10 seats when compared with their Dublin equivalents.

However deciding to specify only a single entry/exit and in maximising lower saloon seating brings with it serious issues of flow restriction and the resultant lack of speed in passenger throughput.

Neither the Department or Dublin Bus appear concerned at the self-inflicted strangulation which our current fare collection system perpetrates on the public.
This almost medieval ritual of crossing the drivers palm with silver is self defeating and not at all in the interests of efficiency.

The entire thrust of City Centre stops should be refocused on reducing Bus Stop locations by 10% IMMEDIATELY and coincidentally by maximizing the throughput of those remaining.

All major City Centre stops should have a vending/validating machine which would issue discounted tickets whilst the on-bus cash fare should be a FLAT €2...end of !

It remains insanity to specify vehicles with up to 20% extra seating capacity only to make this increase unusable by retaining a cash-handling system of incredible slothfullness....QED anyone ??

trellheim

luas smarts should be taken on buses now - flat fee 1.50 go anywhere to encourage takeup.

carlmango11

What the hell. I just read and saw on the buses that they already have smart card readers installed!!!! Since Spring 2006!!! What the hell!? Why is it taking a year and a half and counting to get a card out!?!?!?! :mad::mad:

AlekSmart

Well may Carlmango go "What the Hell" as he struggles with the Irish Civil Service`s notion of a TimeLine.

Dublin Bus has been on the starting blocks for over 2 years on this system with the sole restraining influence being a set of Government Departments who by all accounts were not in communication with each other and therefore were not communicating with anybody else,including their Minister,either :rolleyes:

The issue has been well covered here and elsewhere,with the rather typically Irish outcome of Nobody being responsible for a vast amount of public funds spent on absolutely...... N O T H I N G ! (Except....Consultancy services )

However its always easy to do ourselves down too

Londons Oyster Card is constantly referred to as the Best Practice example of such devices BUT its introduction and roll-out was not without some serious Internal Wrangling which was only overcome thanks to some serious straight thinking and talking from a VERY powerful Mayoralty and its centralized Transport Authority.....which of course is one of the items being "Brought Forward" in the next Dail Session.....is`nt it ??

Paris too is having it`s teething problems with its Navigo Card,now due to roll out in stages from Spring 08.

Initially the Navigo will replace the Carte Orange MCV periodic ticket,with two seperate grades of Navigo available one for Parisian Residents or those working within the Isle de France region.
This type of Navigo will I understand be integrated with the somewhat byzantine French Taxation system (L`impot) in much the same vein as our Taxsaver operates (Perhaps our Francophones can dot the T`s for us ?)

The other grade will be for general use,but as with Londons Oyster,this non-Native Parisian one will not replaced if lost and will have a €5 charge for it`s issue.

Also worth noting is that since June 2007 the general Paris Public Transport Tariff has been €1.50.

The usual discounts apply for 10 journey carnet`s bought from Vending Machines or Ticket Agents BUT one major restriction was reintroduced when the Fare increased......The €1.50 Travel t+ Cash ticket purchased ON THE BUS can no longer be used for Bus/Bus transfers :mad:

Presumably this is an example of Gallic Carrot and Stick in attempting to nudge the already small percentage of Cash Payers into pre-paying for their Journeys.

The same €1.50 Travel t+ ticket bought off-bus in carnet form for €11.10 (€1.11 per journey) IS available for Bus/Bus transfer within 90 Minutes of validation,a situation remarkably similar to our Travel90 setup.

So if we are patient I`m fully confident that Our Departments will have some Public Transport Cake available for us to partake of when the current supply of Bread finally runs out... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Victor

AlekSmart wrote: »

This type of Navigo will I understand be integrated with the somewhat byzantine French Taxation system (L`impot) in much the same vein as our Taxsaver operates (Perhaps our Francophones can dot the T`s for us ?)

Similar to our PRSI system, local and regional governments are allow add a few percent to the entire payroll to help pay for local transport, the advantage is everyone pays, but the bulk of the benefit goes to the regular users.

antoinolachtnai

OK, first thing. Smartcard systems are complicated things to roll out. It takes a lot of time. Ideally it would be just a matter of rolling out some card readers. But in reality it's a lot more complicated than that.

Secondly, on traffic priority for buses. This really only works in the 'burbs and further out, not in the city centre. Why? Because, in the city centre, the situation where a bus is approaching from only one direction is very infrequent. There are almost always buses queuing in all directions from junctions of any consequence. You have to consider the buses that are still 500m from the junction, not just the ones that are right up at it. There's no meaningful way to avoid delaying another bus when you prioritize one. Prioritizing late buses is not really a goer either. It's hard to identify a late bus for a start, but more importantly, when one bus is late, chances are it is because of congestion and as a result all the buses in the other directions will be late as well to some degree.

On the other hand, you can do this sort of thing in the suburbs and further out where there often aren't an awful lot of buses, and most of the buses are radial (and so there is a predominant 'bus axis' on the junction). By flipping a light at the right time on a road where a bus lane up to the lights isn't possible because of road space, you could save two or three minutes on the journey, which adds up to tens of thousands of minutes a year. A bus lane is still going to be a more effective measure though if it is possible.

It won't make all that much immediate difference in itself though. It's by doing all the different things in concert that you get the improvement.

I am doubtful on whether reducing the number of stops would really make much difference to anything. Loading time, not the time spent decelerating and accelerating is what slows things down. (Of course, that is not to say that there shouldn't be express buses ...) Having fewer stops will just increase the amount of time the bus will have to stop at each of the new super-stops.

There is definitely a big shortage of bus stop space and bus parking space in the city centre of dublin. In my view the big operator has just not lobbied hard enough on this but there are obviously lots of factors involved.